new to layout building

[rs2mike]

Ok I have been on this forum for a long time 8 years I think. I know not as long as some of you guys but a while none the less.

So here is my dilema.  My father in law added onto his house last year and it is finally getting finished now.  And of course he wants a layout in the new space in the basement.  He wants to build it and for me to help( He has seen some of my dioramas and thinks I can build his layout).  I of course said I would help out.  One becauses it is a challange of something new and 2 It is practice for when I finally get around to building a layout and not dioramas. 

So as far as framing goes what should I be using?  I was thinking of ripping down 3/4 ply and building the modules from that, but I have also seen use of 1x4 to build the framing.  Which would be more stable.  I mean when I go to lowes or home depot the 1x4 are terrible and crooked, so that what lead me to the making of my own with the ply. 

2)I was thinking he would go a single deck in his space which would be ok with me to build but now wants a double deck layout of a logging flavour.  His space is not big by any means and a helix I said would eat up a lot of real estate and so I suggested a switchback to get to said second deck.  I should have kept my mouth shut and said it was not so but he was set on a second deck even if it was a completely seperated layout from the other one.  To me kinda a waste, but whatever.

3. Now I am stuck on planning the thing and was wondering if anyone has any recommendations on someone who could plan the thing with a bill of materials in such a sway we won't have to sell the classic firebird to fund the planning phase. 

 

Any help is much appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Mike

[Lone Wolf and Santa Fe]

You have to hand pick every piece of lumber if you are only buying a few. If you are building a large layout you have to assume some pieces are going to be waste or cut into smaller pieces. There sometimes are different grades of lumber and some are straighter than others.

As far as double decker layout, If you keep the shelves narrow you can have the decks closer together. If they are close enough a long track across the back of the layout might be enough climb to get to the upper level. I have seen layouts like that.

 

[NVSRR]

I go with the 2x4 and 3/4 inch ply.  That way I can lean.on.it  and and move it.  Plus so much.lumber hits the stores green that there is no way to be sure the straight stuff you.bought.will be straight when you use it.    I avoid the foam too.  To much warpping  with that too.   I use easy Matt for the road bed.  

[davidmurray]

I bought lumber at local lumberyard before we were blessed by the arrival of the big boxes. 

If you do not have a good table saw and a good helper, getting 3/4 ply ripped down to lumber size can be hard, or expensive.  We have Lowes, HD, Rona, and at least one local lumber yard left here in a city of 150,000.  Check your yellow pages for local places.

Dave

 

[DigitalGriffin]

Technically speaking plywood is more dimensionally stable than wood.

That said, either will work.  My personal preference is 1x4 #2 for framing (16" on center standard spacing) and 1/2" ply for the top.  

If you do cookie cutter benchwork anything thicker than 1/2" is hard to work with.  Anything over 1/2" it will be heavier and more expensive.  Considering most home sub flooring isn't over 5/8" you're set with 1/2"  (B-C siding grade will work just fine, but also C-D if you don't mind covering up blemishes, sanding or rough spots)

[Lone Wolf and Santa Fe]

Another thought on the design: The bottom deck could be a mainline railroad while the upper deck is a logging railroad only accessible via some switchbacks. Once up to the top level the whole thing is logging industry only. The log train brings logs down the mountain to the connection with the other railroad at the bottom of the switch backs perhaps at a mill where the logs at cut into lumber and loaded onto boxcars, etc. 

[UNCLEBUTCH]

NVSRR

I go with the 2x4 and 3/4 inch ply. That way I can lean.on.it and and move it. Plus so much.lumber hits the stores green that there is no way to be sure the straight stuff you.bought.will be straight when you use it. I avoid the foam too. To much warpping with that too. I use easy Matt for the road bed.

2x4 plus 3/4 ply is over kill,your supporting a couple pouds of plastic, not engine blocks. I have never sean or heard of foam warping, I don't think its even possible.

If you want to rip plywood,you'll need stright cuts,table saw,good fence, and extra hands.

1x4s is my choice,be picky when you buy,if you can get by with 8ft and shorter, there is less chance of cupping and twisting. With today's lumber, you will still need some luck.I prefer foam ; way easyer to create land forms,others like ply.

My tables are built from recycled lumber and foam,I can and haved stood on them plenty strong enuff

[BigDaddy]

UNCLEBUTCH

If you want to rip plywood,you'll need stright cuts,table saw,good fence, and extra hands.

Based on this article http://mrr.trains.com/how-to/get-started/2011/11/benchwork-for-your-model-railroad I mis-remebered 3" and went to Home Depot and got them to rip a sheet of 1/2 or maybe it was 5/8" birch to 4" strips.  Birch is the good stuff, not the stuff you run your hand over and get a dozen splinters.  If I had to do it over again, 3 1/2 would be more efficient use of the wood.  They charge after the first or second cut, but they have the equipment and I don't,

It was cheaper than 1x4's of good quality.

