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Does Tree Color Matter?

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Does Tree Color Matter?
Posted by mthobbies on Wednesday, June 23, 2021 1:37 PM

Hi all.

I'm curious, what color trees do you all use for Appalachian mountain scenery? I'm interested in hearing everybody's opinions on what brands, colors, and textures of ground foam make the best Appalacian trees. 

Specifically, I'm using super trees covered in Scenic Express Forrest Green and Green Grass coarse turf and Woodland Scenics Light Green coarse turf. I'm also thinking of using Scenic Express Summer Lawn Flock & Turf to give my trees some highlights. Just curious what everyone else's go-to's are. Post pictures too!

 

Matt

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Wednesday, June 23, 2021 3:09 PM

I don't think specific colors are all that important.  But, in looking at nature I see a lot of variety.  When I put down static grass, each applicator strainer full is different, and I often mix colors with a strainer.  I'm modeling stream beds and hillsides, not lawns and golf courses, so the more chaotic my static grass appears, the better I like it.

One thing I would recommend is using brighter, light colors for young growth, and darker colors for older growth.  People don't see specific colors unless they are looking for a specific tree, but contrast in color really stands out.

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Posted by York1 on Wednesday, June 23, 2021 3:48 PM

I agree with MisterBeasley.  If you look at a group of trees, or just one large tree, you will usually see a range of colors.

I tend to use lighter greens with some darker greens and even some light browns mixed in.

York1 John       

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Posted by Doughless on Wednesday, June 23, 2021 4:01 PM

If you were to use multiple layers of foam, I think starting off with a darker color then moving progressively lighter, just a shade not extreme, would provide more depth.

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Posted by selector on Wednesday, June 23, 2021 5:07 PM

Early in the growth season, the tips of branches and the uppermost smaller branches will have the lightest greenery, and this goes for deciduous as well as conifer trees.  But, that doesn't last long; eventually everything looks the same except that the tree has some kind of symmetry viewed in profile and from above.

Later, mid-summer and beyond, especially during the driest months, you'll see more yellow as older leaves die or succumb to a lack of moisture.  Where I live in the PNW, mid-June to early September can be absolutely brutal, no rain whatsoever.

So, you kinda hafta pick a time, a type of forest, and go with that if you'd like to nail it pretty closely.  The previous post about starting the lower and inner flocking with a darker colour and then getting progressively lighter as you go both outward on branches, near the tips, and higher where new growth also takes place, you would go with brighter greens.  Joe Fugate even dusts his trees with a spritz of yellow spray paint, a very light pass, to get that look.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Wednesday, June 23, 2021 6:15 PM

If you go look at some real trees in a forest, rather than individual ones, you'll not only see greens, but many other colours that you wouldn't expect...blues, purples, yellows and orange, and even some red.

I use at least two or three versions of green, and often dust the tops of trees with an application of fine yellow ground foam, to create a suggestion of sunlight on the treetops...

Wayne

 

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Posted by Doughless on Wednesday, June 23, 2021 6:45 PM

Very nice pictures Wayne.  Its always a treat to see your modeling.

Here in the Georgia Piedmont, its very woodsy.  Sunlight strikes the trees from various angles.  The sprinkling of lighter colors on the outside would help with that look.

You might think about geography too.  Also down here, two days of a good rain causes the jungle to liven up again and you can get new growth.  So some of the younger chutes can really happen mid summer or any time 8 months throughout the year. 

- Douglas

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Posted by kasskaboose on Wednesday, June 23, 2021 9:05 PM

You can't go wrong with the advice here about using variety of colors.  I too use different types of trees and heights for the VA portion of the Appalachian mountains.  Those are so pretty to look at; you can easily loose yourself at the majestic scenery.  

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Posted by hon30critter on Wednesday, June 23, 2021 9:25 PM

I agree with all of the comments above.

I would add that the colour of the trunk and big branches should also be taken into account. Most tree trunks are not brown. They are various shades of gray. Some lighter, most rather dark.

