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Creating streets at correct level for embedded rail, sidewalks, etc.

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  • Member since
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Creating streets at correct level for embedded rail, sidewalks, etc.
Posted by crossthedog on Tuesday, September 5, 2023 10:47 PM

Here's my thing: up to now I've had my buildings just sitting on plywood in a rough approximation of some streets. I'm about to commit by spreading a layer of Sculptamold on the plywood. Here's the view:

My quandary is how to get the correct levels for all the various components of the infrastructure here. Even if I didn't have a spur coming through the middle of town, I would have to raise the buildings up a little because the bottoms of the doors have to be above the top of the sidewalks. So there's that. But the sidewalks cannot lie directly atop the plywood because the street needs to have some thickness to it so that the rails can be embedded in the street. I suppose there could be a little rise going up and over the track but not much. So I'm looking at about an eighth of an inch of Sculptamold in the street, and even more (or something else but higher) under the buildings.

My question is... am I missing anything? is this going to work? I know a lot of you must have started on flat surfaces. I also realize I asked a different version of this question earlier, but I hadn't yet decided on plaster at that time. So I'm aware that some of you may not feel like addressing this again, but I'd love to hear from any of you who used Sculptamold or plaster or hydrocal to build up streets.

I'm resolved on the Sculptamold path for the nonce, not currently entertaining roll-out street sections or foam. I have the bag o' powder already, just unsure of the way forward.

-Matt

 

Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.

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Posted by NScale4x8 on Wednesday, September 6, 2023 9:49 PM

I use Kato Unitrack (NScale). The integrated roadbed represents highly maintained main-line track with excellent drainage.

For industrail spurs, rails embedded in roads, etc., I use two techniques:

1) Foam core board is the right height to bring terrain up to the level of the railroad ties. I scenic over the foam core board, and the result looks like the track is not elevated at all.

2) I use sheet cork which is about half the thikness of the foam core. I scenic over the cork, and the result looks like poorly maintained roadbed.

Overhead view

Overhead view

https://nscale4by8.github.io/nscale4x8/

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Posted by AEP528 on Thursday, September 7, 2023 8:22 AM

I use sheet foam to build up the road height, then finish the surface with plaster or something similar. I model a rural area where there are no sidwalks, but I still add foundations under the buildings to get them up to or above street level. Then I use sculptamold to fill in the landform around the foundations.

I've used cork sheet in the past to raise the overall areas, and it's been hit or miss regarding the material composition of the "cork" and it's reaction to water-based scenery construction.

  • Member since
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  • From: Southern Florida Gulf Coast
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Posted by SeeYou190 on Thursday, September 7, 2023 12:08 PM

crossthedog
I'm resolved on the Sculptamold path for the nonce, not currently entertaining roll-out street sections or foam. I have the bag o' powder already, just unsure of the way forward.

Matt... I wish I had pictures. I will do my best.

When I built my first HO layout, it was a 2 by 8 switching layout with tracks in streets, sidewalks, and lots of pavement. All track was Atlas code 100 with Shinohara code 100 turnouts. This layout was started in 1993.

Anywhere tracks ran through pavement, I removed the ties. The bottom of the rails was all epoxied to 0.080" plastic card. 

For streets, I built the curbing and sidewalks first. Then I filled the road using the sidewalks as a guide. The roadway surface material was simply normal joint compound. This was built up in several thin layers and shaped with a sponge.

The road between the rails was cut from thick chip board and glued in place.

Then everything was painted in about ten layers of paint going from medium gray to almost black. Once the paint had dried for about a week I sanded the road with 400 grit paper to expose lighter colors underneath in travel areas. Anywhere I sanded too deep and hit white I painted on a black pothole patch.

The end result was incredible, and material cost was minimal.

-Kevin

Living the dream.

  • Member since
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  • From: Collinwood, Ohio, USA
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Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, September 7, 2023 2:38 PM

For some of my roadways I used a method similar to what Kevin describes. I had plenty of IIRC 3/16 square basswood on hand so I glued and pinned some in place as the boundary of my roadway:

 Crossing_grade_side by Edmund, on Flickr

For the 'mud' I used Durham's Rock Hard Putty which is nice to work with and dries quite solid! I added some Mars black tube acrylic to it. Normally it sets to a light tan color.

