riogrande5761The problem is most beginners (correct me if I'm wrong) probably aren't too keen on running trains back and forth on a short stretch of track
That's not the issue at all, IMHO. Whether continous-run or not, the 4X8 Sacred Sheet significantly limits the minimum radius in HO.
It's especially ironic today that the HO 4X8 is still some sort of touchstone for MR, since sabre saws are relatively cheap and widely available (if using plywood) and extruded foam is an alternative to using plywood at all.
In my opinion, MR would do much more to help newcomers by providing more information on how easy it is to build benchwork that’s not a 4X8 rectangle (or 4X6, in their latest project). These techniques were published more often in the 1970s and ‘80s, as I recall.
If choosing a continuous run and an island-style layout in HO, a 5X9 or 5X10 doesn’t require much more floor space and offers much better radii to handle more recent models. (And of course many other options besides an island would be possible just in the 8’X10’ footprint of a Sacred Sheet HO 4X8 layout and its aisles.)
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
I really can't condemn the good old 4x8 and the small radius curves that go with it. When I got my first train set (HO Scale) as a kid, my folks seeing my love for them talked about where I could put them so they could be set up permanently. My dad suggested getting a sheet of plywood I could set them up on tucked into an out of the way corner in our house and by the end of the day, there I was with (in my 8 yr old mind) a HUGE 4x8 sheet of OSB propped up on 4 old milk crates to get it off the floor. I was hooked. All I knew about model railroading was what I could find at the toys-r-us in the city where my grandparents lived. I never did get my first issue of MR until a good many years later. At the time, I didn't have the skills, and my dad didn't have the time to build anything different, and that was okay. I was happy running my trains on that 4x8 layout. I can say from experience if that first train set had come with curves that wouldn't have fit on that 4x8 sheet of plywood, I never would have had that first layout, and probably wouldn't be in the hobby today because of it.
Mike
cuyamaThat's not the issue at all, IMHO. Whether continous-run or not, the 4X8 Sacred Sheet significantly limits the minimum radius in HO It's especially ironic today that the HO 4X8 is still some sort of touchstone for MR, since sabre saws are relatively cheap and widely available (if using plywood) and extruded foam is an alternative to using plywood at all.
Yes, the 4x8 does limit things; thats absolutely true. And it's been my assertion for some years that the 4x8 is a straight jacket to model railroad design that I've encouraged people not to jump at straight away but consider a few other options if they can open their minds to it. I guess you could say it's my version of the Taco Bell add, "Think Outside the Bun". The model train industry is still recommending "hamburgers" to beginners or space constrained folks when it could offer somthing tastier. Think out side the 4x8 sheet of plywood bun and it opens up new possibilities (and larger radii curves), even if the space isn't there for something a lot bigger.
In my opinion, MR would do much more to help newcomers by providing more information on how easy it is to build benchwork that’s not a 4X8 rectangle (or 4X6, in their latest project). These techniques were published more often in the 1970s and ‘80s, as I recall. If choosing a continuous run and an island-style layout in HO, a 5X9 or 5X10 doesn’t require much more floor space and offers much better radii to handle more recent models. (And of course many other options besides an island would be possible just in the 8’X10’ footprint of a Sacred Sheet HO 4X8 layout and its aisles.) Byron
I agree - it sounds like you've took a page from one of my past posts.
That said, if people are somehow tied to the 4x8 and feel it sacred, I don't want to violate anyones conscience on it. It is a convenient format which keeps things real simple if people just want to go to Home Depot or Lows and make that simple plywood 4x8 layout. I just think it's worth knowing there are definitely other options what will get you larger radius curves without taking that much more space. Well said Byron.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
It is interesting to think that most layouts at public displays are sectional layouts, most layouts in magazines are along the wall empires, and when someone new comes along they start on a sheet of plywood.
I often look at the 4X8 beginner projects in MR and think what if they just cut it down the middle and make the layout expandable. They would not even need to build those sections for the magazine but show what is possible to the reader. Benchwork is not that hard to build and with every hobby you may need to learn new skills.
Steve
riogrande5761That said, if people are somehow tied to the 4x8 and feel it sacred, I don't want to violate anyones conscience on it. It is a convenient format which keeps things real simple if people just want to go to Home Depot or Lows and make that simple plywood 4x8 layout. I just think it's worth knowing there are definitely other options what will get you larger radius curves without taking that much more space.
