Need Advice-Yard Layout

[DigitalGriffin]

I saw recently that someone asked to be advised on their yard layout. So I hope you don't mind if I ask you guys to do it again for mine. Please feel free to be critical. I want to do it the right way, and I don't offend easily. If you have examples of better layouts, please let me know.

The overall layout is 40" x 144" (3 1/2'x12' ft) The main lines and A/D track use R22 curves & #6 Turnouts. (I have a 2-10-4 on the way) All the yard curves (except A/D track) are #4 Turnouts and R18. Below the coal house is a water tower. The full size image is in the weblink.

Thanks as always for your great advise.

~Don

http://home.comcast.net/~donald71/layout.gif

[ericboone]

You describe your layout as a "yard layout". You may want to have some form of staging to bring trains into and out of your yard. Do you have room for temporary staging in your room?
Have you considered making the layout modular. Then you could make your yard part of a large modular layout if you wanted to.

[ericboone]

By looking at your layout, I assume you are trying to represent a small shortline yard.
I would have to say the layout of the yard is a little odd and the yard tracks seem very short.

First, I would do what I can to avoid the switchback into the yard. Unless very cramped for space, a real railroad would never do this. Second, I would try to orient the yard tracks to take avantage of the long direction of your layout. 3 longer parallel yard tracks will offer more capacity than the five shorter tracks you have now.

Maybe you could have a small three track yard with the yard tracks parallel to the mainline and a few industries behind the yard. Maybe this represents a small industrial switching railroad or switching district and the mainline is your favorite class one that occasionally stops by to interchange cars at your small yard.

Just my [2c]

[ericboone]

I sketched up a concept for you. All switches are number 6.
http://www.peremarquette.net/images/Layout_Sketch.pdf

This layout has three long yard tracks and a two track mainline compatible with modular standards. Beyond that, I've drawn in a water tower, sanding facilities, an enginehouse, and a station. There is still a large area left for industries or a city scene behind the yard. Of course, you could have the yard tracks gradually curve away from the main line and put some industry, engine facility, or city scene between the yard tracks and main line. What you build is entirely up to you. The important thing is that you are happy.

[dehusman]

I would suggest you try and reconfigure things, its pretty jumbled.

The AD track is intended to be an arrival-departure track. That is a track that an inbound train comes to before it is switched or an outbound train is built in before it departs. On your plan, if you build an outbound train in the AD track, how will you get an engine on it? By putting the train in the AD track, you block the engine house.
Also how will you get a cut of cars back on the lead to switch them? The only way to switch cars (or bring cars back out of the yard for that matter) is to put an engine on "bottom" of the cut shove the cut out the top end of the AD track onto the main and then pull it all back onto the tail track to switch.
The runaround on the switch lead can't really be used because you have no room past it for anything to run around. You need at least one engine length of room past the switch to make it work. You would be better off moving the runaround someplace else.
Try to lengthen the tracks you switch into (classification or class tracks). You have three switches to create tracks that only hold 6 cars between all of them.
I am not a big fan of #4 switches, but you may need to use them or that's what you might have. #6 switches are a better choice in many cases since longer equipment operates better through them.
I am assuming you are in HO , you didn't say, but the diagram looks like it was drawn for HO. As ericboone mentioned some "staging" would be helpful. If can be a 1x4 with a single track on it ( or a 1x6 with a double main) that hinges to the layout edge and has dropdown or removable leg.
I would suggest starting out simpler and go from there.

Dave H.

[ericboone]

If you wanted, you could make a loop of track on your layout. However, the radius would have to be 18 inches and your 2-10-4 may have problems with this or at the very least look akward. Would it be possible to make your layout 48 inches wide so you could get a 22 inch radius turn?
Do you have access to your layout from multiple sides or is it against two or three walls?
I have a track plan book called "The Best of Model Railroading Magazine's Track Plans" edited by Robert Schleicher. There is a track plan that would be just about perfect for your space if you have 48 inches of width. It contains a loop of track with staging and the modular layout mainline can be used as a small yard for home operation. The layout could be added to a modular club layout if you wanted to. It is on page 74 and the article is reprinted from volume 11, issue number 4 of Model Railroading magazine. I wish I could post it here, but that would violate copyright laws.

[tstage]

Don,

I'm still working on the yard but here's a modification that might work better for your transition from the outside to the inside mainline:

http://www.railimages.com/gallery/tomstage/aau?full=1



(Sorry, it's not exactly the same as your drawing but it's a close approximation.)