 Crossing_grade-forms by Edmund, on Flickr

I used an old $20 gift card as a trowel (for a smoother surface use a $100 card):

 Crossing_road-surface by Edmund, on Flickr

The crossings are Blair Line Curved wood crossings. Each one is a different radius for the five tracks I cross here:

 Crossing_grade-auto by Edmund, on Flickr

Later I added cracks and repair areas using fine artists pens:

 PRR_9854_FP7 by Edmund, on Flickr

For making building 'pads' and some roadways I like to use a ceiling tile product called Genesis. It is a type of expanded PVC and is very smooth and easy to cut:

 Midplan_final-crossing by Edmund, on Flickr

As shown, I'll shim it with cork roadbed or sometimes balsa flat stock.

Good Luck, Ed

 

 

 

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Posted by crossthedog on Thursday, September 7, 2023 8:23 PM

Thanks for taking the time to post thoughts and especially photos (@Kevin, no worries, I know that you are working from memory). I'm seeing that there are two basic ways to go about this: filling up basically a wide shallow trough, as Ed does and as I was planning to do, or building up a foam or cork roadway and then finishing it over with scenery. This is helpful.

NScale4x8
Foam core board is the right height to bring terrain up to the level of the railroad ties. I scenic over the foam core board, and the result looks like the track is not elevated at all.
I wonder if this is the right height for unelevated track lying directly on plywood, as my town spurs are, but I can measure and find that out. It's a good idea.
AEP528
I use sheet foam to build up the road height, then finish the surface with plaster or something similar.
What product of sheet foam, and what thickness? I assume like 1/8 inch or so? and where did you get it?
SeeYou190
Anywhere tracks ran through pavement, I removed the ties.
Yikes! This required careful rail laying with a gauge, nez pah?
SeeYou190
Once the paint had dried for about a week I sanded the road with 400 grit paper to expose lighter colors underneath in travel areas. Anywhere I sanded too deep and hit white I painted on a black pothole patch.
Nice.
gmpullman
As shown, I'll shim it with cork roadbed or sometimes balsa flat stock.
Ed, lovely photos as usual. I see you use both methods, laying all plaster and sometimes laying a submaterial first. I was planning on doing something like your between-the-basswood-boundaries idea, but I'm now thinking that will use up too much of my Sculptamold. I'll probably find some foam or cork or something to build up the streets (and the building foundations even higher), and use the Sculptamold as the top layer so I can carve lines and what-not.

Thanks all.

Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.

  • Member since
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  • From: Collinwood, Ohio, USA
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Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, September 7, 2023 10:02 PM

crossthedog
Ed, lovely photos as usual. I see you use both methods, laying all plaster and sometimes laying a submaterial first.

Thanks, Matt! 

The sub-material is the Genesis board and the asphalt is represented with EVA foam used by various crafters and cosplay artists. Here's a look at the crossing while applying the 2mm EVA foam:

 Midplan_asphalt-crossing by Edmund, on Flickr

The darker foam represents newer asphalt that was paved after the one track to the feed mill had been removed. I get my foam from Amazon but other craft stores will have it in various colors.

 Crossing_4-22c by Edmund, on Flickr

 Feed_Mill_Siding-H by Edmund, on Flickr

 Hadlock_Machine-OA by Edmund, on Flickr

Later, I'll add more shading with powders and cracks with art pens and repaired or tarred areas with black paint.

Good Luck , Ed

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Posted by crossthedog on Thursday, September 7, 2023 10:46 PM

gmpullman
Later, I'll add more shading with powders and cracks with art pens and repaired or tarred areas with black paint.

Very nice. And the old feed store will become a community center and after-school activity club for underserved youth, we hope?

-Matt

Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Collinwood, Ohio, USA
  • 16,367 posts
Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, September 7, 2023 11:14 PM

crossthedog
And the old feed store will become a community center and after-school activity club for underserved youth, we hope?

   — and a great place to grab a Coke!

 

 Coke_Machine_crop by Edmund, on Flickr

Cheers, Ed

  • Member since
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  • From: Southern Florida Gulf Coast
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Posted by SeeYou190 on Friday, September 8, 2023 12:10 AM

crossthedog
Yikes! This required careful rail laying with a gauge, nez pah?

Not at all! I just used a few three point gauges and everything was perfect.

-Kevin

Living the dream.

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • 327 posts
Posted by AEP528 on Friday, September 8, 2023 7:55 AM

crossthedog

What product of sheet foam, and what thickness? I assume like 1/8 inch or so? and where did you get it?

