A lot of my cars will wobble going tru turnouts, most cars, all trun outs. I can not see why. What should I be looking for? Or is some wobble normal?
It dosn't cause derailments, or any other issues. Just don't look right.
What do you think? live with it?
Most are Peco and a few altas ,If that makes a difference
Most out of the box cars are underweight, would be my guess. Yes, you can check to see if your cars wheels are out of gauge, but most trucks are in gauge, even the cheapies. Some Atlas turnouts can be too shallow next to the guard rails or in the frogs, but that doesn't explain the Peco issue.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Besides the above advice, the classic advice is to check the tightness / looseness of the trucks. Typically one should tighten one truck a fair amount, backing off so it swivels easily (of course) but that this tighter one wobbles minimally. That one tends to set the actual (maximum) wobble. The second truck should be loosened a bit more, to allow enough wobble to accommodate track variations that need it. If both trucks are relatively loose, the wobble may be quite noticeable.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Here's my method and there's no cure all woes weighing of the cars involved.
Tighten the truck screws down tight -the trucks will not move,then back the screws off 2 1/2 turns that should end the wobbles unless your cars have deep flanges like AHM,TYCO Bachmann and other train set cars then I suggest either replacing the trucks and body mounting the couplers or just replace the wheel sets.
Also check for foreign matter in the switch like ballast and check the frog and points of the switch for smoothness-I use my pinky finger to feel for rough spots.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Maybe some of these from Proto87 would help.
Hi UNCLEBUTCH.
Having cars wobble is quite prototypical. Several years ago we were in Niagara Falls, Ontario at the top of Clifton Hill. At that time the railroad still ran along the top of the hill going through town. A freight train came down the track. At first it was moving pretty slowly but as the train passed it also started to accelerate. There was some obviously poor track a block or so from where we were standing and as the train went faster the wobbling and lurching over the bad track became very pronounced. In fact, I couldn't believe the cars were staying on the track although I'm sure they were no where near the point of derailing. It actually scared me a bit since we were (perhaps stupidly) standing quite close to the track.
I'm not suggesting that you leave the problem alone if you don't like the way it looks. I would start by setting the truck screws as suggested, i.e. one truck with very little wobble and the other truck more free.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
SouthPenn Maybe some of these from Proto87 would help.
Like the KD washer wouldn't those washers raise the coupler height?
Larry:
The website says the car stabilizers are only .010" thick, and they suggest that the change in couple height is negligable. No adjustment of the couplers is necessary. Here is the 'how to' page:
http://www.proto87.com/fast-and-easy-riders-car-stabilizers.html
South Penn:
Thanks for the link to the Proto87 car stabilizers.
The page you referenced shows two different products. One is a 'truck stabilizer' and the other is a 'truck gimbal'. The gimbals are quite a bit more expensive but I can't find any explanation of the difference between the two. They look the same. In fact, I'd say that the same picture has been used for both products. Any ideas?
hon30critter South Penn: Thanks for the link to the Proto87 car stabilizers. The page you referenced shows two different products. One is a 'truck stabilizer' and the other is a 'truck gimbal'. The gimbals are quite a bit more expensive but I can't find any explanation of the difference between the two. They look the same. In fact, I'd say that the same picture has been used for both products. Any ideas? Dave
Sorry Dave, I don't have a clue.
SouthPenn
I think I'll send them a note to find out.
hon30critter Larry: The website says the car stabilizers are only .010" thick, and they suggest that the change in couple height is negligable. No adjustment of the couplers is necessary. Here is the 'how to' page: http://www.proto87.com/fast-and-easy-riders-car-stabilizers.html Dave
Dave,
The reason I was asking was the KD washer is .010" and .015" thick and that caused me to do some head scratching so,I thought I would ask.
I really like the idea for my older Roundhouse 50' boxcars that doesn't have a truck mounting king pin since I don't and never did like the idea of the truck being attached to the directly floor instead of a king pin like Athearn,Atlas,Walthers etc uses..Roundhouse did use a king pin on the newer cars not sure of when the king pin was added.
Still,I'm tempted to order 2 packs for testing-can't hurt right?
