I welcome feedback on backdrops

[Les Mavor]

Hi. Allow me to introduce myself (and my wife, Janet). I model June, 1959, and enjoy operation as well as painting and hand-laying track.
Retired after a long career in the financial industry, and being a lifetime model RRer (NMRA member since 1973), I wanted to keep busy in an area related to my hobby interests-model RRing and photography. Looking at those many blank areas around my train room over the years, I always wanted to hide the paint behind some photos that would help carry my layout image beyond the "far side" of the tracks. In 2004, I tried my hand at backdrop design, and our small company introduced our first efforts at the Picton (On) train show in September, 2004. The results were encouraging, so we continued to expand, and in 2005, started offering our line of kits to full-line hobby shops. The reception we received has been superb.
WE WELCOME FEEDBACK. We are model RRers, producing for model RRers, and our products are only as good as the value they add to a fellow modeler's railroading experience. How long should a scene be? How high? What types of scenes are hard to find? How can we make our products better without adding to the cost? What is missing from the offerings of all the current backdrop producers that would make a difference for you? Thanks for sharing.

[Les Mavor]

I overlookedsigning my last post, captioned as above. Sorry.
YES, we do welcome feedback.

Les Mavor
http://www.sceniking.com

[Anonymous]

I really like the length of the HO backgrounds but most of them seem a bit short to me. The 13" should be minimum but I would prefer something taller. I would think 18-24 would be nice. (I couldn't use the 7.5" myself)

Your selection and prices seem very good. I actually have already been to this site before and was thinking about getting some. (but they are just too short for me....)

[Les Mavor]

Hi Tukaram
I enjoyed my tour of your web site, and seeing the progress you and the kids are making on your layout. I also have a photo (slide) taken back in the early '80s of my daughter perched on a stool in the centre of my layout.....and you could tell her enthusiasm by the scowl on her face! She's since mellowed.

One observation that I note about your layout room: In our area, modellers generally fini***he walls with drywall, and paint it an acceptable shade of sky blue (whatever that is-changes by the hour every day). This might be an unacceptable option in some situations, particularly in climates or areas subject to high summer humidity and potential for mildew or mould. We found in our early experimentation that visual perception tends to lead eyes following a moving train to the area around that train and directly behind it, and that the areas above the immediate scenery usually lost "importance". Our backdrop images are trackside, in-scale photographs rather than visual panoramas, and in most cases, everything above the actual HO or N scale structures, etc, is just blue sky. Using a backdrop 7.5" high enables a modeller to detail the essential area without the unnecessary hassle and expense of buying and installing a sky that can be cheaply simulated with a little paint. We do offer two kits (X001 & X002) which are limitless sky, for those with that preference, but responses received to date from users tend to prefer the lower cost and value provided by a kit that sticks to the essentials. This being said, we do offer some of our HO kits with either 13"(more sky) or 7.5" height, but the latter far outsell the former due to cost. Many modellers cut the individual images from the scene and mount them, either on a solid backing for added depth of field, or directly on the painted wall for a complete scene.
You probably noted that all the O scale scenes are a minimum of 13"high, for the same reasons outlined above.
We also do custom jobs, time permitting, to help modellers deal with unusual applications. I would welcome the opportunity (off-line) to review your plans and offer suggestions. Thank-you for checking us out and providing some interesting feedback. I wish you and your family much pleasure in your railroading adventure.

Les

[TBat55]

I think some better "Specs" would help:

What material is this?

How are the backdrops mounted (installation instructions)?
I plan on using rolls of styrene (http://www.interstateplastics.com/detail.aspx?ID=StyrenesheetGP-SB1012).

Can I just spray glue and mount your products or will they wrinkle?

How tough is the surface relative to bumps, bends, or scratches? Humidity required?

[Anonymous]

I two would like something alittle taller even if it just had sky...and more Chioces for N scale. what would it take to get some photos made into a backdrop?

[Les Mavor]

Re previous input above:

I think some better "Specs" would help:

When we work with these products constantly, it is easy to take for granted that other viewers are "mind-readers", so the specs shown under each image in our catalogue, and on Page 7, combined with the explanations on page 6 seemed, to us, to cover this area, but we are probably wrong. Could you tell us what questions are not well answered? We want to leave nothing to chance, and this is very important to us.

What material is this?

24 pound bond paper. We found that this provided the best value while still allowing for seamless assembly.