I used 1/8" ply for a top on which I put 2" foam.  People tell me that ply was unnecessary.  I used it because it was cheap and or free and it provides a place to screw in switch machine or terminal blocks.

[UNCLEBUTCH]

BigDaddy

I used 1/8" ply for a top on which I put 2" foam. People tell me that ply was unnecessary. I used it because it was cheap and or free and it provides a place to screw in switch machine or terminal blocks.

I have one section that idid that,my first one. I curse every time I wanted to drop a wire,and couldn't just push my pointy thing thru, had to go find the drill.

The rest of the tables do not have the 1/8 ply, without any issues.So I belong the camp that says its not needed

Was it still cheaper even with the extra cost of ripping?

My lumber was all free, so I have nothing to compare it to

[BigDaddy]

UNCLEBUTCH

Was it still cheaper even with the extra cost of ripping?

I think so, the extra cuts were $1.  According to the website a 1/2 x 4 x 8 is $32 http://www.homedepot.com/p/Sande-Plywood-Common-1-2-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Actual-0-472-in-x-48-in-x-96-in-454532/100017950

That gives 11 + 1 narrower 4" boards, say $13 dollars for 13 extra cuts totals $45.  A "premium" 1x4x8 is $6.13   http://www.homedepot.com/p/1-in-x-4-in-x-8-ft-Premium-Kiln-Dried-Square-Edge-Whitewood-Common-Board-914681/100023465?MERCH=REC-_-NavPLPHorizontal1_rr-_-NA-_-100023465-_-N   11 of those are $67

edit O e day I would like to type in English without 5 revisions

Those are my best guess based on what I see on the website.  It also assumes the premium 1x4's are straight.

[rs2mike]

Lone Wolf and Santa Fe

Another thought on the design: The bottom deck could be a mainline railroad while the upper deck is a logging railroad only accessible via some switchbacks. Once up to the top level the whole thing is logging industry only. The log train brings logs down the mountain to the connection with the other railroad at the bottom of the switch backs perhaps at a mill where the logs at cut into lumber and loaded onto boxcars, etc. 

 

I think that was what he was headed for in ideas just not conveyed well I guess for me to get it.  That sounds like a great idea.  He has enough wall that the travel along the long wall through the woods would be cool and only in need of a shelf type layout. As we get to the end it can widen out to serve the logging camp..

Thanks for the idea

mike

[rs2mike]

UNCLEBUTCH

 I have worked with foam and I like the ease of making landforms and valleys.  I guess I would only really need 8' long boards because the longest module will only be about 4' anyway.  Up top I will probably just use shelf brackets and foam for the upper level

 

NVSRR

I go with the 2x4 and 3/4 inch ply. That way I can lean.on.it and and move it. Plus so much.lumber hits the stores green that there is no way to be sure the straight stuff you.bought.will be straight when you use it. I avoid the foam too. To much warpping with that too. I use easy Matt for the road bed.

 

 

2x4 plus 3/4 ply is over kill,your supporting a couple pouds of plastic, not engine blocks. I have never sean or heard of foam warping, I don't think its even possible.

If you want to rip plywood,you'll need stright cuts,table saw,good fence, and extra hands.

1x4s is my choice,be picky when you buy,if you can get by with 8ft and shorter, there is less chance of cupping and twisting. With today's lumber, you will still need some luck.I prefer foam ; way easyer to create land forms,others like ply.

My tables are built from recycled lumber and foam,I can and haved stood on them plenty strong enuff

 

[rs2mike]

BigDaddy

 

 

UNCLEBUTCH

If you want to rip plywood,you'll need stright cuts,table saw,good fence, and extra hands.

 

 

Based on this article http://mrr.trains.com/how-to/get-started/2011/11/benchwork-for-your-model-railroad I mis-remebered 3" and went to Home Depot and got them to rip a sheet of 1/2 or maybe it was 5/8" birch to 4" strips.  Birch is the good stuff, not the stuff you run your hand over and get a dozen splinters.  If I had to do it over again, 3 1/2 would be more efficient use of the wood.  They charge after the first or second cut, but they have the equipment and I don't,

It was cheaper than 1x4's of good quality.

I used 1/8" ply for a top on which I put 2" foam.  People tell me that ply was unnecessary.  I used it because it was cheap and or free and it provides a place to screw in switch machine or terminal blocks.

 

This sounds like a good idea as well for screwing stuff into from the bottom.  With 16" on center this should be plenty strong enough for what we are doing.

[rs2mike]

BigDaddy

 

 

UNCLEBUTCH

Was it still cheaper even with the extra cost of ripping?

