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tortise switch machines

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tortise switch machines
Posted by crisco1 on Tuesday, February 5, 2019 8:00 PM

Hi,

   Is there anybody that could give me suggestions on how to install

a tortise switch machine sideways.  The tortise switch machine won't fit the

conventional way due to L grider.  I can't move the switch due to the track

being inline with the L grider.

                                                                                 Thanks,

                                                                                  Chris 

 

 

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Posted by gmpullman on Wednesday, February 6, 2019 1:42 AM

Hi,

I have two-such similar situations on my layout. I made up a brass tube with a stiff music wire extention to pass through and I mounted the Tortoise as usual (rather than horizontal) just a few inches farther from the throw bar of the turnout:

 Tortoise_link2 by Edmund, on Flickr

I have a small cast urethane shed that covers the rod and hides it:

 Tortoise_link4 by Edmund, on Flickr

Here's the other place where I had to offset the Tortoise a little:

 IMG_0228 by Edmund, on Flickr

In the example above, I passed the wire through a length of heat-shrink tubing so it wouldn't possibly short where it passes under the adjoining rails.

 

There is also a "RemoteTortoise" mount available from Circuitron that may be of help to you.

 

https://www.dccspecialties.com/products/tortoise/remote-tortoise-mount.htm

http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/ins/800-6100ins.pdf

 

The Circuitron site was last updated in 2014!

Good Luck, Ed

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Posted by Onewolf on Wednesday, February 6, 2019 6:56 AM

I also had to offset mount several Tortoises because of benchwork obstructions underneath. I used the same method as Ed where I used a stiff wire inside a brass tube to throw the points. In my case all the obstructed turnouts/tortii were in hidden track locations so they are not as visually 'nice'.

 

Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.

- Photo album of layout construction -

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Posted by RR_Mel on Wednesday, February 6, 2019 9:08 AM

I like both of the above methods!  I also had a turnout in a position where I had to improvise the switch machine operation.  I used a bellcrank under the layout with a pushrod to move the points.  I didn’t take any pictures so the drawing below shows how it works.
 
 
I used Amazing Goop to fasten the bronze rod to the bellcrank for strength.  The bellcrank is nylon and that is the only adhesive I could find to anchor the bronze rod to the nylon.
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by kasskaboose on Wednesday, February 6, 2019 11:14 AM

Helpful suggestions everyone!

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Posted by RR_Mel on Wednesday, February 6, 2019 2:38 PM

I used nylon bellcranks for my under layout double crossover with a single Tortoise to drive all four sets of points.  I used some Plexiglas as a ridged support for the bellcranks.
 
I tapped the holes in the bellcranks with a 4-40 tap for added support to the turnout throw arms.  I used 4-40 nylon screws in the bellcranks.  I drilled a .019 lengthwise and inserted .02” piano wire as throw arms.  That worked out nicely.
 
 
 
The weirdo mechanism hasn’t given me any problems since it was installed in 2012.
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, February 6, 2019 9:46 PM

 

Check out how the tortoise is mounted in this video:

https://www.facebook.com/2276617392355483/posts/2575253779158508?sfns=nwmo

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Posted by railandsail on Wednesday, February 6, 2019 11:28 PM

WOW Mel, I may have to come back to you for a few more details of the turnout control. I have a particular spot that I need to control 4 turnouts at a time.

 

I was having some concerns about those 2 tracks at the upper deck level,...because I wanted to locate a modified double-cross over arrangement there.

 

So I did a little mock up using 3 med radius Pecos and 1 dbl-curve Peco. Since I had not yet sliced the 3” box beams in half, I used some other slightly wider width alum channels I had for this image. But the basic idea is there.

The 2 box beams are on the left, ...and when cut down will provide 2 channels like those shown on the right. The upright 'web' between the two channels will be shaved down where needed for the 'crossover track piece'.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/274155.aspx

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Posted by gregc on Friday, February 8, 2019 4:45 AM

you can use a linkage that rotates and mount the tortoise some dsitance from a pivot on the bottom of the linkage.   The linkage can attach to the the throwbar either between or outside the rails.  the bottom of the linkage is attached directly to the tortise

 

  

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Friday, February 8, 2019 5:05 AM

    

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Posted by RR_Mel on Friday, February 8, 2019 6:21 AM

railandsail

WOW Mel, I may have to come back to you for a few more details of the turnout control. I have a particular spot that I need to control 4 turnouts at a time.

 

 

 

Brian
 
I have a post on my blog about the construction of my double crossover and my venture with the single Tortoise controller.
 
 
The setup works very good and it’s never given my any problems since I installed it back in 2012.  But if I was going to do a second one today I think I would go with four mini servos controlled with a Arduino UNO.  Four SG90 servos and the UNO are cheaper than a Tortoise and no linkage.
 
  
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by railandsail on Friday, February 8, 2019 10:24 AM

Mel, are you speaking about an electronic board like one of these?

https://www.ebay.com/i/192353740672?chn=ps

I'm a real idiot when it comes to these electronics.

