lifeontheranchHardboard is insanely easy to cut.
Definitely! And don't waste money on tempered hardboard, either. The "tempering" refers only to the hardness of the surface - good for a smooth top on a work surface, but totally unneeded for a lighting valance or for layout fascia. If you use the LED strip lighting, you could make your valance 6"-or-so, and get a lot more mileage out of a 4'x8' sheet.
Wayne
lifeontheranch Hardboard is insanely easy to cut. A $30 Harbor Freight circular saw would do fine.
Hardboard is insanely easy to cut. A $30 Harbor Freight circular saw would do fine.
I do have a skil saw but with a heavy duty blade, as well I have a jig saw. When I did the fascia board on the old layout I simply attached it with screws and cupped washers and went at it with the jig saw to create the land contours edge, went very well but I'm not so sure I could do straight lines, then again a 1x4 clamped to the board would probably make a nice straight edge to follow.
Lynn
Present Layout progress
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/290127/3372174.aspx#3372174
doctorwayne lifeontheranch Hardboard is insanely easy to cut. Definitely! And don't waste money on tempered hardboard, either. The "tempering" refers only to the hardness of the surface - good for a smooth top on a work surface, but totally unneeded for a lighting valance or for layout fascia. If you use the LED strip lighting, you could make your valance 6"-or-so, and get a lot more mileage out of a 4'x8' sheet. Wayne
lifeontheranch Hardboard is insanely easy to cut.
Wayne you are so right, even a 12" valance would make a nice block for the lite to stay focused onto the layout, and like you said a sheet would go so much further.
Thanks guys
Would 1/8" be thick enough?
1/8" is actually better if you are going to put in curves. It's much easier to bend. Even if you are not putting in curves it will still be easier to work with.
Keep in mind that the valance is not a structural component. All it has to do is hang there. The brackets will support the minimal weight of any wiring that you run behind the valance.
I have noticed that a lot of guys use washers with the screws to attach the hardboard. I'm not sure that is necessary. To me, pre-drilling with a countersink bit and plain drywall screws would be fine. I have an attachment for my drill that holds both a countersink drill and a screwdriver bit. It makes it really easy to drill the hole and then just flip the drill bit/screwdriver head and install the screw. Any tool supplier should have them.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-8-Drill-Flip-Drive-Complete-Unit-DW2701/202579928
If I can make a suggestion regarding the blade for your circular saw, you might consider spending a bit more money for a carbide tipped blade. Hardboard is very hard on saw blades. (I don't know if this is the right size for your saw).
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Avanti-7-1-4-in-x-60-Tooth-Fine-Finish-Saw-Blade-A0760R/202021695
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Dave I used cupped washers doing the benchwork fascia but I'm thinking the drywall screws with PL may give an opportunity for a nice prefinish before prime and paint, I think the stuff I used before was 3mm or 1/8.
Hey Lynn:
I edited my previous post so I don't know whether you saw it before or after the edit. Anyhow, all I added was a suggestion to use a fine toothed carbide blade to cut the hardboard.
I'm a bit envious. I haven't even started my first layout yet and here you are working on your second. I hope you preserved that wonderful trestle that you built.
Thanks for the suggestion Dave, I'm going to check in the morning to see if homedepot will strip the hardboard and if not I'll get a good blade.
Actually this is my 6th layout, so much learning.
i know the guy on video used 2x2 to screw the valance to , I'm not quite sure how you attach a 2x2 when your going parallel to the floor joice. I think to get a curve you just go off the end of the 2x2 and curve to the next , at least I think so.
Another thought came to mind, I wonder if peeps have ever used a curtain for valance ?
1/8" hardboard, tempered one side (nicer paint surface), 2x4 supports and stiffeners (some parallel to joists), plywood blade in table saw, countersunk drywall screws, drywall tape and mud.
The whole process in mind numbing detail with pictures starts here: http://www.lkorailroad.com/upper-valance-part-i/
Alan
Freelancing the LK&O Railroad
wickmanMike I'm thinking you may have misunderstood the question, what I'm saying is how high do you start your benchwork off the floor if your hanging a hardboard valance for boxing in liting? My basement is completely finished and insulated already so I'm working off finished walls. My previous layout benchwork started at 50 inch off the floor and went up from there but with a valance if it were 2 feet off the ceiling I don't think the previous layout benchwork height would work.