 

 

I think so, the extra cuts were $1.  According to the website a 1/2 x 4 x 8 is $32 http://www.homedepot.com/p/Sande-Plywood-Common-1-2-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Actual-0-472-in-x-48-in-x-96-in-454532/100017950

That gives 11 + 1 narrower 4" boards, say $13 dollars for 13 extra cuts totals $45.  A "premium" 1x4x8 is $6.13   http://www.homedepot.com/p/1-in-x-4-in-x-8-ft-Premium-Kiln-Dried-Square-Edge-Whitewood-Common-Board-914681/100023465?MERCH=REC-_-NavPLPHorizontal1_rr-_-NA-_-100023465-_-N   11 of those are $67

edit O e day I would like to type in English without 5 revisions

Those are my best guess based on what I see on the website.  It also assumes the premium 1x4's are straight.

 

This is the reason I was thinking of ripping my own from plywood.  I have a large table saw that we can transport to his house to use.  With 2 of us we could rip down a bunch in one day then drill holes for wires another day and assemble on a third day if necessary. 

 

[rs2mike]

Thanks guys for the great ideas. 

The dimensions of the room are as follows.  I would load up a pic of what I drew but photobucket and I have not been playing well as of late on my apple products.

long wall-217.5"

short wall to closet-57"

closet wall -30.5"

closet width-54.25"

closet to furnace room door-18.25"

furnace room door-36"

furnace door to entry way door-93.75"

entry way door-39"

entry way step to long wall-106.5"

only caveat is that we need to leave about 3.5' for removal of a furnace if ever necessary.  Although it is brand new you never know right.

There is more room in the furnace room but it is allocated for storage shelves and extra chairs for the dining area.

Mike

[fwright]

Building HOn3 modules, and monitoring a couple of HO module groups, a common thread occurs. 

Anything less than 3/4" quality (7ply or better) plywood for the end plates ends up distorting over time. 

The stringers can be much lighter stuff, but we found plywood strips are much more stable than lumber.  Some use 5mm plywood stringers with a 5mm bottom plate, some use 1/2" ply stringers, no plate.  Stringers are typically 4" - 6" high.

Subroadbed - again anything less than cabinet grade 3/4" plywood supported at at least 18" centers means it doesn't stay flat long term. 

Foam (blue and pink stuff) off-gases and shrinks in the 1st 2 years of life.  Either the glue lets go of the foam, or the shrinkage bends the plywood when the glue holds.  If you can buy the foam and let it sit for 6 months, the remaining shrinkage will likely be small enough to be tolerable.

Modules that weren't built well enough end up with some of the following:

• "ski jumps" or dips in the track at the module ends.
• dips and humps in the track over the length of the module.
• end plates not square to the track end in all 3 dimensions and/or not flat enough to clamp to neighbor module
• without gaps

Sometimes you can get away with lesser construction in a home layout, and sometimes it will bite you after an unusually wet or dry winter or summer.

things I have learned

Fred W

 

[rs2mike]

Good stuff thanks Fred

 

[Anonymous]

I used 3/8" A/C ply on 1x4 select grade pine (#2 or better).  I hand picked my lumber from a local lumber yard (that is rail served!).   None of it is cupped, bowed or bent.  I tested it with a hygrometer.   Didnt buy anything that had more than 30% moisture content.  Construction did not commence until I had consitant readings below 10% for over a week.

I did not start construction for several months.  I let the wood sit in my living room on a sheet of plastic (where the layout was being built).  I had a de-humidifier running the entire time.  I rotated which wood was on top.  I added weights as needed to keep it straight. 

A hint here:  You can save quite a bit of money by purchasing longer lengths of lumber.  You just have to keep them on a level surface while they are drying and rotate them/weight them to keep them stable.

Do not use Home Depot and Lowes if you can avoid it.  Most of their lumber is framing lumber and their select grade is overpriced (and mostly junk).

Dont buy lumber that is stored outside.

 Each section is a table with two legs (also 1x4).  There are 2x2 square pieces that where drilled; T-nuts and carriage bolts installed.   These were attached to the legs. 

Each table is a Box made of 1x4s with 1x3 or 1x4 cross pieces.  Each section was bolted together for easy removal.   When bolted you could lean on the whole thing with no issues.  The layout was stable.  On top of the plywood I attached 2" Blue foam, and used Woodland Scenics foam risers and inclines.

If I had to do it again, I would use splines made of MDF.

MR has a book on benchwork.

[hon30critter]

fwright

things I have learned

Fred:

Thanks for summing up the pitfalls of module building in very concise terms. I think it would be safe to say that someone building a layout in a garage, as I will be doing, would do well to follow your recommendations. Your post answers a question that I have asked myself many times i.e. "What can I safely get away with?". The answer is "Very little!".

Regards,

Dave