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Posted by RR_Mel on Friday, February 8, 2019 10:47 AM

railandsail

Mel, are you speaking about an electronic board like one of these?

https://www.ebay.com/i/192353740672?chn=ps

I'm a real idiot when it comes to these electronics.

 

 

Yes. 
 
The Arduino programming isn’t the easiest thing I’ve attempted but I am slowly getting better at it, I’m far from being a programmer.  There are several Arduino gurus on the Forum that are using the Arduino micro controllers for operating turnout servos.  I have an experimental turnout working using a Tower SG90 servo done up like my drawing above but it still needs some work. 
 
Working with Arduinos isn’t something I stick with for long periods, too frustration for me.  I need to come up with a fix for the servo idle current to protect the servo motor.  When a servo reaches stall the motor continues to draw excessive current.


 

 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
 
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Posted by rrinker on Friday, February 8, 2019 5:21 PM

 Mel, you're just trying to drive them too far. If you're using the Servo library, instead of going all the way to 0, go no lower than 10, and don't go all the way to 180, try 170 as a max. Not all servos can actually turn a full 180 degrees. ANd if your linkage allows even lesser travel, you have to further restrict the range passed to the Servo library.

                                          --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by RR_Mel on Friday, February 8, 2019 6:13 PM

Randy
 
I’m working with a 90° servo swing.  I’m not warm and fuzzy unless the point rails are firmly against the outside rails.  To put even a slight pressure against the rail it raises the motor current between 10 to 12ma and I can feel the heat from the motor.
 
As for servo swing the 10 Tower SG90 servos I bought only two word go a bit past 160° the rest averaged 120°, very disappointing.  I guess for a buck and a half that isn’t to bad.
 
The SG90 idles no load at 14ma so with the rails touching the current is constant from 24 to 26ma at 5 volts.
 
I dropped the drive rod size to .02” from .03” and that dropped the current several ma.  Now I can put a slight bend in the rod with less current keeping pressure against the outside rails.  It was over 30ma with the .03” rod.
 
I haven’t worked on it for a couple of months, been playing around with my flashers.
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by rrinker on Friday, February 8, 2019 6:57 PM

 You need an over-center type of mechanism. If you look at the mounts that Tam valley sells - notice the have a little hole in them where it mounts to the layout, that reverse the direction of the swing - so servo to the right puts the points to the left. Don;t use overly stiff wire, there's no need (and I never found a need to use anything more than .032 even going through TWO layers of 2" foam, plus cork roadbed. Plenty of spring tension holding the points over, without the servos humming away. Plus if you go over center - in my controller, it actually disconnects the servo once end of travel is reached. With the link wire being over center, it takes a lot of force to make it turn the servo if trying to push it from the turnout side of things, so I have no fear that the points will drift away from the stock rail.

                                          --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by RR_Mel on Friday, February 8, 2019 7:45 PM

Randy
 
About the only difference between my mount and the Tam Valley mount is the position of the servo, same basic type of mount with what looks like the same amount of servo swing. 
 
I chose to mount mine with a pendulum type swing.  I can tweak mine to where the servo idle current draw is almost 0 but then I loose the warm and fuzzy feeling.
 
About the only way I can shake that is to put it in service and see how it works.  The .02” rod will give a bit, maybe enough to get me over the hump.
 
As far as it working it’s much better than any model railroad switch machine and I can control the speed of the points.  I’m just worried about excessive current.  The SG90 specs sheets aren’t worth much.  If I hold the rail points the servo draws over 130ma with the .03” rod, that drops to 80ma using the smaller rod.
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by rrinker on Friday, February 8, 2019 8:18 PM

 If there is even any bend to the wire, it should hold just fine. Before I cut the excess wire off mine on my last layout, I had maybe 4-6 inches of extra wire sticking up out of the throwbar. I could pull on the far end enough to move the points the oposite way they were set, with the servo controllers actually powered off, and it wouldn't make the servo move back from where it was holding, and if I let go the points would snap back with quite a click. With a thinner roadbed, such as my next layout which will go back to more traditional methods like 3/4: ply and Cascade's milled homasote roadbed, since the length of the wire will be that much shorter, I will be using thinner stuff. i think the .032 will be too stiff in that short a length. Though I do have one where I stuck the servo to the bottom of a Peco turnout (spring still in) with double sides tape, about where the peco motors would clip on. I forget what size wire it has, but I think it's one I took off the old layout before I scrapped it, which makes it .032, and it goes the full range I have set in my code, something more than 90 degrees but less than 180, and doesn;t jam up, it makes it to the commanded point and doesn;t keep buzzing - and then I cut the signal on top of that. But it's in one of the mounts with a small fulcrim hole, mine are the older ones that Motrak used to make for Tam Valley. Current draw of my whole circuit witht he servos not moving, but with one or two relays pulled in, plus the LEDs, is pretty low. However, if I physcally try to restrain one of the servos I can get my power supply to indicate over 1 amp. My first test I think I set it to 30ma, and even with the servos doing no actual work, it would go to current limiting, so I cranked it up to 100ma, and it worked but if I rapidly hit the buttons and made the servo keep changing directions while in motion, it would spike into current limiting stiull. 500ma and it never limited - until I tries to restrain one of the servos.  Those SG90 servos cna take quite a beating. Leaving them stalled and buzzing though, will be bad. Stable state of the circuit with everything settled is under 50ma, and the servos aren;t drawing much, with the drive signal actually disconnected (with the detatch() command from the library). I'll have to get some pictures of what I have on my bench. The real thing should actually draw slightly less - the breadboard version is using a Nano, so there are regulators and USB chips being powered and drawing power that won;t be in the real version with just the Atmega 328 chip.