Dave

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Posted by NorthBrit on Thursday, June 24, 2021 4:46 AM

Just to add to the excellent replies already made.

 

Nature throws up many surprises.   Like the title of the song   '50 Shades of Green'  answers many a question.

 

 

Even a field can be overrun with wildflowers

 

Nature rules even if a railroad is there

 

 

David

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Posted by mobilman44 on Thursday, June 24, 2021 5:38 AM

Colors can vary so much - be it trees, rock formations, ground cover, water, concrete, and even the sky.  And in modeling, about the only guide I agree with is that nothing in nature is shiny.  

On my last two layouts, I used a variety of trees (from several mfg) with many shades of green and textures.  IMO, this worked out very well, and gave a good representation of the "real world".  

Mix them up, and I don't think you will be disappointed!

 

 

ENJOY  !

 

Mobilman44

 

Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central 

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Posted by mthobbies on Thursday, June 24, 2021 8:37 AM

Thanks! I appreciate everyone's comments, but I have to dissagree. From my observations, nature is not "random" as some have suggested.

When I look at a forrest canopy, especially if scaled for a model railroad, the hills are basically one color. Sure, up close in real life they may have different varriations, but when viewed from a distance (which is how it will appear on our model railroads) the trees are all the same color.

I think using too many different colors would distract from the scale of our forrests.

Notice how the trees themselves may be slightly different colors, but the hilside as a whole is basically one color. This is the kind of "scale color" I am trying to achieve.

 

Matt

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Posted by Doughless on Thursday, June 24, 2021 9:23 AM

mthobbies

Thanks! I appreciate everyone's comments, but I have to dissagree. From my observations, nature is not "random" as some have suggested.

When I look at a forrest canopy, especially if scaled for a model railroad, the hills are basically one color. Sure, up close in real life they may have different varriations, but when viewed from a distance (which is how it will appear on our model railroads) the trees are all the same color.

I think using too many different colors would distract from the scale of our forrests.

Notice how the trees themselves may be slightly different colors, but the hilside as a whole is basically one color. This is the kind of "scale color" I am trying to achieve.

 

Matt

 

Distance plays a part.  When the question was about modeling trees and using ground foam, several to many actual trees stuck together, perhaps we were thinking about more foreground scenery.  If you notice in your pic, that shrub up close is lighter than what's in the background and has those variations we were explaining.

If you're modeling more of a background where you would also need deeper benchwork, Dr. Wayne has used a technique using insulation I believe that gives that canopy look without the indivdual detail. (I think his last photo models the forest canopy in the background more than the actual "trees")

And with backdrops, forests usually mean lots of humidity, so the farther back you model the more haze (gray) is in between you and the forest and the less light there is. 

That's probably more applicable to painting backdrops than modeling trees with ground foam though.

- Douglas

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Posted by mthobbies on Thursday, June 24, 2021 9:43 AM

Doughless

   

If you notice in your pic, that shrub up close is lighter than what's in the background and has those variations we were explaining.

If you're modeling more of a background where you would also need deeper benchwork, Dr. Wayne has used a technique using insulation I believe that gives that canopy look without the indivdual detail. (I think his last photo models the forest canopy in the background more than the actual "trees")

And with backdrops, forests usually mean lots of humidity, so the farther back you model the more haze (gray) is in between you and the forest and the less light there is. 

That's probably more applicable to painting backdrops than modeling trees with ground foam though.

 

Hi Douglas. Yeah I'm modeling more of a forrest canopy, tree covered mountains. I thought about doing puffballs for my canopy, but I just don't think they're detailed enough for me. I'm definitely using Super Trees. It's only a 4x8 so I can use Super Trees exclusively without breaking the bank.

I plan on using lighter trees in the foreground, with darker and smaller trees towards the back.

