Team,
Trying to design benchwork for my around the room layout and I decided I am not going to repeat mistakes from the last time. I expect to have all section detected and signalled and all turnouts powered - so lot's of wiring.
Here's my idea:
1. Mount a 2x3 on the basement wall, 18" supporting brackets (2x3s) every 4 feet or so, this should form a very solid structure to mount the bench top on.
2. Create benchtop with 1x4s. A typical would be 8' x 18", framed from a "box" of 1x4s with midsection ribs. Top will be 1/2" plywood.
3. Place the benchtop on the wall framing. I would be able to flip the benchtop (or at least raise it 45 degrees) to do wiring.
Now here's a twist. For additional access, I am wondering if I can leave the front 1x4" off. Will the 1/2" plywood hold the structure in place? The diagram of my desired benchtop is below:
with the frame you describe, wouldn't you need angled supports?
have you considered leaving the wall studs exposed and screwing 1x4"s onto the studs? each board would be +3" for 2x4" studs.
have you considered using 12" metal shelf brackets?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
LION builded layout of him with three decks around the walls, Ewe are not doing this but the bents that I built for the shelves would work for you. Look at my website, and you will find them under "construction".
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
NP01 Team, Trying to design benchwork for my around the room layout and I decided I am not going to repeat mistakes from the last time. I expect to have all section detected and signalled and all turnouts powered - so lot's of wiring. Here's my idea: 1. Mount a 2x3 on the basement wall, 18" supporting brackets (2x3s) every 4 feet or so, this should form a very solid structure to mount the bench top on. 2. Create benchtop with 1x4s. A typical would be 8' x 18", framed from a "box" of 1x4s with midsection ribs. Top will be 1/2" plywood. 3. Place the benchtop on the wall framing. I would be able to flip the benchtop (or at least raise it 45 degrees) to do wiring. Now here's a twist. For additional access, I am wondering if I can leave the front 1x4" off. Will the 1/2" plywood hold the structure in place? The diagram of my desired benchtop is below:
Frankly, I do not understand what you mean in #1 above. Are you planning to nail a horizontal 2x3 to the wall? The 18" supporting bracket supports what? Attaches where?
Leaving off the front 1x4 of your benchtop would probably lead to sagging. I'm not sure because it's not clear what putting the benchtop on the wall frame means.
I think a drawing showing all the structure (not just the benchtop) would be very helpful in understanding what you are proposing.
Paul
Pretty sure you need a front rib. With things only 18" wide you can use a 1x3 instead of 1x4 though. Just make the section sshort - 4' instead of 8', and turn them upside down on your workbench to wire, then put in place. Making it tilt up just adds a whole lot of complication.
Or run all the wiring to the front and then add a fascia. Space the fascia out to leave room for the wiring to run between it and the outer rib.
If those verticals are going to be used to also support a backdrop, you'll want some sort of support, not just screwing the back rib of the benchwork sections to the verticals. The metal brackets should be sufficient for an 18" wide section, very narrow sections can get away with the small right angle pieces that can be found int he same area that mending plates are found. Wider than 18" and you'll probably want a diagonal leg of some sort, if not an actual vertical leg.
Long spans along walls are one place L girder might be useful. If you support yhe ends, an L girder cna span 12 feet with no intermediate legs. The rear girder, closest to the wall, you want to screw into those verticals. You should have verticals at each stud, although with a solid L shaped bracket of some sort, you could probbaly get away with every other stud. Plus the joists give you a place to attach fascia, and you can run all wiring to the front of the layout and then through the outer part of the joisets, to the aisle side of the outer L girder, keeping it all up front for easy access without crawling under.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I recently constructed the area around Snowden on my Cascade Branch extension in a fashion similar to what the OP is asking about.
There is a "shelf" at the rear for that end of the crossmembers to sit on. The key here was using 3/4" plywood. I used steel brackets to mount it to the wall (2 for 7' section). Then I screwed crossmembers into the plywood from below.
I followed by mounting cleats to hold the fascia to the end of the x-members.