How are the backdrops mounted (installation instructions)?
I plan on using rolls of styrene (http://www.interstateplastics.com/detail.aspx?ID=StyrenesheetGP-SB1012).

The intent of our product line is economy for the average modeller on a tight hobby budget. The choice of mounting format is up to the modeller. We have been told buy various users that they:
-applied the scene to a wall in the same manner as wallpaper, using a spray adhesive;
-assembled the kit and then mounted it, using the glue stick, directly on the wall;
-mounted the assembled scene on a solid movable mount, and then placed it in its intended position;
-cut the images from the assembled backdrop and mounted that directly on their pre-painted sky-coloured wall;
-cut portions from the kit and used them in various areas to accent or connect other scenes;
-cut out individual buildings and mounted them independently on cardstock or foamcore to place separately for a three-dimensional view.
-used our products in concert with those of other backdrop producers to achieve the scene they wanted.
-styrene sheet (not too expensive?) is bendable and could be great for "bending" a scene around a corner in a layout room for a smooth, continuous vista;
-the options are only limited by one's imagination, but that is one of the real joys in our hobby.


Can I just spray glue and mount your products or will they wrinkle?

Like any kit requiring some assembly, everyone's ability is different. Under careful assembly, there should be no problem. My wife is a pretty good wallpaper hanger. I decided years ago that this is one job I'm not cut out for.

How tough is the surface relative to bumps, bends, or scratches? Humidity required?

Normal care of any part of a layout is to be expected. Anything can be scratched or marked. I had a fellow operator take out a series of telegraph poles with his elbow one night. On page 6 of our catalogue, we discuss the water issue. We found that my wife's hair spray worked well (and cheaply) in protecting the printing. I don't know if all sprays would work, so we recommend testing on a scrap piece.
--------------------
We don't produce a product suitable to all modellers, but we do add another dimension to the variety of quality layout enhancers available to to-days lucky model railroaders.

Lesmavor

[Les Mavor]

Re:

I two would like something alittle taller even if it just had sky...and more Chioces for N scale. what would it take to get some photos made into a backdrop?

We can make a scene as tall as a modeller wants it....but we are trying to provide quality, ground-level-photographic scale images that can enable a modeller to fill the most important area of his layout - the blank space right behind that moving train. Examples posted on our web site show various results achieved. When I finished drywalling my train room, the next thing I did was pull out a pile of my train slides, and ran through them comparing sky colours. The variance was amazing; then I settled on a soft light blue, considered the artificial lighting that the room would have, and bought the paint. The sky colour seen in X001/2 sky backdrops reflects my experience, although it is taken from actual photos done on a beautiful June afternoon. We do custom jobs (time permitting), so if a modeller wants more sky on a scene and will pay for it, we'll do it, and in whatever colour they want.

I'd very much like to see the photos you would like in a backdrop scene. You could e-mail them, and we could discuss the potential off-line. [:)]

Lesmavor

[TBat55]

Thanks, you answered my questions. Just add your replies to your website, maybe in a FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) section. 24# paper is durable enough, spray adhesive like Elmers and a glue stick sound OK, never would have thought of hair spray.

[Les Mavor]

Re: .....never would have thought of hair spray.

That idea came from modeller feedback at a train show. Our participation in train shows has proved invaluable in helping to "mature" the line.

We will build a FAQ section and include it in our next site revision.

That's a super canyon in your photo....like to see more of your layout.

Les

[pcarrell]

Hi Les,

I like your product, and I may be looking further into it (I bookmarked it) in about a year when my new house is finished being built, but I would be careful about this thread. I don't think you are allowed to advertise on the forum. You do have a fine product, and I support homespun companies such as yourselves, but I wouldn't want you to end up with a problem on this forum because of a rule infraction that you may not have even been aware of, thats all.

[Les Mavor]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

Hi Les,

I like your product, and I may be looking further into it (I bookmarked it) in about a year when my new house is finished being built, but I would be careful about this thread. I don't think you are allowed to advertise on the forum. You do have a fine product, and I support homespun companies such as yourselves, but I wouldn't want you to end up with a problem on this forum because of a rule infraction that you may not have even been aware of, thats all.