 

Matt

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Posted by doctorwayne on Thursday, June 24, 2021 10:35 AM

mthobbies
Notice how the trees themselves may be slightly different colors, but the hilside as a whole is basically one color.

If that's what you're seeing, then it should be pretty simple to do. 

I see a wide range of colours, from the oranges and yellows in the foreground, and the vibrant green, then all sorts of greens, interspersed with black and some areas with a brownish tinge.  Beyond that, the blacks have change to blues then further away, to purples and mauves, and grey/blue  in the distance.

A painted backdrop might be useful combined with your super trees.

Wayne

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Posted by selector on Thursday, June 24, 2021 4:04 PM

mthobbies

Thanks! I appreciate everyone's comments, but I have to dissagree. From my observations, nature is not "random" as some have suggested.

When I look at a forrest canopy, especially if scaled for a model railroad, the hills are basically one color. Sure, up close in real life they may have different varriations, but when viewed from a distance (which is how it will appear on our model railroads) the trees are all the same color.

I think using too many different colors would distract from the scale of our forrests.

Notice how the trees themselves may be slightly different colors, but the hilside as a whole is basically one color. This is the kind of "scale color" I am trying to achieve.

 

Matt

 

Your photo would be great for distant hills as a photographic backdrop, hills about one mile away or more.  For those just past arm's length on your layout, we're talking 200 yard-plus.  This is what you'd see:

I agree that it takes a good deal of craft to pull off a puffball tree canopy, but it can be done.  You just need to do it a step at a time, jab in some bare 'snags' here and there as you see in a typical forest, and vary the size and flocking a bit.

A forest only looks isotropic and homogeneous at vast distances that can't be replicated on even the largest layouts.

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Posted by John-NYBW on Thursday, June 24, 2021 4:56 PM

From my observations, while tree shades do vary, the variances are subtle. In my early efforts at creating a forest canopy, I used a wide variety of light, medium, and dark greens and it produced what was to my eye, a very artificial look. Light greens are appropriate for spring but trees darken over the summer. Choose either light or dark green based on the time of year you are modeling. If you aren't modeling a specific time of the year, pick either light or dark and be consistent. 

Why do tree leaves turn darker in summer? - Discover Wildlife

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Posted by mthobbies on Friday, June 25, 2021 10:31 AM

John-NYBW

From my observations, while tree shades do vary, the variances are subtle. In my early efforts at creating a forest canopy, I used a wide variety of light, medium, and dark greens and it produced what was to my eye, a very artificial look. Light greens are appropriate for spring but trees darken over the summer. Choose either light or dark green based on the time of year you are modeling. If you aren't modeling a specific time of the year, pick either light or dark and be consistent. 

Why do tree leaves turn darker in summer? - Discover Wildlife

 

Yes I agree! This is exactly what I was thinking. Too much variety makes the hillside look forced, unrealistic, and out of scale.

In order to achieve a realistic scale model, forrest canopies should be more or less the same color. Oftentimes, monotone scenery is more believable than creative scenery because too many different colors and random textures can be distracting from the overall believability of the scene. You want to eliminate the possibility for viewers to think subconsiously, "Hmm, something's not quite right here" The brain is easily pricked by anomolies. So by sticking to a limited color palette, as John-NYBW stated, you eliminate the possibility of your scenery looking too imaginative. Instead you end up with a realistic and believable replication of the patterns seen in the real world holistically.

Just my opinion,

Matt

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Posted by John-NYBW on Saturday, June 26, 2021 11:06 AM

mthobbies

 

 
John-NYBW

From my observations, while tree shades do vary, the variances are subtle. In my early efforts at creating a forest canopy, I used a wide variety of light, medium, and dark greens and it produced what was to my eye, a very artificial look. Light greens are appropriate for spring but trees darken over the summer. Choose either light or dark green based on the time of year you are modeling. If you aren't modeling a specific time of the year, pick either light or dark and be consistent. 