Hi Larry.
I understand your point about the stabilizers being the same thickness as the Kadee gray washers. I have used the Kadee washers on most of my fleet of about 200 Athearn freight cars. However, I don't recall too many cars where I only used one .010" washer to adjust the coupler height. Usually it was at least two .015" red washers and maybe a .010" on top of that.
That raises another question. What if you already have shim washers installed on a car. Do you take them all out, or maybe just one at each end? I'll send Andrew at Proto87 another e-mail asking about that.
I think the stabilizers are worth considering if you have a problem. I won't really know that until I actually have a layout to run the cars on.
OK ,I now have someplace to look ,trucks and weight. Thanks
I,m trying hard to understand just ''what'' those stabilizers are doing .If thire ment to snug up the truck, would thy not, stop free movement?
The small raised area on each side of the stabilizers touch the crossframe of the trucks. This prevents the cars from having a lot of side to side wobbling.
UNCLEBUTCHOK ,I now have someplace to look ,trucks and weight.
The NRMA standard starts at 1", but I don't have any cars that short
3" = 2.5 oz; for every 1/2" increase in length the weight increases 1/4 oz, 4" = 3 oz 5" = 3.5 6" = 4
I am just starting to work my way through my car roster and 1 - 1.3 ounces light is fairly routine.
Hi everyone:
With regard to South Penn's suggestion about using the Proto87 stabilizers, Andy at Proto87 got back to me first thing this morning (note the great customer service!- no, I'm not affiliated).
First, the difference between the 'stabilizer' washers and the 'gimbal' washers:
The stabilizer washers are used to allow one truck to to pivot side to side and the other truck to pivot front to back. That is why they are glued in position with one having the raised pivot points pointing from side to side and the other having the pivot points pointing front to back. The gimbal washers have pivot points on both sides and the points are offset by 90 degrees. That allows the truck to pivot in all directions. Note that only one gimbal is used per car, and the other truck should have a stabilizer mounted with the points facing side to side to keep the car straight up and down. The combination of one stabilizer and one gimbal gives the car the best riding characteristics, but using just the stabilizers on each end with one pointed across the car and the other pointed in line with the car works well too.
In cases where Kadee washers have already been installed to get the coupler height correct the stabilizer washers and gimbal washers can simply be substituted for the Kadees. The stabilizers are .010" thick and the gimbals are .020" thick.
Andy did not answer my question about whether the stabilizers/gimbals can be used in combination with Kadee washers to get the right coupler height, so I sent him another e-mail.
UNCLEBUTCH:
The trucks are not screwed down tight when you are using the Proto87 stabilizers. The instructions say to tighten the truck screws to the point where there is no movement in the truck and then back the screws off 1/2 turn.
Hello Dave.
Thanks for the update..1/2 turn seems to be to tight unless those stabilizers makes up the difference in the truck swing?
While none of my older Roundhouse cars wobble with my normal method (tighten down to no movement then back off 2 1/2 turns) I think I will give them a try since I don't like the trucks attached directly to the floor.
hon30critter Hi UNCLEBUTCH. Having cars wobble is quite prototypical. Dave
Having cars wobble is quite prototypical.
Sure, fair enough. Except an HO car wobbles fast and a full size car wobbles slowly. The Ho car wobble looks toylike and unprototypical. There lies the rub and why people don't like it.
On any kits I built, I would file down the lip on the bolster which would allow me to tighten the screw down to the point the truck will not pivot. Just back off the screw enough to allow the truck to pivot freely but not rock. That generally gets rid of most of the toy like wobble.
Now as for turnouts, I haven't noticed discussion on one of the other root causes, which is some turnouts have a large gap where the frog is, and that creates a "pot hole" effect, so that wheels tend to drop down and then back up. Better quality turnouts have shorter gaps so are better in that regard but another trick modelers do is to add a shim, or glue a shim into the grove where the frog is so that the flange rides on the shim where the gap in the frog is. This minimizes the pot hole effect, which will cause those loose mounted truck freight cars to wobble a lot.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761On any kits I built, I would file down the lip on the bolster which would allow me to tighten the screw down to the point the truck will not pivot. Just back off the screw enough to allow the truck to pivot freely but not rock. That generally gets rid of most of the toy like wobble.
