A few threads lately about building large layouts, or having the space to do so, has prompted me to consider a couple of things only indirectly related to layout building. I've got my layout along two walls of a 24x24 foot room. I've got about 100 square feet of layout, and I "share" the room with a couple of couches and a big TV - the "family room" At this point, my layout is almost "done," meaning that the track is glued down and ballasted, everything is wired and there's only one small square of pink foam still visible.
This journey has taken 9 years. So, that averages out to just about 1 square foot of layout-building per month, where "layout building" includes the trains, vehicles and everything else. From the numbers, I use about 18% of the room for my layout.
The two numbers that I think would help in the "I want to build a big layout" discussion are "How much of your trainroom is layout space?" and "How long does it take you to build a square foot of layout?"
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I call my layout a 17'x15' layout, but since it's C shaped (folded dogbone), I really only have 110 square feet of layout that will have scenery on it, plus about another 36 square feet of yard / staging and access tracks. This gives me about 150 sqaure feet of actual layout, not the 255 square feet that the side-to-side dimensions would suggest. This is in a semi-finished basement of 1100 square feet, but shared with woodworking tools, utilities, another layout (my son's), a LEGO play table and lots of storage, for about 15% of the "available space".
The other metric is harder to deal with. I'm nowhere near done, and I've been working on and off for six years (with all the other crazy stuff going on in my life, I often go weeks without any forward progress). So, the foam base is in, covered with Sculptamold, and painted brown. Track is installed. My latest effort, though, has been installing Tam Valley servo switch controllers. This makes operating easier, but all of the turnouts were previously controlled ny hand. Am I making progress? Sure, but it's not obvious to the casual observer (my mother visited in April and commented that I hadn't done anything since her last visit at Thanksgiving...). Likewise, when I take a structure off the layout to paint, weather, and detail it, that's not obvious either, but still progress in my book, yet the structure was already there -- so was it done or not?
I guess one thing that we can all agree on is that the jokers who talk about throwing a layout together in a month or so are speaking from ignorance. I'm guessing that, at an average of about 3 hours a week actually improving my layout, I'm pushing 1000 hours of effort, with at least that much more still to go. So how about 15 hours a square foot?
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
Building layouts takes free time, even for those of us who are "terminally unemployed". While I was able to complete my second ambitious layout, with spline roadbed no less, in six months, my latest project is now in its third year and still about half-done. What happened?!? Life. Well, two lives...heck, three lives. Two people very close to me developed a marked dependency on me that effectively stole the zip from my layout-building joy. I haven't quite recovered, although I have since built two mountains and scenicked a plain where my scissors-wye is situated.
So, Mr. B., you are quite correct. They are good metrics, although they are only partly predictive.
-Crandell
Ok I will have a go as well. This is an insightful thought process. My very first HO layout is under construction for (to be fair) 2 years now. It's in a 368 sq foot basement but the plywood coverage is 172. Track layout is complete on 122 sft. Scenery is about done on about 64 sft. That would be 2.5 sft per month. Oh no wow that's slow.
But I find I will make progress in spurts: for example I will achieve in one day more than what I achieve the rest of that month.
So ... It's pretty hard ...
I have started work on my layout about 7 weeks ago. It´s a T-shaped shelf layout, with the leg of the "T" being detachable. The layout covers an area of not more than 22 sq. ft. and it shares the room with two desks, a sofa, a big wardrobe and a couple of book cases. The room is our "family" room, office, laundry room, guest room and now train room.
In those 7 weeks I put up the benchwork, laid the track, did all the messy work on the scenery, scratchbuilt two docks, wired it, painted and installed the backdrop. This required an average of 5 hours work each day, with less than a handful of days without any activity on the layout. This is quite fast, but as my wife and I spend most of the day in this room, I wanted the layout to look "decent" as soon as possible, just to make the room look nice again to feel comfortable in it. I store all the material I need for the construction in three boxes right now sitting on the sofa, but they empty pretty quickly ...
Even if I could continue to work on the layout in this pace, I think I´d need a few more years before I reach a state where it is "nearly finished" As it is really a small, if not tiny layout, detail is of bigger importance. Ever scratchbuilt a lobster trap in O scale? it´s those thing that will be very time consuming.
A month per sq. ft. - not a bad indication!
Interesting numbers, Mr. B. I had to run them myself. Have right at 400 SF in the main layout room (excluding the new Cascade Branch in all these #s), the only thing in it. It probably takes up around 75% of the room area, with the rest in aisles, so 300 SF of actual layout. I've been working on it for about 25 years now , although the pace has really varied. That's 300 months, but it is pretty much "done" -- just "improving" at this point.
Amazing.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
My guess is the larger the space you have, the more likely you are to have the layout be a smaller percentage of that space. So in answer to the first question, I have a 10 x 18' room in my basement and I am using the entire around the walls of that room - I'm not sure if that qualifies as 100% of the room or not, mainly because there is an operator area in the center around 5 x 14 feet with a chunk out of it in one end.
As for the 2nd question, I'll bet the answer to that is all over the map - it depends on how much free time you have mainly - so I'd guess the retired folks sould speed up the layout building process vs those who have F/T job and families or are taking care of family members and/or grand parents etc. I've made some decent progress on my layout having built now nearly all of the benchwork in the 10 x 18' room, pluse the entire 11 track staging yard in about 4 months time. How many square feet? Approximately 108.
Cheers, Jim
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Something else to consider is how much of your model railroading time do you spend building or operating the layout in the first place.