Why do tree leaves turn darker in summer? - Discover Wildlife

 

 

 

Yes I agree! This is exactly what I was thinking. Too much variety makes the hillside look forced, unrealistic, and out of scale.

In order to achieve a realistic scale model, forrest canopies should be more or less the same color. Oftentimes, monotone scenery is more believable than creative scenery because too many different colors and random textures can be distracting from the overall believability of the scene. You want to eliminate the possibility for viewers to think subconsiously, "Hmm, something's not quite right here" The brain is easily pricked by anomolies. So by sticking to a limited color palette, as John-NYBW stated, you eliminate the possibility of your scenery looking too imaginative. Instead you end up with a realistic and believable replication of the patterns seen in the real world holistically.

Just my opinion,

Matt

 

Of course if someone doesn't want to stick to a monochrome look to their forest canopies, they always have the option of modeling autumn which allows a large color pallete without sacrificing realism. That wasn't an option for me because one of the towns on my branchline is a lakeside summer resort town which would see much less passenger and freight business in the fall. Besides all my backdrops have dark green foliage. 

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Saturday, June 26, 2021 1:17 PM

mthobbies
I'm curious, what color trees do you all use for Appalachian mountain scenery?

I can assure you, tree colour cannot be done incorrectly, as long as it is green.

Use the colours that look right to you.

I have been photographing nature and landscape for years. Trees, especially in Appalachia, come in all hues of green. The perceived colour will change with lighting conditions, atmospheric conditions, and time of day.

-Kevin

Living the dream.

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Posted by John-NYBW on Saturday, June 26, 2021 6:05 PM

Woodland Scenics and Scenic Express I believe offer the most choices in foliage color and their offerings vary far greater in hue than what we see in nature. I've found it is best to stick to two or at most three similar shades when creating a forest canopy. I think I read an article by Tony Koester a number of years ago in which he said he stuck to a single dark green shade for tree foliage because that's what he sees in nature, especially in distant hillsides. Individual foreground trees might see a little more variety, but using a lot of variance for a background forest canopy looks artificial to me, especially when modeling deciduous trees.  

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Posted by trainnut1250 on Sunday, June 27, 2021 10:58 AM

 

Matt,

In general, I would use several similar shades of green for your canopy. One shade will be too monochromatic. Definitely paint a backdrop to help convey a sense of depth and to fill in at the ground level so that the forest looks denser and more uniform.

I really like the Noch leaves on the super trees in the foreground. They come in a variety of shades and look great.

Have fun with the project,

Guy

 

see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Thursday, July 1, 2021 5:36 PM

trainnut1250
I really like the Noch leaves on the super trees in the foreground.

The Noch leaves do make a great looking tree for close-to-the-aisle scenery.

-Kevin

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Posted by John-NYBW on Saturday, July 3, 2021 5:23 PM

I can't find a convenient source for Noch products. My LHS stocks WS. Amazon offers a meager selection. The only listing for leaf material is Spring Green which is not the shade I want. On ebay, the selection is either for small packages of leaf material or ordering from overseas with ridiculously high shipping costs. Over $43 from Germany on top of a $9 price tag. I got no hits for Noch on the Walthers catalog. I've bought Noch scenery products at train shows but have yet to see their leaf material. Just where does one go to find the Nock leaf products. It would be nice to be able to see it before I buy it. 

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Saturday, July 3, 2021 5:35 PM

John,

I have always bought ALL the scenery material I can get at train shows. I have three 27 gallon totes full of scenery supplies.

Train shows are where I bought all my Noch leafy material.

I know that is not of much help.

Right now, the only option for most international shipping is Air Priority/Express service. Once the cargo ships and ports get unclogged, surface mail should become an option again, and shipping prices should go down.

-Kevin

Living the dream.