Anyway, whenever you use two curves together that come from opposite directions, there should be a "transitional" or straight section between them. (This is usually the length of your longest car or locomotive.) Otherwise, you run the good chance of derailing in that spot. (See example "Avoid 'S' curves" in middle of layout.)

This is true on turnouts, as well. You have (2) #6's moving you from the outside mainline to the inside mainline. (Not a problem.) The sticky area is going from those turnouts IMMEDIATELY into the #6 turnout leading to the wye (or "Y") of your yard. This makes for a lot of direction change with not much transition in between. Even at slow speeds, your longer cars will scissor through your curves a most likely derail.

You also have a number of sharp curves off your turnouts. You'll need to smooth or lengthen out those curves and make them more gradual. If you want the option of moving into your yard AFTER your transition from the outside mainline to the inside mainline, I would suggest moving the set of #6 turnouts further back to accompli***his. (See "*Alternative Solution" at bottom of layout.) Prototypical railroads would probably make smoother transtions like these.

Don, it's also a good idea to give yourself at least a minimum 2-1/2" track center on your curves. I included that on the modification, as well as labeling some of the track pieces so you know which ones I used.

There's a brand new book that was just put out recently by Kalmbach Publishers (http://shop.store.yahoo.com/kalmbachcatalog/12248.html) that deals specifically with yards and how they function. I believe it's called The Modeler Railroader's Guide to Freight Yards by Andy Sperandeo. Your local hobby store should probably have it in stock.

Don, I probably gave you more than you really wanted. Hope it's been helpful in some way, shape, or form...

Tom

[DigitalGriffin]

Thanks for the replies guys. I have been looking over your responses and redesigning my yard for the past two days. But I have a question about operations.

Let's say I have a yard, with a single drill track and single ladder on the left side. Now let's say I have an engine coming in from the right side that moves into the A/D track.

If I leave the engine on the AD track, then when I pull the car stock with my switcher from the classification yard, to the drill track, and push it forward, it will be facing the front of the engine. [moving stock] [<Front of engine]

If I move the engine on the drill track, then my switcher will have to pull all the way out to the main to unload the moving stock from the classification track. I read several times that's something you want to avoid. Is this behavior considered acceptable in this kind of layout?

I bought the Kalmbach book on model rail yards, but they failed to explain this adequately.

Anyone?

Again, thank you all for your advice. It's not falling on deaf ears.

~Don

[dehusman]

I don't understand your question.

Here is a diagram of a basic yard, try asking your question using this yard diagram.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dehusman/detail?.dir=/ee1d&.dnm=33cd.jpg&.src=ph

(I tried imbedding an image but it didn't work so here's a link instead)

Dave H.

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

I don't understand your question.

Here is a diagram of a basic yard, try asking your question using this yard diagram.



Dave H.

Dave,

Your pic isn't visible...

Tom

[tstage]

Don,

I've been playing with an idea for your layout at home. (Probably overkill but you can modify as needed) I'll try and post that for you later tonight.

Tom

[DigitalGriffin]

dehusman,

Your link looks like it's broken, so I included an image on a basic yard layout to explain what I'm talking about.

If a train is coming off the main from the RIGHT side, and stays at Point B, then when the switcher pushes the stock onto the A/D track from the drill track, the engine will be facing the wrong way.

If I move the engine to Point A (Drill track), then the switcher can no longer use the drill track to unload the cars from classification track. It has to move down to the main, then pu***hem back onto the A/D track. The engine can then back into the cars once the switcher detaches and moves out of the way.

http://home.comcast.net/~donald71/YardTrack.GIF


EDIT UPDATE: Okay I just realized how short sited I am. If I make the drill track long enough for the train, switcher, and stock all at once then I shouldn't have a problem. The train would just need to go further down the drill track right?

Tstage and Eric,

Thanks for the tips and diagrams. They have helped out considerably.

Thanks,
Don

[tstage]

Don,

On your original post, you have a single track for your engine house. Will that be housing your switcher? Will you be "storing" or want to store any other locomotives in your yard? How much rolling stock (cars) will you have? What will your longest car length be? How long will your entire train (i.e locomotive + rolling stock+caboose) be?

This will help me with modifying my idea.

Tom

[dehusman]

I still don't understand what you are asking, but here's how an arriving train might work.