I ended up using Woodland Scenics 1/4" and 1/16" sheets. Combined it's quite close to code 83 track on Midwest cork roadbed. I purchased it at my local craft and hobby store; they didn't have any other un-faced foam sheets to compare to for price, but I don't have many roads so one package of the 1/16" will probably suffice for all of the roads and parking lots on my layout. 

I prefer having the roads elevated above the surface so I can have ditches along the roads and culverts under driveway entrances.

  • Member since
    January 2017
  • From: Southern Florida Gulf Coast
  • 18,255 posts
Posted by SeeYou190 on Friday, September 8, 2023 9:34 AM

gmpullman
For making building 'pads' and some roadways I like to use a ceiling tile product called Genesis. It is a type of expanded PVC and is very smooth and easy to cut:

Genesis is an amazingly useful product to have around.

I bought several tiles of it at Menard's in Ohio the last time I was there. I have not found it in Florida.

I have never used any of it on a layout (yet), but just for general usefulness, you should have some on hand.

-Kevin

Living the dream.

  • Member since
    February 2021
  • 1,110 posts
Posted by crossthedog on Friday, September 8, 2023 1:40 PM

gmpullman
The sub-material is the Genesis board and the asphalt is represented with EVA foam used by various crafters and cosplay artists. Here's a look at the crossing while applying the 2mm EVA foam:

SeeYou190
Genesis is an amazingly useful product to have around.
It's hard to see what the edge looks like in the photos. Is it like foam core?

AEP528
I ended up using Woodland Scenics 1/4" and 1/16" sheets. Combined it's quite close to code 83 track on Midwest cork roadbed. ...I prefer having the roads elevated above the surface so I can have ditches along the roads and culverts under driveway entrances.

Thanks AEP. My railhead is lower in the town area, directly on the plywood, but if they have these different thicknesses then I'm sure I could find the right level to match it.

Thanks,

-Matt

 

Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.

  • Member since
    February 2021
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Posted by crossthedog on Tuesday, September 19, 2023 7:29 PM

Update: I went and got some craft foam, 1/16" thick, to try out first. Nice price ($0.99) and nice color. I'm still holding out the Sculptamold or other plastery mixes as a reserve option, but this looked like a good way to start, especially since two slices laid directly on the plywood brings my street right up to railhead level.

For those of you who went this route (Ed and others in particular above), my questions now are:

  • what would be the best adhesive to use to bond the first piece of foam to the plywood
  • what would be the best adhesive to bond the second piece of foam to the first?
  • If one had Woodland Scenics styrene sidewalks (and one does), what would be the best adhesive to bond the sidewalks to the foam?

I am hoping that reg'lar ol' Elmer's glue would do the job in the first two cases, but I don't know much about sticking foam to stuff. What have you used and what have been your experiences?

As always, thanks,

-Matt 

Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • 327 posts
Posted by AEP528 on Tuesday, September 19, 2023 8:42 PM

crossthedog
For those of you who went this route (Ed and others in particular above), my questions now are: what would be the best adhesive to use to bond the first piece of foam to the plywood what would be the best adhesive to bond the second piece of foam to the first? If one had Woodland Scenics styrene sidewalks (and one does), what would be the best adhesive to bond the sidewalks to the foam? I am hoping that reg'lar ol' Elmer's glue would do the job in the first two cases, but I don't know much about sticking foam to stuff. What have you used and what have been your experiences?

I usually use PL300 or foam safe Liquid Nails for everything, using a scrap of plastic to spread the adhesive. Try to get the surface under the foam as flat as possible.

It's gotten a lot harder to find gallons of Elmer's Glue-all, so I'm saving mine for ballasting and scenery.

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Posted by NScale4x8 on Tuesday, September 19, 2023 8:52 PM

Ordinary yellow wood glue works well as long as the surface is rough. Scratch shallow grooves into foam and the bottom side of styrene sheets. A rough sandpaper works, but I usually just score the back sides in a cross hatch pattern with a utility knife. Spread the glue thin and even. Place weights on the parts as they dry.

 

https://nscale4by8.github.io/nscale4x8/

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Posted by crossthedog on Wednesday, September 20, 2023 7:53 PM

Thanks guys. I don't have any yellow wood glue but I can get some and should have it around anyway. I actually have a tube of PL300 that I used to bond some cast bridge abutments to the layout, but I don't know if it is still good. I barely used any of it, so I covered the tube spout with lots of masking tape. I bet it's hardened.

Anyway, thanks guys.

-Matt

Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.

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