It's a wide area of plywood, which helps, but also needed the rear crossmembers to help the line climb up to the Merry Widow.
The whole thing is quite solid. Clearance underneath is good. I could've actually made it thinner, but needed a fascia that tall to hide my manual switch machines, etc.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I should have mentioned, I am doing this on concrete cinder block walls in the basement, so do not have the luxury of studs.
Ironrooster, yes - a 2x3 horizontally along the wall around the whole room, driven into the concrete. That would become a "lip" on which the benchwork with primarily rest. The 16" x 18" brackets will further support it.
Second, for the "brackets" - that's it, what GregC or Mike mentioned. In fact, structurally I would be doing almost exactly what Mike did.
Randy/Mike- the reson for 1x4" is that a tortoise is 3-1/4" and that means my 1x4 framing will contain everything - so I can pick it up almost like a module and keep it somewhere if we move.
Randy- don't want L-girder benchwork, it is "too fixed" ... we just lived through a remodel which resulted in me having to dismantle the entire layout, and I am trying to keep the entire layout free of legs except existing posts in the basement.
Thanks all for the input - front facia will be needed sounds like. Yes, I will bring the wires up to the facia as much as possible, but it's still pretty hard.
NP
I like Mike's approach. Using 3/4 inch ext-dfpa makes it as solid as a PT boat hull.
My suggestion is to add a narrow steel stud under your joists, on its side, open side facing the fascia - not as an L girder but as a wire run. Then bring all your wiring out to the front, close behind the fascia. You can put terminal panels on pieces of cap strip that snap right over the open front of the stud, use short pieces of cap strip between the panels to keep the wires inside - and avoid the under-layout spider web.
While it would be possible to tip the modules up, doing so once there are multiple tracks crossing from one to the next would probably cause more problems than it would cure. Much easier to keep all wiring accessible from the front without moving layout sections.
One other thing. Label all wires and terminals, and document everything. You'll thank yourself later.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with bulletproof electricals)
L girder doesn't mean permanent - the L girder can simply serve as a shelf for square box modules. But I will let you in on a little secret - I built my last layout in sections that could be moved, lightweight boxes of 1x4 and 1x3 with extruded foam. ANd it came apart when I moved last year. ANd it moved into my new house. And it will NEVER be rebuilt. Probably 99% of such layouts are never rebuilt in the new quarters. It's not that I don't have room, on the contrary, I have TONS more room, and some of it is even in the right size that the layout could be put back together exactly as it was. It's just that none of it fits my vision for a new layout in the new space I have. While it currently remains stacked up in the basement, I will salvage what I can off each section and move on. The foam will make great scenery formas, since glue and other residue on it won;t really cause an issue with breaking it up and stacking. Not sure about the track, I have no plans to use Atlas track this time, and anyway all turnouts will be bigger than the #4's I have.
In the interests of double decking, the upper level will need to be thing. That's part of why I stopped using Tortoises years ago and switched to servos. The frame could be 1x2 and the servo would be totally contained.
Cement or block walls don't preclude attaching things to it, unless you just don't want to attach anything. For poured concrete, that's what Tapcons are for. In my old house, I wired it all for networking and phones, so in the basement I put up a pair of 2x4s horizontally, two Tapcons in each one, and then screwed a 2x4 foot piece of plywood to the 2x4s. I could hang on it, and I top 300 pounds. I'm not real trusting of construction adhesive for other than say holding sheets of extruded form insulation to the wall. However, the thing about using the L girder (or make up whatever you want) is you could do this with just legs int he corners and span the entire 11 or 12 foot wall, and not have anything attached to the wall. Build the sections, work on them upside down laying on the L girders, then flip over and connect to the previous section. No crawling under, actual layout is still in sections. If you move and take it with you - unbolt the legs from the L girders, and 2 cuts, one on each girder, to cut them in half for easy transport.