Yeah, I was thinking backdrop, not valance.
The valance need only conceal the lighting, as that what it does. So doesn't much matter how high your benchwork is, it's the line of sight you have toward the ceiling vs location of the lighting that's important with the valance. This assumes the lighting is properly positioned to light the layout.
Where it could get dicey is if you have very high benchwork, say on a second deck. Even then, so long as you have a view of the scene, you're good with surprisingly little. Because they have barely any vertical height at all, LED strips work well with very little valance. This is the one place where I do have a valance of sorts, really just a 1x2 that hols the LED strip on the backside. Total vertical depth in this area, Crater Lake Junction, is 10" because of staging below and an air duct above.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
lifeontheranch 1/8" hardboard, tempered one side (nicer paint surface), 2x4 supports and stiffeners (some parallel to joists), plywood blade in table saw, countersunk drywall screws, drywall tape and mud. The whole process in mind numbing detail with pictures starts here: http://www.lkorailroad.com/upper-valance-part-i/
Alan I can easily spend a day reading through your site , excellent job on the editorial , very easy to understand. I seem to recall a few years back the pile of xtrackcad rail plan in the memorial, I had done the same a few times now.
mlehman wickman Mike I'm thinking you may have misunderstood the question, what I'm saying is how high do you start your benchwork off the floor if your hanging a hardboard valance for boxing in liting? My basement is completely finished and insulated already so I'm working off finished walls. My previous layout benchwork started at 50 inch off the floor and went up from there but with a valance if it were 2 feet off the ceiling I don't think the previous layout benchwork height would work. Yeah, I was thinking backdrop, not valance. The valance need only conceal the lighting, as that what it does. So doesn't much matter how high your benchwork is, it's the line of sight you have toward the ceiling vs location of the lighting that's important with the valance. This assumes the lighting is properly positioned to light the layout. Where it could get dicey is if you have very high benchwork, say on a second deck. Even then, so long as you have a view of the scene, you're good with surprisingly little. Because they have barely any vertical height at all, LED strips work well with very little valance. This is the one place where I do have a valance of sorts, really just a 1x2 that hols the LED strip on the backside. Total vertical depth in this area, Crater Lake Junction, is 10" because of staging below and an air duct above.
wickman Mike I'm thinking you may have misunderstood the question, what I'm saying is how high do you start your benchwork off the floor if your hanging a hardboard valance for boxing in liting? My basement is completely finished and insulated already so I'm working off finished walls. My previous layout benchwork started at 50 inch off the floor and went up from there but with a valance if it were 2 feet off the ceiling I don't think the previous layout benchwork height would work.
I think Alan did all the math for us but I think it is a good idea to take in account my 5-7.5" height. Last layout when I raised the benchwork to 50 some odd inches the view of the layout was so much better and so again I think Alan's calculations of 18 or so inches for the valance is pretty darn close to whats needed. I just have to do some calculations for catching the parellel to valance floor joice's.
I got the guy at lumber store to rip two 4x8 sheets into 6 lengths and there all pretty close to 16" , well for the most part any way. Now I need to decide if I'm better off with 2x4's like Alan used or 1x4 and a 1x2 like my old layout legs. I also think it may be best to bring the valance out past the edge of the benchwork by a couple inches. I looked at rope liting at homedepot but I don't think its the same quality as Mike is using.
Benchwork is assembled and staged to be raised once the valance is completed
Dimensional lumber's strength is across the grain, not with the grain. How you position the lumber relative to the hardboard (and load) determines what size lumber to use. 1x lumber is strong if the load is across the grain like in your benchwork. 1x lumber is weak if the load runs with the grain. Using lumber across the grain in a valance support application blocks a lot of light area. That is why my valance supports are 2x4s. In my application, and I suspect yours, the valance lumber is used on its weak dimension hence the use of heavier stock. Since a valance hangs there is minimal vertical load. The loading is horizontal at the curves and holding the hardboard straight and true. Much smaller lumber could be used successfully if cross supports to the wall are employed as they would then do the load bearing.