WPA
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Posted by WPA on Monday, July 5, 2021 8:00 PM

All I know is since returning to the hobby I have never paid so much attention to tree and canopy cover and patterns in the real world.  I started using the puff ball method laid out in the MRR Virginian series and reversed colors every now and then and filtered in some using Senic Express fine green. I mixed in some Super trees and some WS premade foliage on hill tops.  I was stressed at first about color then eased into it.  Just get started and it will work out. 
 9C4580CB-99A0-48CA-BBFA-8C20418A8577 

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Posted by trainnut1250 on Tuesday, July 6, 2021 2:23 PM

John-NYBW

I can't find a convenient source for Noch products. My LHS stocks WS. Amazon offers a meager selection. The only listing for leaf material is Spring Green which is not the shade I want. On ebay, the selection is either for small packages of leaf material or ordering from overseas with ridiculously high shipping costs. Over $43 from Germany on top of a $9 price tag. I got no hits for Noch on the Walthers catalog. I've bought Noch scenery products at train shows but have yet to see their leaf material. Just where does one go to find the Nock leaf products. It would be nice to be able to see it before I buy it. 

 

 

Scenic Express carries Noch leaves

 

Guy

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Posted by John-NYBW on Saturday, July 10, 2021 11:53 AM

WPA

All I know is since returning to the hobby I have never paid so much attention to tree and canopy cover and patterns in the real world.  I started using the puff ball method laid out in the MRR Virginian series and reversed colors every now and then and filtered in some using Senic Express fine green. I mixed in some Super trees and some WS premade foliage on hill tops.  I was stressed at first about color then eased into it.  Just get started and it will work out. 
 9C4580CB-99A0-48CA-BBFA-8C20418A8577 

 

I've found that using puffball trees for the background canopy fronted by either Super Trees or those made with WS armatures produces a very convincing effect. I recently tried the Pelle Soeberg method of gluing pieces of Super Trees to the WS armatures and then adding the foliage. It does produce outstanding trees but it is labor intensive. I found myself spending about a half hour per tree. I might reduce that if I did it more often but I can't see doing it on a large scale. It is worth the effort for foreground trees. 

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Posted by Track fiddler on Monday, July 12, 2021 10:53 AM

Does tree color (colour) (couleur) matter?

Of course it does!  But not really.  It depends on which tree you're talking about.

I have seen hot pink, fuchsia ones and even white trees when the apple blossoms are blooming in the spring,  Beautiful!

It depends on what you're doing or trying to achieve but a tree can be any color from orange to gold or peach and bright red in the fall.  I've even seen purple ones but I just don't remember where? LaughWhistling

I suppose when you're talking a coniferous tree such as Appalachian Pines, they can only be so many colors.

 

The Black Hills in South Dakota when the sun is on the other side of the hill shadowing the trees,  the trees look black.  I have seen this first hand only about a month ago and only then I realized why they are called the Black Hills.  Outside of the National Park they have already cut down the trees at an alarming rate so don't think of for a minute that these trees don't matter because they do! 

I don't understand for a moment why they keep mowing them down like they're doing to the rainforest when these trees give us all the oxygen we need???

Dr. Seuss tried to help us all so many years ago with The Lorax book.

 

A while back I did take the liberty to try the creation of an Appalachian Pine tree experiment.  The first experiment was a failure but I plan to resume the experiment and still work on the area where the experiment went wrong.  I'm not one to give up easily.

I'll go look for pictures of the failure and post it.  When I resume the project I'll post the updates.

 

Thanks Matt!  I love tree threads!

 

 

 

TF

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Posted by Track fiddler on Monday, July 12, 2021 1:01 PM

Post Hog!

I'm still looking for pictures of my feeble attempt of an Appalachian Pine experiment but here's some information and what I believe you're talking about with the Appalachian Pine being called a Table Pine, at least in this article.

https://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/misc/ag_654/volume_1/pinus/pungens.htm#:~:text=Table%20Mountain%20pine%2C%20an%20Appalachian,17%2C29%2C31).

A bit disappointed that big long article did not mention anything about the color of the tree with exception of its cones are purple but I'm still lookingIndifferent

 

 

 

TF

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