I've never been a huge fan of L girder eithr until recently. I have a lot of linear space to cover with layout, but I want as few legs as possible so not only can I get under to work on things, but also so that standard totes can fit under to store stuff - not just my train stuff but all the various household things, like sesonal decorations. I've done this before - modularized storgae into all the same size totes which stack nicely - each one gets a label on the end so you know what's in each one, important since they all look alike and there's only so much color coding you can do. Also keeps the peace - I get a big railroad, she still has places to keep all the stuff. Since I have many parts where there is no more than a 10-12 foot run before a corner or bend, I'm seeing more and more potential with L girder to keep the floor open.
gregc Have you considered using 12" metal shelf brackets?
Have you considered using 12" metal shelf brackets?
Attach each bracket to wall at every other stud (if the room is finished). If its a concrete or cinder block wall, I would mount two 1x strips horizontally along the wall, spaced so that the bracket would screw into the strips. You only need a few screws into the wall to hold the strips, unlike many screws needed if you were going to attach each bracket directly to the wall.
Extend the length of the bracket's surface sticking out from the wall by mounting 1x4s flat along the top of the bracket.
Use long 1x3s mounted PARALLEL to the wall (as oppossed to attaching the "joists" perpendicular to the wall, easier to string wires; makes for fewer cuts and holes to drill, IMO). The width of the 1x4 extensions should allow the long joist to abutt each other and be secured from underneath.
Place 3/4 plywood on top of the 1x3 joists. Attach fascia to plywood.
- Douglas
I very recently extended the layout with sturdy, cheap, and non-permanent benchwork used for my entire laout. This I learned from a modeler who also was a retired HS shop teacher. He told me to attach a 1x3 to the top of a 1x2 at a 90 degree angle. Essentially forming an "L" shape.
After doing this twice (for the front and back of the fame), time to connect and secure them. I use 1x2 on each side (one on the left and one on the right). You then screw in 2x4s for legs with adjustable furniture pads. An engineer told me to put the screws that connect the 2x4s to the wood in a triangle shape b/c this shape is the sturdiest setup (see most bridges or roofs for validation).
I then scew 2x4s on the top of the frame every 2 feet. That support the 2" foam on top held by liquid nails. This set up allows me to more easily cut into the foam for wiring, scenery, etc.
Not the only arrangement, but what works for me and pacifies the war dept (wife).
This is classic L girder, although using 2x4's for joists is maybe a bit of overkill, unless you are expecting to walk around on top of the layout. 1x lumber is PLENTY, especially if your top is extruded foam (aka, lighweight). Instead of 2x4's, you can do the same for legs, and at the bottom where you want the leveler, glue in a short piece of 2x2 to give a place to drill the hole for the leveler. If your legs are 4' or less, you can make a whole 8 foot section and then just cut it in half to get 2 legs out of one girder.
The weight of the layout de LION is on the floor, there are only a few screws into the concrete wall to keep the thing from tipping forwared. Our concrete walls are very hard, so an impact masonry drill was used. If you have not one of these you can rent on if you do not have a contractor sort of a friend. Our shop has several such beasts. A Hilti tool will work too, but if you are not used to working with explosives...
Randy,
I fully expect the same: never to actually use most pieces of these "modules" - but to me the entire benefit is realized if I am able to tip up and work on the wiring.
I just did a test module frame 19" wide with 1x4s. I added two 1x4 joists at 32" OC. This contraption is pretty strong and surprisingly held square corners!
Lion,
When the walls of the den are hard, an impact drill is a must and I have one.
Doughless,
Yep- that's the plan. But I am using 2x2's instead of 1x lumber because (a) the walls are a little wavy and so I don't want the benchtops to unseat because the 1x bent a little (b) A 2x gives more bite for a nail going into wood without it having to go into concrete when I start mounting stuff.
NP01 I am using 2x2's instead of 1x lumber because (a) the walls are a little wavy and so I don't want the benchtops to unseat because the 1x bent a little (b) A 2x gives more bite for a nail going into wood without it having to go into concrete when I start mounting stuff.