                        --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by RR_Mel on Friday, February 8, 2019 9:12 PM

railandsail

Mel, are you speaking about an electronic board like one of these?

https://www.ebay.com/i/192353740672?chn=ps

I'm a real idiot when it comes to these electronics.

 

 

OK Brian, all I have to do is tweak the stops in the program and the setup in my drawing will work OK so my drawing is accurate.  I’m going to tweak the stall current to 5ma, that won’t hurt the servo motor and still keep the point rails against the outside rails.
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by railandsail on Saturday, February 9, 2019 5:42 AM

I just never did like the basic idea of these 'stall motors' always being on.

I like the good old Peco spring affair. So I may look around for a bell-crank system I can power 4 Pecos with on CD unit.

I did this once a number of years ago on a double crossover (not Peco) with a single solenoid type, but I'm not sure if I remember exactly how I did it.

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Posted by railandsail on Saturday, February 9, 2019 5:57 AM

RR_Mel

I used nylon bellcranks for my under layout double crossover with a single Tortoise to drive all four sets of points.  I used some Plexiglas as a ridged support for the bellcranks.
 
I tapped the holes in the bellcranks with a 4-40 tap for added support to the turnout throw arms.  I used 4-40 nylon screws in the bellcranks.  I drilled a .019 lengthwise and inserted .02” piano wire as throw arms.  That worked out nicely.
 
 
 
The weirdo mechanism hasn’t given me any problems since it was installed in 2012.
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
 

 

I rather liked this idea Mel

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Posted by RR_Mel on Saturday, February 9, 2019 8:44 AM

Actually that Tortoise linkage didn’t work.  I hadn’t noticed I posted the wrong picture, this it the linkage that worked.
 
 
The two hairpin bends are needed to equalize all four bellcranks moving the points in both positions.
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by RR_Mel on Saturday, February 9, 2019 9:04 AM

Sorry for goobering up you’re post Chris!  Lots of good ideas above, the only limit to getting you’re Tortoise to work is you’re imagination.
 
My Dad always said “if there’s a will there is a way”.
 
I spent several days coming up with a way for one Tortoise to drive all four turnouts in my double crossover and it has worked flawlessly for seven years.
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by hardcoalcase on Sunday, February 10, 2019 11:35 AM

I've done side mount conversions on two Torties based on an article in the June '17 MR, page 56.  Basically it involves glueing 4 (.060") styrene mounting tabs (each drilled for a screw hole) on the side opposite the throw arm side - this becomes the "new top".  Then adding a second styrene fulcrum on the original top of the Tortoise with a 1/16" hole in line with the seam.  The music wire (.032") goes from the throw arm (drilled with a no. 66 bit to accommodate the thicker wire), through the original green fulcrum, does a 90 degree bend to go through the second fulcrum, and up through the subroadbed to the turnout throwbar.

(Does the adage "One picture is worth a thousand words" come to mind?)  Bang Head

I've also mounted Torties remotely using plastic RC aircraft style control line.  This method delivers more torque than the side mount, so its preferable if the subject turnout is a bit stiff.

Jim

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, February 10, 2019 11:47 AM

And, as I posted above, Circuitron makes a side mount with a cable drive for the Tortoise. And they sell the cable drive/link separate so that two turnouts can be driven off the same machine.

Even with a double crossover, I prefer to only drive them in pairs since my signal and CTC logic is linked to each clear "route".

https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/search?search_query_adv=tortise+remote+mount#/q:tortoise$2520remote$2520mount

http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/ins/800-6100ins.pdf

Sheldon

    

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Posted by gregc on Sunday, February 10, 2019 2:00 PM

The Pacific Southern RR club uses a single Tortise to control pairs of turnouts in yards using the linkage i described above.   In these cases, there is an intermediate turnout that routes to only one of the turnouts controlled by the one tortise  (saves $$)

The throwbar linkage allows the tortise to be distance from the turnout and at any angle.  The throwbar linkage can be some distance from the turnout as well.

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by AussieHO on Tuesday, February 12, 2019 5:49 PM
This is brilliant. I have often pondered how to change the direction easily. I found there are tons of Bell Cranks on the internet. This will solve adding a Tortoise to one of my switch points. Thanks

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