A train pulls into the arrival tratrack through point A and the engine stops at Point B. It uncouples from the train and goes up the ladder to the switchback area at the top (which I am assuming is the engine terminal.) The switcher has been on the drill track, comes out couples into the train, pulls it onto the drill track and switches the train into the class tracks. The switcher then couples the switched cars and builds an outbound train, putting the caboose on the appropriate end of the train and putting it in the departure track. The switcher goes onto the drill. The road engine comes out of the engine house, down the ladder and backs on the train if its going left, through the crossover at B, down the main and back on to the train at A if its going right.

Dave H.

[DigitalGriffin]

>Will that be housing your switcher?
YesI will house the switcher, and possibly another engine, or moving stock. I thought about having a RIP track as well on the same line. (Or is that too much?)

>What will the longest length be?
I will be having one coal drag engine (2-10-4), running about 6-12 cars (2 Bay C&O hoppers)

I will also have one freight engine (2-8-8-2).

The last train will be 4-8-2 Heavy for passenger service. This sits on the 2nd main, and will be serviced by a station later down the line.

~Thanks,
Don

[SpaceMouse]

Hi,

I am the original yahoo you were talking about when you opened this dialog. This site was very helpful to me.

http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html

[tstage]

Don ,

Okay. The one question that didn't get answered was how long is your longest piece of rolling stock or passenger car? Also, If you are going to house more than one locomotive, have you thought about using a turntable of some kind to maximize your storage capacity? (Not necessary but worth considering.) I don't have the need or room on mine at present.

Tom

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Hi,

I am the original yahoo you were talking about when you opened this dialog. This site was very helpful to me.

http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html

Hey, Chip!

Did you happen to run across this in the link that you just posted?

http://www.housatonicrr.com/RogersKitbash.htm

I clicked on the link, clicked on "Links Page", then scrolled down to "Transforming a 1900 Baldwin Ten-wheeler into an 1880's Rogers". That looks right up your alley. Maybe something for you down the road...

Tom

[DigitalGriffin]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Don ,

Okay. The one question that didn't get answered was how long is your longest piece of rolling stock or passenger car? Also, If you are going to house more than one locomotive, have you thought about using a turntable of some kind to maximize your storage capacity? (Not necessary but worth considering.) I don't have the need or room on mine at present.

Tom

[tstage]

Don,

Here's the promised yard idea:

http://www.railimages.com/gallery/tomstage/aav?full=1

I'm sure that those who are far more knowledgable on the topic than I am will probably be able to shoot my drawing full of alll sorts of holes and/or give you much better ideas for a working yard.

Don, if you wanted to, you could probably move the diesel fueling platform closer to the Coaing Tower. Or, eliminate it altogether - if you are only going to model steam. The turntable will allow your locomotives the luxury of being able to turn around. However, that one secton of track, between the yard and the turntable, will create a reversing loop.

Anyhow, for what it's worth (...and it's probably not much)

Tom

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Don,

Here's the promised yard idea:

http://www.railimages.com/gallery/tomstage/aav?full=1

I'm sure that those who are far more knowledgable on the topic than I am will probably be able to shoot my drawing full of alll sorts of holes and/or give you much better ideas for a working yard.

Don, if you wanted to, you could probably move the diesel fueling platform closer to the Coaing Tower. Or, eliminate it altogether - if you are only going to model steam. The turntable will allow your locomotives the luxury of being able to turn around. However, that one secton of track, between the yard and the turntable, will create a reversing loop.

Anyhow, for what it's worth (...and it's probably not much)

Tom

Tom,

In my best Crocodile Dundee voice, "No ats a yard, mate."

I downloaded it for further study.

Chip

[DigitalGriffin]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

In my best Crocodile Dundee voice, "No ats a yard, mate."

You aren't joking. It's a thing of beauty.

Too bad I can't use it as I only have 40 inches max to spare. (Unless I eliminate my 3rd section of my layout.) But there are some useful ideas in here. Thanks Tom.

[tstage]

Don,

To make the half circle just before the yard, I used (2) pieces of R22" then (3) R18" then (2) 22". You might be able to decrease the width to fit into your 40" wide window some if you decrease the radii circle to all 18's", or combinations of 18" and 15". The one downside to that is that it will reduce the size (individual length) of the cars you'd be able to run.

Don, can "part" or a small portion of your layout be wider than 40", even if the whole thing isn't? In other words, could your layout be >40" just at the half circel and <40" everywhere else?

Tom