Your comment got me thinking about how simple it would be for someone (NMRA? World's Greatest Hobby Group?) to put together a simple leaflet for manufacturers to place in every trainset to show some simple to do ideas for what is possible when the customer is ready to move on from the sheet of plywood. Nothing terribly detailed or lengthy, no detailed step by step, just some examples with basic steps. (Cut two sheets of plywood like this, and reasseble like this, etc....) It could even be tacked onto the end of the train set's instructions. Something to plant the seed. Wouldn't think it would be too difficult or costly.
Steve,
The 4x8 is the easiest, most accessable platform to build a layout. While to you or me, benchwork is doesn't seem like a big deal, but for some people, benchwork isn't something that always comes naturally or may be beyond what some are willing (at the early stages) to tackle. They may see it as a means to an end, something thats kind of "in the way" of supporting the thing they want to do, run some trains and add some things like scenery or buildings etc. I think as hobbyists progress, then thats part of the learning process and evolution. As we see here, there are still many who, for any number of reasons still hold a strong attraction to the 4x8 format which includes by necessity, 18 and 22 inch curves. Ultimately it's an individual choice of whether to hold on or break free from that. It's up to the hobbyist and as long as they are pleased, who can fault them. If someone does find that they can't run desired rolling stock that really requires broader curves, then that often is the motivating factor that forces the issue. It definitly was for me.
Water Level Route Your comment got me thinking about how simple it would be for someone (NMRA? World's Greatest Hobby Group?) to put together a simple leaflet for manufacturers to place in every trainset to show some simple to do ideas for what is possible when the customer is ready to move on from the sheet of plywood. Nothing terribly detailed or lengthy, no detailed step by step, just some examples with basic steps. (Cut two sheets of plywood like this, and reasseble like this, etc....) It could even be tacked onto the end of the train set's instructions. Something to plant the seed. Wouldn't think it would be too difficult or costly.
An excellent suggestion!
riogrande5761hamburgers
Russell
Although everyone here agrees that a 4x8 with tight curves is not the best way to go, it would be interesting to know just how many of us here building or operating on 2nd, 3rd or 4th layouts began years ago with a 4x8. I bet the number would be quite high. Newcomers are always eager to run trains and a 4x8 is the easiest way to get started. And all of us were newcomers at some point.
What I find challenging is when newbies already have 4x8 or maybe even a bit larger benchwork built with a flat plywood or foam top. And then post asking for help in designing a track plan for it that includes mountainous terrain with grades and crossovers along with the necessary tight curves. Being encouraging and realistic at the same time can be a slippery slope.
Huntington Junction - Freelance based on the B&O and C&O in coal country before the merger... doing it my way. Now working on phase 3. - Walt
For photos and more: http://www.wkhobbies.com/model-railroad/
No doubt the 4x8 is a popular format among beginners. Few would dispute that. In HO I never built a 4x8. When I was living with my parents my dad built a loft in the garage where I ran some. With college and moving around alot I didn't build a real layout until in a house in Indiana a 16x19 foot layout with 30 inch curves but by then I had lots of reading and planning under my belt for it.
Well I'm "testing the waters" with my first layout in 30 years, a 4x6 with 18" curves (and slightly tighter in places). I realized the limits I would have on engines and rolling stock but I'm OK with that. The challenge for me is to have a simple loop and enough interesting, to me, sidings and industries. The goal is to improve on operations, design, scenary to make it attractive and maintain interest.
My view- nothing wrong with a 4x8 (or 4x6) if space is a big factor and the limitations are understood. My Dad started one three years ago around the same time I got started on my more expansive and complex plan. In his case all he had to work with was a corner of a small spare bedroom. One big benefit- his railroad is essentially finished, while mine is on a 10+ year construction schedule.
Uncomplicated benchwork, no grades and a small footprint does have its place.
Another benefit- a 4x8 is a great platform for experimenting and learning from mistakes. Been there done that!
Hi all
Well when I first started dad made my first board 8x4 as a child it seemed HUGE
I was wraped a big train set.
When I was old enough to build my own layout without help from dad well you guessed it 8x4
Building it for the first time myself scared the hell out of me but any hardware timber suplier or warehouse type store has them its easy and it works
It is something familier and that helps take the fear out of it.
I soon started to realise it was not ideal and there was a better way but without,
that first on my own 8x4 I would not know what I know now.
Because I would not have built the layouts I have built over time some bigger some smaller than that orriginal layout.
And I certainly would not be even be contemplaiting how to try and best use the space that I now have to play with.
After my expierience even knowing the problems of the 8x4 I would still say thats how I started and you will learn from it so that the next one is better.
Its biggest advantage from my perspective faults and all is its do able and can be completed.
I think thats its most important feature it is small enough to complete and has a familier feel to it.
Sacred no but do able yes.
regards John