Lumber upsized because of being used on its weak dimension:
lifeontheranch Dimensional lumber's strength is across the grain, not with the grain. How you position the lumber relative to the hardboard (and load) determines what size lumber to use. 1x lumber is strong if the load is across the grain like in your benchwork. 1x lumber is weak if the load runs with the grain. Using lumber across the grain in a valance support application blocks a lot of light area. That is why my valance supports are 2x4s. In my application, and I suspect yours, the valance lumber is used on its weak dimension hence the use of heavier stock. Since a valance hangs there is minimal vertical load. The loading is horizontal at the curves and holding the hardboard straight and true. Much smaller lumber could be used successfully if cross supports to the wall are employed as they would then do the load bearing. Lumber upsized because of being used on its weak dimension:
Thanks Alan I see your point. I think you may be correct with at least 2x4's for the ceiling and the near 4" width may help in grabbing the floor joist. Must be so much easier having an open ceiling.
For the light weight of that hardboard valance, a 1x3 with 1x2 L girder would be MORE then strong enough to not sag - unless you plan on hanging more stuff from it, or your home is inhabited by a troop of acrobats who will want to swing from it. There's enough depth that I can see the need for a stiffener, but another 2x4? A 1x2 with the 1" side against the hardboard would do there. You'd be making a truss of sorts with the hardboard and the 2" side of the 1x2 and that would be quite stiff. Again, unless you are intending to attach a whole lot more stuff to this, this isn't load bearing at all. A 1x2 L with a 1x3 would give almost the same attachment area as a pair of 2x4's in an L for then end that goes against the ceiling.
RE previous comment about washers - especially on 1/8 hardboard, by the time you countersink the screw you're halfway through the hardboard. A good tug will rip it right off the screw - been there, done that as part of tearing down an old layout, no effort at all. I'm sort of liking the the screw caps from the last Off the Rails video, even more so than the washers which I've used before, completely hide the screw instead of drawing attention to it by the shiny washer.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker For the light weight of that hardboard valance, a 1x3 with 1x2 L girder would be MORE then strong enough to not sag - unless you plan on hanging more stuff from it, or your home is inhabited by a troop of acrobats who will want to swing from it. There's enough depth that I can see the need for a stiffener, but another 2x4? A 1x2 with the 1" side against the hardboard would do there. You'd be making a truss of sorts with the hardboard and the 2" side of the 1x2 and that would be quite stiff. Again, unless you are intending to attach a whole lot more stuff to this, this isn't load bearing at all. A 1x2 L with a 1x3 would give almost the same attachment area as a pair of 2x4's in an L for then end that goes against the ceiling. RE previous comment about washers - especially on 1/8 hardboard, by the time you countersink the screw you're halfway through the hardboard. A good tug will rip it right off the screw - been there, done that as part of tearing down an old layout, no effort at all. I'm sort of liking the the screw caps from the last Off the Rails video, even more so than the washers which I've used before, completely hide the screw instead of drawing attention to it by the shiny washer. --Randy
Thanks Randy, I had thought of using the 1x2 and 1x3 screwed together in an L shape only because I saw them laying on the floor , they were the verticle legs from my old layout. Would you suggest a 1x3 or 1x4 for the valance joints?
At the big box stores around here a 1x4 costs the same or more than a framing 2x4 presumably because of price point sensitivity. Either is about $2 for 8'. Smaller size 1x, other than crooked lathing strips, are even more expensive on a board foot basis. Reusing your existing lumber is free. Hard to beat that price.
1x lumber is great for the L girder ceiling attachment. The problem with 1x lumber is the lower edge stiffener. 1x lumber would require you use it on edge which makes your drill point placement critical. A 2x4 laid face-on is an easy screw target with no measuring needed. The strength issue is not so much about supporting weight as it is about resisting warping and shaping the curves. If hardboard of any appreciable height is attached at the ceiling L girder and then bent to form a curve, the natural relax response of the hardboard will cause the bottom edge radius to be greater than the top radius. This makes for an odd cone-like appearance. Too many pictures of layouts on the web show valances without lower edge stiffeners that are all wobbly and bowed with coned curves when viewed edge on. If that is of no concern to you then no issue.