Thanks for your note. I guess this is a thin line. If any mention of any product constitutes advertisng, then this forum is loaded with advertising. I learn more about new or better aids to my hobby by word of mouth than any other source. I wasn't aware that my discussion came across as advertising. I'm just seeking feedback to better understand how modellers are perceiving my work, and this discussion has been quite helpful. I will keep your good counsel.

Lesmavor

[ereimer]

QUOTE: f any mention of any product constitutes advertisng, then this forum is loaded with advertising

(following is my opinion only , not the policy of this forum)
if the person mentioning the product doesn't sell or make the product , doesn't work for the company selling or making the product , isn't a friend or relative of anyone who owns the company selling or making the product ... etc. etc. , then it isn't advertising , it's a helpful recomendation from one forum member to another .

(back to the original subject)
i think i saw your product at a train show in Toronto last year . probably saw you too . it's a really great product and it's nice to see a canadian company doing something neat like this .
however ... i think you need to take a vacation in arizona ... take a lot of photos , make some desert and mountain backdrops . yeah , yeah that's what you need to do


[:D]

[Anonymous]

Your post didn't strike me as "over the line"... And I tend to be sensitive to (and opposed to) the 'advertising in the forums' thing... Now if you come and start answering 20 posts a day, always finding a way to work in a plug for your store, then that would be a different story. There's a guy here who does exactly that for the DCC system he distributes, and I find it very annoying and it actually ensures I would never buy from him.

In general, I like the product, and am in the market for a backdrop, so I've done a lot of looking around. In many ways, I find your stuff very compelling. The pricing is good, and the ability to handle long runs, both by having long scenes to start with, and making some of them repeatable is a BIG plus. I also agree that sky isn't a big thing. I will be 'snipping' the sky out of any backdrop I buy, as my backdrop is already painted with sky...

The site could use some tweaking, as noted above (specs, installation notes, FAQ), but it's already more usable than a couple other notable backdrop vendors...

Now the bad news: The height issue is, quite simply, a deal breaker for me. 7.5" is just not tall enough (and the 13" ones, I understand, are just more sky which is the same thing). I think the missing element in your logic as you respond to that issue is that we're talking about creating a 3-D illusion in a 2-D plane...

Example. If we consider my office window to be a backdrop, the road that runs in front of our building is probably 100' away from the window. Now if I'm sitting in my chair about 2' from the window and look out at the road, the road appears to be 3.5 inches "above" the bottom edge of that window... Though I know in reality the area is totally flat and that road is about 5 feet below the level of my window in physical reality.

The mature maple tree the other side of the road and a little further down (call it 200 feet away) _appears_ to rise 10" from the bottom of my window, and in fact the base of the tree (the "horizon line at that point) only starts at about 4" above the base of the window.

The horizon line (i.e ground level from which everything rises up) is about 6" from the bottom of my window where I can see the furthest away on flat ground (maybe 1/4 mile). In other words, hills, trees, buildings, etc. at that distance don't even _start_ until 6" from the 2-D "bottom" of our "backdrop"...

Bottom line: If you had 24" backdrops, with the relevant proportion of scenery (i.e. not just an 8" scene with 16" of sky above it), I'd probably be inking an order! I've been looking for the right backdrop for a long time, and you've got everything right but the height...

I'd guess that I'd need at least 12-14" of scenery (from foreground where it 'joins' my scenery to top of scenic elements, excluding sky) to work with for it to look right. Consider that my track and "real" scenery are rising and falling while the "horizon line" would not. So with your current height, if my track is at 'ground' level, your scenery is up to maybe 6" above it. But if my track rises to 6" or higher (as it certainly does), it's now "so high" that there's no horizon or view behind it? Or, I have to cut and raise part of the backdrop, creating a very 'fake' looking change in the horizon line.

I understand your reasoning on the height issue, I'm just saying as a potential customer, no amount of rationalization will change the fact that it won't work for me. There's a reason most HO backdrops are a) in the 24" high range and b) ~66-75% of height is scenery versus sky.

[Anonymous]

One more observation:

You do say this in a prior post, but as I went through more and more, I noticed that your backdrops _are_ in fact almost entirely near-range images with no distance, fade-off to the horizon, etc.

So it's arguable that the "height" issue and this issue are really two sides of the same coin, in which case I'd say that having a full-depth backdrop is a requirement for me and the "foreground only" backdrops wouldn't work... Now, I think you'll need more 'height' to do full-depth, which is why I say it's the same issue looked at differently...