I'll second that. I mostly build kit freight cars and often need to file down the vertical bolster center cylinder that fits into the truck and into which the screw threads. Many are too long, such that when the screw is fully tightened there is a space and lots of wobble. Rather than insert a washer, it's easy to file down the small cylinder so that the screw can tighten the truck to the bolster, then back off slightly to get the desired flexibility needed. That works reasonably well in most cases, leaving the need for extra measures to few cars. The Proto items are interesting and I plan to add some to my inventory, just in case.
Re: the turnouts, if just some cars, try different wheelsets (I mostly use Intermountain 33" metal) to see if helpful. I have few issues with those and my Walthers Shinohara code 83 turnouts.
Riogrande5761
riogrande5761an HO car wobbles fast and a full size car wobbles slowly.
I totally agree with you that most of the time the real cars tilt from side to side slowly, but the cars I was watching in Niagara Falls were not wobbling slowly in any way, shape or form. They were bouncing around like popcorn popping! I'm not exaggerating! Well, I am exaggerating a bit but they were really rocking from side to side quickly and the degree of tilt was significant. It was scarey! I recognize that the situation was an exception.
Please understand that I wasn't trying to suggest that wildly undulating cars should be acceptable on a model railroad, nor should cars that do not sit level. If there is a dip modeled into the track deliberately as some modelers have done, the cars should all move through the dip the same way, and otherwise they should be stable. I posted the Niagara Falls example as an anecdote, not a modeling recommendation. I should have made that clearer.
Regards
I'm an idiot.
I am slowly upgrading my fleet of cars with new wheels and/or trucks. I was changing the trucks on a very old Athern blue box coal car and guess what I found under the trucks. A pair of Proto87 stabilizers. I had completely forgotten about them. I don't know how many I did, but they must work because my cars don't wobble.
Another web site that I visit just to window shop, is Fast Tracks.
Railway Engineering is a site that has some beautiful switches. It also has links to some other interesting sites.
hon30critterIf there is a dip modeled into the track deliberately as some modelers have done, the cars should all move through the dip the same way, and otherwise they should be stable.
Dave,Over the years I've ran several test where I wanted the cars to wobble back and forth but,not in unison where one car wobbles to the right while the other wobbles to the left and so,far I never had any luck duplicating that action that even comes remotely close tothe prototype.
Why would I want that?
Glad you ask. I've always wanted to do a industrial branch with a permanent speed restriction of 15 mph.
I saw a piece of trackage on a layout some time ago that was designed to do what you want. Sorry, I can't remember where. Anyhow, the track was visibly not straight or level. In fact it looked like you would have a hard time running anything down it at any speed. Apparently it gave the desired result with the cars tilting but because the effect was compressed into a rather short length of track the track itself was distracting because it was so far out of alignment.
I have a spot on my planned layout where I may attempt to do the same thing but not to quite the same degree. It is on a spur into a small coal mine that has to cross a wood trestle before it reaches the mine. I think the effect of having the cars lean a bit one way or the other before they start across the trestle would be very interesting given that the whole scene is supposed to be old and a bit run down.
BRAKIEGlad you ask. I've always wanted to do a industrial branch with a permanent speed restriction of 15 mph.
Due to my track laying skills, or lack of, and the many changes I made, Most of my layout is restictive speed. I grew to like it that way.
I was trying for a ; low buget, low profit, layback,short line, serving the same type of industrys. I believe I got there, without trying hard.
I don't how you would do it, but if you made one rail lower than the one next to it, that should give some wobble. Then leave a car lengh of track normal, and then make the opposate track lower.
South Penn
I think your talking about the slow easy rocking swaying movement. I've got that in a few places, and I like it, no clue how I did it.
What I first asked about is a hard,fast "wobble" over turnout. If you could see it ,you would expect a derailment, they don't. Like hitting a couple speed bumps. You all give me some places to look,I started checking trucks, every one seems too loose.
I hope to cure the hard rock without loseing the soft sway, Make sence?