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Randy, Sounds like a regular rats nest. I would suggest a careful deliniation of the design parameters might be helpful. I took a look again at your website and the drawing of the basement and the layout section that is completed. It appears that this section is in the short part of the" L" and would be connected to the longer part of the basement . It also appears that you want to avoid running on the walls next to the door, furnace etc.... Thus necessitating the turnback you were speaking of instead of an around the walls idea. It also sounds as if we are talking single deck. I begin to lose the train of thought at the dicussion of the two competing lines and the idea of persons nixing the traffic in one direction or another. It sounds like there might be too many chefs (which appears to be unavoidable in your situation). A few observations etc... 1. are you suggesting with the double mainline idea that both lines will return through the scene creating a four track run through ( two coming and two going)??? 2. The idea of empties going in both directions or loads runing in both directions appears to be a non-sequitor because most layout designs will have this problem when any train is run in a loop and not point to point. 3. I totally agree with your dislike of hidden track. My last layout had half of the loop in hidden trackage and while I didn't have too many problems with it, I would not reccomend it as standard operating proceedure. My new layout has 300' of hidden staging and track, mostly in the helix and staging yards. This is my deal with the devil and I will let you know how it worked out in five years from now!!! I kept that track pretty acessible and turnouts out where they could be reached. 4. The industry idea described by Pcarrell is a solution for your loads in operation, but doesn't solve the run through problem. 5. What scenes or operation are a must have in your book? It seems to me that you and your father in law will not get exactly what you want from this layout so you should both get a little of what you each want and compromise on the rest. Let him have the bridge, you get a scene that you want etc..... 6. I think that you can avoid the extra track by making one main line eastbound run it around the loop at the turnback and have it return throught the scene as the westbound main. You will have a pair of mainlines running along through each scene next to each other. This avoids the spaghetti bowl look and means that you won't have to hide track. You can then have room for scenery and industires along the main. You will have such a long run that it shouldn't be a problem as far as not being able to run lots of trains.... 7. Staging might be possible as a stub end yard 7" below the main deck connected to a two turn helix. You could store quite a few trains in a 15' long section. I have this on my new layout and it works well. Most people will tell you that you need at least a foot of clearance between decks but these are unusual circumstances.... 8. How much do you value scenery and prototype look versus being able to run lots of trains??? Do your father in law and you agree on this point??? If you were to go with the run trains approach you would have track every where with little room for scenery. the other approach could yield quite a spectacular scenic layout with only minimal provisions for train running. It would seem to me that maybe the scenery could be more generic and have the trains themselves create the look of hte PRR or the Reading... What ever you do, I think that it will take some effort on the political side of things...We all like to the master of our own empires...Hope this is helpful.. Guy
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