Lynn Wescott suggested in his L-girder writings that the only place glue should be used is to join the pieces together that made up the girders themselves. All other joints should be made with screws only to facilitate making changes later and maintain reusability of the lumber.
Having not followed Mr. Wescott's advice, I've made some changes where I have wished I hadn't glued pieces together. But I have not yet had the opposite experience.
I'm moving up from the lower level of the layout where solid construction is most important to me. OTOH, my upper levels are going to be thinner and more lightweight so the extra strength of the glue would provide more value.
I'm trying to decide if I want to use glue going forward.
Any opinions?
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
I'm sure many other have more experience than me but so far I have almost always used just screws only. I have made some changes or had to redo some benchwork in a few cases so it came in handy to not have glued joints.
The only place I have used any glue at all were some cases such as risers etc. where I used hot glue to hold a piece in place before I drilled the pilot holes and drove the screws home. Mostly I make liberal used of C-clamps to hold pieces together too while building or putting in risers, adjust them to grade and level and then fasten with screws.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
carl425Lynn Wescott suggested in his L-girder writings that the only place glue should be used is to join the pieces together that made up the girders themselves. All other joints should be made with screws only to facilitate making changes later and maintain reusability of the lumber.
I don't know about maintaining the usability of the lumber, but I agree that if you think changes may occur the use of glue should be avoided. And your past experience seems to support that.
I built Phase 1 of my layout with glue and screws, and Phase 2 & 3 with just screws. I see no difference.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I think I agree with Wescott's idea. On my next layout, I will be using glue and finishing nails to construct the girders (don't need screws once glue dries). Every think else will be screwed together to facilitate assembly.
However, it might be interesting to see that if everything was glued together, sort of making the benchwork one solid piece from legs to subroadbed, how that would impact noise.
I think noise is caused by vibration, and my thinking is if you can make everything extremely solid, vibration would be reduced as would noise....but that might not be the way to look at it.
- Douglas
If I remember correctly the L-girders were assembled with screws to hold them together until the glue dried. I think the idea was that the screws could then be removed and reused. Screws must have been expensive then. Or else the better halves only allocated a small amount of screws to the model railroading budget. Eventually it was found that no one removed removed the screws so nails were used instead.
Nails are bad, bad, bad for benchwork for a oot of reasons. Thank goodness for the drywall screw!
Stuff I know is permanent often gets glue, especially if it's something I can't overbuild for some reason. Otherwise, no glue. However, if you can get at thing in a position to apply pressure sideways, instead of in the shear plane where the glue is strongest, smack it with a hammer and it will often come loose. However, the nwer more impressive glues (Titebond III, Gorilla, etc)are often so strong this won't work, so it's good to use glues that aren't so tenacious, like good ol' yellow carpenter's glue.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehman Nails are bad, bad, bad for benchwork for a oot of reasons. Thank goodness for the drywall screw! Stuff I know is permanent often gets glue, especially if it's something I can't overbuild for some reason. Otherwise, no glue. However, if you can get at thing in a position to apply pressure sideways, instead of in the shear plane where the glue is strongest, smack it with a hammer and it will often come loose. However, the nwer more impressive glues (Titebond III, Gorilla, etc)are often so strong this won't work, so it's good to use glues that aren't so tenacious, like good ol' yellow carpenter's glue.
If you don't know where the nails are, you can certainly destroy a saw blade. But once glue dries, there is no need for anything else to hold the wood together.
I've used finishing nails to hold two sticks together until the glue dries and it works just fine. Screws can split the wood if not predrilled...just don't try to saw the sticks if you can't see or don't remember where the nails are!
My grandfather was a cabinet maker and carpenter for a mine. He told my father that if done properly, wood glue is all one will ever need to join two pieces of wood together along a length. You squeeze out a generous amount in a sinuous path along both surfaces, not just the one to be joined. You place those surfaces against one another, and then you slide them back and forth a couple of times, moving about an inch in each direction. You clamp, clean up seepage carefully, and set the whole aside overnight, but for at least eight hours if the ambient humidity is moderate to light, longer if it's above 60%.