But the fact remains, for me personally, I'd need hills fading away to the distance in the hill scenes, taller buildings shown "in the distance" for urban scenes, etc.

[Les Mavor]

Re:
Your post didn't strike me as "over the line"... And I tend to be sensitive to (and opposed to) the 'advertising in the forums' thing... Now if you come and start answering 20 posts a day, always finding a way to work in a plug for your store, then that would be a different story. There's a guy here who does exactly that for the DCC system he distributes, and I find it very annoying and it actually ensures I would never buy from him.

Thank-you for your observation. I, too, find “infomercials” single-sided and annoying. My interest is in learning through discussion, and this exercise is only worthwhile if it adds to the enjoyment of our fantastic hobby.


Your observations are well grounded. We accent trackside scale-sized images, intended to represent elements adjacent to the track. As I interpret your input, you want a panoramic vista. I prefer to leave scenes not intended to start at trackside to others, and there are some excellent products available in that market. Both genres can often work hand-in-glove. There is no escaping the fact that a 2-storey HO structure is only about 4” tall, and that a 4-storey structure across the street from it is only about 5” tall in perspective. In a trackside image, that leaves plenty of room for sky. We intend to show a scene as it would appear to someone standing at trackside, not if they were flying over it or standing on a hill looking down.

Quote: ‘Example. If we consider my office window to be a backdrop, the road that runs in front of our building is probably 100' away from the window. Now if I'm sitting in my chair about 2' from the window and look out at the road, the road appears to be 3.5 inches "above" the bottom edge of that window... Though I know in reality the area is totally flat and that road is about 5 feet below the level of my window in physical reality.”

The intent in my design is that the bottom of the backdrop be the part of the image that is closest to the rail line, seen as you would when standing close to the tracks, and at track level. If you check scenes such as R009 or U008, you will note that they reflect the same perspective as your quote above; however, if you check U011 or C002, these scenes are abruptly bordering on the rail line, and if you were standing beside the track, there would be little perspective height between the far side of the ballast and the doors, windows or loading docks. I prefer to see my layout the same way the mice see it as they skirt around through the rail yard. As much as anything, its all a matter of viewing angle and perspective, and one of the reasons that our diverse hobby can be so much fun. [:)]

Les

[Les Mavor]

(back to the original subject)
i think i saw your product at a train show in Toronto last year . probably saw you too . it's a really great product and it's nice to see a canadian company doing something neat like this .
however ... i think you need to take a vacation in arizona ... take a lot of photos , make some desert and mountain backdrops . yeah , yeah that's what you need to do


[:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lesmavor

We accent trackside scale-sized images, intended to represent elements adjacent to the track. As I interpret your input, you want a panoramic vista.

Yep, nail-on-head. In the end, it seems I'm looking for something different than what you sell. Should I need a only-trackside backdrop in the future, I'd certainly consider these.

[pcarrell]

I didn't mean to imply that you were over the line on the advertising thing. I don't think you are. I think what you're doing is refining a product based on personal feedback. I'm not sure what stand the host's of this forum would take on that. I'm just saying, as you pointed out, it's a fine line.

My thoughts on this are more along the lines of "I wish more companies did this kind of product research to determine what we modelers REALLY want". It seems that so many products out there are very hit and miss in the way they impact the market. The company thinks this product or that product might fly, so they throw a few out there and see what happens. The apporoach that you're doing is more like "Hey, what is it you guy's would really like to see?" kind of marketing. This line of thinking can only be good for us modelers.

Now as to the product itself;

I agree that more sky would be good. I model in N scale and there is 18 inches seperation showing between the two modeled deck on my layout. Actually, theres no seperation because I had to tear it down to move, but there WAS 18 inches, and there will be on the new layout.

Also, more distance in the backdrop would be good. I can model the forground. If my shelf is to thin to model the foreground then flats will work. Out in the "countryside" I need to imply vast distances. The horizon is further out there then most of the backdrops I see on your site. I should be able to see the hill a half mile away and then peeking out around the corner of that one I should see a hill a mile and a half away. In the plains areas of the country I should see houses and trees that are miles away. In the city things tighten up a bit. Buildings are closer and the horizon is harder to see. Closer is OK in the city. I think the way you've done it looks pretty good to me for the city scenes.

Don't get me wrong, I think you're on the right track, and many of these backdrops would work in many situations. You're doing fine quality work by the looks of it, but some of these things might broaden the appeal of your product.