I totally agree with Randy about countersunk screws in 1/8" hardboard not having a lot of horizontal holding power. They don't. Fortunately, the need for horizontal hold is minimal. There is no outward pressure on the valance. Countersunk screws have more than enough hold to keep the hardboard in place. Vertical hold of countersunk screws is excellent so no issue there. If you want concealed fasteners your only other choice is adhesive which has its own installation challenges. Glued or screwed, if someone tugs at my valance then falling hardboard is the least of their worries. My fist hitting their jaw is a bigger concern.
I have used track lighting and posable spot lights. I am now using LED bulbs and the current draw is much less, and heat generation is almost zero. The traks will screw into the drywall and studs easily. I like to be able to direct the lighting theatre style. I still have fluorescents for the middle of the room, though. Best regards, andy
Thanks Alan.
Thanks for the information CNSF and Andy Chandler.
For the dimensions of the benchwork I posted, 30 inch on the narrows and 4 foot square on each end, for each type of lites how many would I need and what would the place be for them?
For fluorescent would it be 4 ft singles or 4 ft double? As well if I used track lites with pots? LEd's?
I think I may be further ahead figuring out the lites before installing the valance especially seeing as the benchwork is made up and laid out on the floor where it will go.
I think if I need a tight enough radius for it to matter I'd cut a piece of plywood to the curve radius and use that as a stiffener - not a full half circle, just a chord. That way the hardboard would be forces to maintain the radius top and bottom (one piece up top, one near the bottom, to prevent the coning effect).
The fact that I want my screws to all be a nice horizontal row (laser level or old-school chalk line) kind of makes the narrow target point moot.
There are certainly cost advantages to using 2x4's, although around here the 2x4 selection isn't much better - I had to do way too much picking in the highest grade pile just to get enough to build a workbench frame. I can't WAIT to start redoing my basement. Luckily much of the background for my modleded area is rolling farmland... I was strongly considering going with ripped sheets of good birch plywood for the 1x lumber.
CNSF and others:
You can buy end connectors for LED strip lighting which eliminate the need to solder directly to the strips themselves:
(These are Canadian eBay listings)
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/10Pcs-PCB-Cable-2-Pin-LED-Strip-Connector-3528-5050-Single-Color-Adapter-Useful-/252311701742?var=&hash=item3abef308ee:m:miPBbbvDOi1Iw2L_f5q_NiQ
You can also buy them without the wires so you can butt two strips together (being careful to not exceed the maximum draw for the power supply of course):
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Solderless-Clip-on-Coupler-Connector-2pin-4pin-RGB-for-3528-5050-LED-Strip-Light-/261985429330?var=&hash=item3cff8c6752:m:mJnJwq-Cp8I7VxQ7Rz8M-BQ
Make sure you get the right clips for your particular LED strips.
And you can cut the wires and have 2 feeders for more strips. They work very well. My workbench lighting has 3 rows of LEDs, instead of trying to curve the strips I just cut them into 3 pieces, and used the connector wires to link them. The total length was less than half the reel, so the power supply is only half loaded.
Amazon has the connectors. Do heed Dave's caution - the different types of LED strips are different widths so you need to carefully pay attention that the connectors are the right size for yoour strips.
Also note that there are different connectors for waterproof and non-waterproof strips.
wickman Thanks again guys for the great input, lots of very very detailed information that I appreciate you's taking the time to write up. I think for now I'm going to concentrate on getting benchwork up and get myself re-acquainted with the RR room. Biggest problem I can see if I were to go pot lites would be getting the wiring through the joist but if I were to go track liting the wireing could be on the surface of the ceiling and same applies for tubes and rope lites but to get the hardboard hung neatly would take some thinking.
Thanks again guys for the great input, lots of very very detailed information that I appreciate you's taking the time to write up.
I think for now I'm going to concentrate on getting benchwork up and get myself re-acquainted with the RR room. Biggest problem I can see if I were to go pot lites would be getting the wiring through the joist but if I were to go track liting the wireing could be on the surface of the ceiling and same applies for tubes and rope lites but to get the hardboard hung neatly would take some thinking.