The sliding is important, but so is the clamping. Screws do the same as clamping. When I built my L-girders, I used both glue and screws and left the screws inplace. I was up on my sections of my yard on my second layout a lot while laying yard tracks. It was rock solid.
A few layouts back I used screws and glue but have since always used screws. Don't use nails ever. A sliding mitre saw is also a must for those cuts.
Lynn
Present Layout progress
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/290127/3372174.aspx#3372174
maxmanI think the idea was that the screws could then be removed and reused. Screws must have been expensive then.
I'm pretty sure he removed the screws so he didn't have to worry about hitting them with a saw years later.
mlehmanThank goodness for the drywall screw!
I switched from drywall screws to the Spax screws. The first few rows of threads by the point have teeth so they cut their way into the wood. They actually make sawdust and leave a hole behind when you remove them.
carl425 maxman I think the idea was that the screws could then be removed and reused. Screws must have been expensive then. I'm pretty sure he removed the screws so he didn't have to worry about hitting them with a saw years later.
maxman I think the idea was that the screws could then be removed and reused. Screws must have been expensive then.
As I recall, the only place the nails were used was to hold the L-girder pieces together. If folks are doing modifications that require cutting the L-girder, then other structural problems may occur.
carl425 mlehman Thank goodness for the drywall screw! I switched from drywall screws to the Spax screws.
mlehman Thank goodness for the drywall screw!
I switched from drywall screws to the Spax screws.
Spax screws, just like drywall screws, perhaps in combination for specific needs, look good as alternatives to classic wood screws.
My layout legs have always been two 1"x4" pieces screwed together in an L-shape -- Then, screws applied to every inside/outside corner, with at least 3 screws per side (6 per upper leg/benchwork corner) -- Plus, screws used elsewhere for elevation benchwork.
CR&T benchwork is closer to reality, U-shaped with at least 8 inside/outside corners, multi-level, and employs plywood cookie-cutter due to strength needs of traction poles (i.e. no foam base). Screws, and perhaps nuts & bolts, for the upper level will be used. P.S.: Was heavy use of glue mentioned (no)?
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
Every joint in my bench-work was screwed and glued together. I have no doubt I can break the joints apart, if I ever need to.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
If I need life long rigidity, then glue and either nails or screws. Now days with a screw gun, and self drilling screws, they're quicker than nails (unless you have a nail gun). I wouldn't glue anything that might need to be changed later. But I also wouldn't worry as much about hitting one as in the old days. Sawzall.
jim
My bench work was built before dry wall screws were invented. So every screw hole was drilled with a shaped flat head drill bit and the screws turned in with a Yankee Screw driver. I used nails to tack my cork road bed in place and I can't think or another place where I used nails. My L-girders are screwed and glued together, also.
Hi all
I have always glued and screwd all timber joints and generaly over engineered my bench work.
I have never worried about altering things just done it if it needs doing.
I don't worry too much about re use iether because the bits left over after the alteration can always be cut up for something on the layout even if its only to suport a particularly high and heavy mountain peak.
Even the 3.5mm or there abouts left overs can be split into HO scale domestic fire wood if its needed for the layout.
we as a group are pretty good at reusing and re purposing matierial that others would just throw away
regards John
mlehman Nails are bad, bad, bad for benchwork for a oot of reasons. Thank goodness for the drywall screw!
Nails are so 1960's!
L-griders glued, clamped and then used my air powered nailer. Two of use made two 12 foot L-girders in about 15 minutes; because of the nails we had a large section of layout framed up before the glue dried. I also like to use glue on splice plates between roadbed sections, helps stop unwanted vertical curves.