Just some thoughts........

[Les Mavor]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

I didn't mean to imply that you were over the line on the advertising thing. I don't think you are. I think what you're doing is refining a product based on personal feedback. I'm not sure what stand the host's of this forum would take on that. I'm just saying, as you pointed out, it's a fine line.

My thoughts on this are more along the lines of "I wish more companies did this kind of product research to determine what we modelers REALLY want". It seems that so many products out there are very hit and miss in the way they impact the market. The company thinks this product or that product might fly, so they throw a few out there and see what happens. The apporoach that you're doing is more like "Hey, what is it you guy's would really like to see?" kind of marketing. This line of thinking can only be good for us modelers.

Now as to the product itself;

I agree that more sky would be good. I model in N scale and there is 18 inches seperation showing between the two modeled deck on my layout. Actually, theres no seperation because I had to tear it down to move, but there WAS 18 inches, and there will be on the new layout.

Also, more distance in the backdrop would be good. I can model the forground. If my shelf is to thin to model the foreground then flats will work. Out in the "countryside" I need to imply vast distances. The horizon is further out there then most of the backdrops I see on your site. I should be able to see the hill a half mile away and then peeking out around the corner of that one I should see a hill a mile and a half away. In the plains areas of the country I should see houses and trees that are miles away. In the city things tighten up a bit. Buildings are closer and the horizon is harder to see. Closer is OK in the city. I think the way you've done it looks pretty good to me for the city scenes.

Don't get me wrong, I think you're on the right track, and many of these backdrops would work in many situations. You're doing fine quality work by the looks of it, but some of these things might broaden the appeal of your product.

Just some thoughts........

I guess one of the questions that begs an answer is: 'How much is a modeller prepared to pay just to add height to a background image?' In our design work we aim to keep the price of a kit so low that any modeller can gain benefit from the product, and be able to add height by less expensive means, such as paint. As I've said before, if a modeller wants more height and is willing to pay the price, we can provide it. Many thanks for your worthwhile views. [:)]

Les
PS I like your photo pages-plenty of nostalgia.

[TBat55]

Maybe you could also offer paint that EXACTLY color-matches the backdrops for the additonal height. I never seem to get it right.

[pcarrell]

Les,

Your prices are quite good for what you're doing. I don't think anyone would disagree there. Maybe an option for more sky at a given price would be the ticket. I don't know that paper, ink, production costs, and all that are, so it's hard for me to set a fair price. I think it's more of you saying something like "well for X amount we can do this, or if you need that it will run Y amount more" kind of thing. Tbat55 may have hit on yet another option with the paint thing, although I think I'd rather have the photo quality throughout.

Also, the photo's on my page are from the local museum and the surrounding area. I would have pics of the layout I just took down, but I didn't have any digital pics of it and I just got the account. Oh well, next time......

[JohnWPowell]

I think you have a very good product . i myself have been looking at back drops and i really like yours!! John

[Anonymous]

The only problem with the short height of the sky, I think, would be hiding or blending in the edge of the 24# paper, not the color of the sky. That can be matched by a paint store.

As for myself, I model the N&W in the eastern hills of the U.S. which is much hazier than the clear skis shown in most backdrops. So I want the details and colors of the background to be a bit muted for representing the eastern hills. In fact, one of the books on backdrops I've read, it says that the backdrop shouldn't be so crisp and detailed that it takes away the attention of the viewer from the layout. In other words, the background shouldn't look better than the foreground. That's why I'm leaning towards a painted backdrop.

I had planned to take a trip to photograph to some of the spots I want to model but, since 9/11, the police are just too paranoid now. Anyone and everyone with a camera is under suspicion of terrorism. It just takes one freaked out idiot with a cell phone to call the police on you. And I sure wouldn't want to deal with a southern cop that has a hair up his or her kiester, especially since I'm from a Northern town that has the largest Arab population in the U.S.. And, even though I'm of Polish / British-Canadian heritage, I've been mistaken for an Arab by a road rage maniac that didn't like my car. Fortunately I have found photos and videos of the scenes I like.

Nevertheless, I can use photo backdrops. I could cutout the skyline and mount the backdrop on a ridged cardstock and place it between the layout and painted backdrop. Lighting might have to be adjusted as to not cast a shadow on the backdrop. Edges can be hidden by trees or buildings