Smart move there. I was wondering how straight your walls were. They can vary with concrete, less so with block usually. A 1by is a great thing until it's not wide enough. You could probably scab something on to fill potential gaps, if it came down to it, making it wide enough for the rest to get good footing on it.
Success! Thank you so much for all the help.
I was of course a little enthusiastic and so as you can see the finishing of the basement is not yet complete! I am planning on applying a putty to make the posts smooth and paint them as well.
NP01
Nice. I like the beefier brackets.
What I would have done would be to skip the short sideways cross joist in the middle of your box, and replace it with a long board strung along the middle of the box, long ways. Any "racking" of the box or waviness in the long boards would easily be squared up as you attach the table top.
If you're not using a table top and will be using cookie-cutter plywood supporting a grade, then maybe short sideways joists, like the diagram you posted in the OP, would work better. I think a lot of model railroaders use cookie cutter method when making grades and verticle scenery, so a lot of little crossing joists makes it easier to support the plywood subroadbed at various places. But I think they also default to that type of contsruction for table tops too, when you really just need one long joist along the middle of the box, longways. Makes it easier to string wiring under the plywood too.
Doughless ... skip the short sideways cross joist in the middle of your box, and replace it with a long board strung along the middle of the box, long ways. ...
... skip the short sideways cross joist in the middle of your box, and replace it with a long board strung along the middle of the box, long ways. ...
NP01 Doughless ... skip the short sideways cross joist in the middle of your box, and replace it with a long board strung along the middle of the box, long ways. ... Interesting thought. I do worry about an 8' 1x4 bending in that design, but if I used 1/2" plywood it will probably keep it pretty square. I am am going to do partly cookie cutter for grades, but as you see my overall plan is typ 18" wide bench work so most of it is plywood side to side. I was planning on 1/4" plywood to help with weight, but still havent decided because I can more easily do overhangs as needed with 1/2".
I'm throwing out suggestions, and by no means saying that what I'm thinking would work better.
Edited:
I think the weight of benchwork shelves is typically over estimated. Even if you use heavier 3/4 ply, one of those beefy brackets attached every 4 feet should hold up the shelves just fine.
Then its a matter of supporting the ply so it doesn't sag in the middle. Having 18 inch x 8 foot ply sections supported by three 8-ish foot 1x boards set on their edge and strung lengthways would essentially stiffen the ply so that it wouldn't sag. Even 1x2's set on their edge would stiffen the ply just fine.
Then just set the ply sections on the brackets extended by 1x boards attached along their tops every 4 feet. That's plenty of support for the weight of the shelves.
Depending upon how much cookie cutter benchwork you want might change how you want to support the ply from underneath. Or, you can use the table top method exclusively with risers like the ones offered by Woodland Scenics.
NP01I was planning on 1/4" plywood to help with weight, but still havent decided because I can more easily do overhangs as needed with 1/2".
I'll not say never, but you'll be much happier with things in the long run if you use 1/2" or better plywood. It's not just weight, but the stiffness and ability to hold fasteners, etc that also factor in as you proceed to build.
Unless you're laminating extruded foam over it. 1/4" is OK with foam on top. 1/4" by itself is not going to be good, it sags under its own weight.
Rather than drill holes in your masonry walls, why don't you build free standing modules pioneered by David Barrow called "dominos". You can wire each domino individually and build them in various lengths and widths which will be strong yet light weight for moving. Your back drop and fascia become part of each domino, for a finished look.
mlehman ... but you'll be much happier with things in the long run if you use 1/2" or better plywood ...
rrinker ... Unless you're laminating extruded foam over it. 1/4" is OK with foam on top
ok so you top contributors to this forum divided on this makes me feel better. I will have foam on top. I really like the low weight of the 1/4" but three things:
1. Mounting eg tortoises is harder
2. Some curves/grades will depend upon plywood so at least part of this has to be 1/2"
3. I think I am going to end up needing some width extensions similar to Mike to house a building or a parking lot.
so I think it is 1/2" ... Combo would be too hard to height match.
ACRR46 ... why don't you build free standing modules ...