All screws (or 1/4 inch bolts) for me. I don't know of any glue that will hold steel to steel. (My benchwork is all steel studs.)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
DoughlessIf you don't know where the nails are, you can certainly destroy a saw blade. But once glue dries, there is no need for anything else to hold the wood together.
That's probably a good choice if there are no moves planned for the layout. Mine isn't modular, but is designed to be cut into discrete segments, if it ever did come to a move. I probably should've explained that in my case, "permanent" can mean it's part of a discrete section, and not some of the "in between."
Because of that, I just leave my screws in in most cases. While glues can be great, I just don't trust it once the benchwork encounters twisting motions, as it surely would if moved. I can see where screws are in most case, but the Swazall doesn't mind them much...
DoughlessScrews can split the wood if not predrilled...
All my screw holes are pre-drilled. I keep two battery drills on hand just for that reason. One holds the drill bit, the other has the screw bit. And I almost always use the square drive screws. I've got a bad shoulder (the other's not too hot, either) so generally wouldn't drive a nail with a hammer anyway. Most everything I build is screwed together. Makes for some tough stuff. But the square drive is better than Phillips, which tends to walk out of the recess unless you put plenty of pressure on it. The square drive just requires that you keep the bit in the recess, it doesn't try to escape on it's own.
Good tips if you have some physical limitations. I began construction on my layout's benchwork as part of my therapy from shoulder surgery.
Tables? Tables built with drywall screews.
Layout? Layout is built with GLUE. Silicone caluk to be exact.
ROW is foam (or fiberglass in this case) with foam and or fiberglass risers. Only Glue will do. Need to move something, it will just pop off when yanked on.
LIONS are cheap.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
It would be nice that if someone made a blanket recommendation to use or not use something, buy or not buy somehting, that the recommendation came with an explanation or some context with it.
Wood glue glues wood together. You only need something to hold the wood together immobilized until the wood dries. Screws, nails, clamps.........and depending upon the circumstances and execution.....a brick or an old phone book placed on the sticks, works just fine.
True, if life was simpler and everyone faced the same problems needing the same solutions, pat answers would suffice. But it's rarely that simple and even less so with the wide variations in perfectly acceptable solutions in building layouts.
Having a lot of tools in your workbag does require choices, but better more of those than trying to make one size fit all. I'm a firm believe that consistency is a hobgoblin. Better to consider alternatives and explain why you use them than trying to pound a square peg into a round hole because that's all you have.
Not a drop of glue touches my benchwork! I use Sievers Benchwork. It comes pre-cut, pre-drilled and countersunk for included #10 wood screws. It goes together in a flash and is strong like bull and totally immovable. It takes much longer to stain and polyurethane it for appearance and to prevent warpage than to assemble it. We don't need no stinkin' glue.
I started with finishing nails and glue, switched to screw and glue, and now just use screws. I use mostly #10 wood flat head phillips screws.
I have on occasion needed to take apart bench work and reuse - sometimes with modifications. It's easier with screws, which I also reuse.
I find the screws are more than enough. Plus they are easier to see than finishing nails if I need to saw something later.
Enjoy
Paul
Hi,
I've done a number of wood projects in my life and have to thank my wood shop courses at Lane Tech in Chicago (class of 62) for giving me the basics.
My last two layouts (93 and 08) were multi level and 11x17. I used 2x2s for legs (lots of legs), 1x4s and ripped 1x4s for horizontal supports, and 1/2 inch quality ply for the main levels. No nails were used, just coarse thread sheetrock or deck screws held them together, the first nicely lasting for 13 years.
Good quality glue was used in conjunction with screws ONLY where I new there was no chance of revisions later on. The use of glue eliminates any later movements and IMO reduces vibration.
BTW, I was fortunate to have two DeWalt 12 watt cordless drills in building the last layout. One held a drill bit for pilot holes and countersink, the other the screwdriver bit. With two extra batteries, construction was some serious fun.
The beauty of screws is you can make adjustments fairly easy later on down the road.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central