Its taken me longer to build my 35 x 13 layout than i had hoped. In addition to reworking the mainline twice, and adjusting some spurs, how I go about building the layout adds to the time it takes to build a complete layout.
I like kitbashing structures. I'm not satisfied with buying RTR buildings, or building a kit as designed. Also, I like the concept of turning somebody's unwanted item into something useful. Scrounging for poorly built structures or leftover parts on the used hobby market, and turning it into the perfect (by my standards) structure for the layout is part of the hobby I enjoy. This is something that impacts how quickly the layout comes together.
I could just find a brand new kit at retail price, use the walls I need and save the other parts for later.....something that would certainly save time over trying to find the perfect piece of junk to start with....but what's the fun in that?
Also, if my layout was in a shared family room, my family would demand that the layout be both finished off with proper wood trim, properly scenicked, and properly lit. In other words, the perfect layout....completed in a month!
Priorities differ from person to person, and that will impact how quickly a layout will come together, or maybe how big of a layout you want to build in the first place.
- Douglas
MisterBeasley The two numbers that I think would help in the "I want to build a big layout" discussion are "How much of your trainroom is layout space?" and "How long does it take you to build a square foot of layout?"
The two numbers that I think would help in the "I want to build a big layout" discussion are
"How much of your trainroom is layout space?" and
"How long does it take you to build a square foot of layout?"
My layout is only 4.5 x 4.5 = 20.25 square feet. I've been working on it for 20 years and its less than half done. So that comes out to be less than .5 square feet per year! Of course, I have no idea what the total hours are. So to be real accurate, your going to need to clock in and clock out your total hours. Maybe I average a couple hours a week so thats about 1920 hours over 20 years. So round numbers, ~10 sq ft / 1920 hr = .005 sq ft / hr. Thats about 1 square inch per hour.
MisterBeasleyThe two numbers that I think would help in the "I want to build a big layout" discussion are "How much of your trainroom is layout space?" and "How long does it take you to build a square foot of layout?"
However a few years ago there was a module that had to be done for an event. It was 8 square feet and was completed in less than 2 weeks. That is 0.57 square feet per day.
All I know is, the C.P.R. built a railroad from coast to coast across Canada faster than I am getting my layout done. Maybe I should hire some Chinese Navvies. Now those guys knew how to work.
I have about 250 SQ. FT. layout in a 360 SQ.FT. space. I could have made the layout more than twice that size as I have the room. I think I made the right choice in how big to make it though. As a one man operation I think Mr. B is about right with his 1 SQ.FT. per month guestimate. I will be in my mid seventies by the time I am done in twenty years.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
I think you need to use metrics that take into account how much time you have to work on the layout in a typical month. This means three numbers - the two you suggest and "How many hours will you spend a month working on the layout".
Here's some numbers to screw with your calculations: I have 390 square feet of layout in a 140 square foot room. I have 58 square feet of aisle space (43% of the room). The layout is 5 levels, although the top and bottom are both partially hidden staging and of the 3 visible levels no more than 2 are visible at any one point.
Another complication in applying these metrics to my situation is that I work at home 2-3 days a week. I'm using laminated splines for the subroadbed. It's not unusual for me to take a 10 minute break, glue up a couple splines, then go back to work. A couple hours later when I can remove the clamps I'll take another 10 minutes.
Your idea to provide a sanity check for folks considering a large layout is a good one regardless of how you do the calculation. Bottom line is that even a modest layout takes YEARS to complete by a single builder. It is amazing how easily we forget that when a large chunk of space suddenly comes available.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Thanks for all the responses. I probably should have discussed the question of "how much time do you have to work on your railroad" from the beginning, but it just shows once again how helpful it is to have so many experienced people willing to contribute information and ideas.
When we have a small space, it's important to develop a plan that will give us what we want within the confines of the room. When we have a large space, on the other hand, it's important to temper our enthusiasm with a dose of reality about how long it's going to take to build out that dream layout.
I have seen a lot of layouts over the years and when I look at mine I figure mine is at the top end of what would be a small layout. So how many square feet of actual layout is considered small before we hit medium, large. massive etc?
This is a good conversation but I think when these threads come up too much goes into "how do we fill this room" instead of "how many square feet can you reasonably handle". Given time one has, age one is etc. The smart thing to do is probably decide on the size you can handle and lay it out so it can seamlessly be expanded if you really find yourself building at a faster rate than you thought were going to. I know exactly where my end of the earth will join the new world if I ever get that far.
MisterBeasleySo, that averages out to just about 1 square foot of layout-building per month, where "layout building" includes the trains, vehicles and everything else.
So many aspects of modelrailroading and so many skills needed, but so little time. Mr. B, you got me doing some figuring.
Not including benchwork, lighting, familiarization with DCC and room preparation (garage prep. in my case) I'm right at 1 sq.ft. per month. But wait, can't count most of my trains as they are from my previous DC layout and already upgraded and weathered. Gadzooks, only 4.3 more years till so called completion of my 70 sq. ft., single level flat switching layout.
Can't forget all that's underneath the so-called completion, constructing loads and weathering newly acquired rolling stock, decoder installions, under benchwork storage, etc, etc.
Initially I was disappointed in not being able to have the entire 2-car garage for layout space (wife's car sleeping indoors is a must), but considering time spent so far and $, I'm now content with my piece of the garage.
But, I'm not complaining, I'm having a blast learning and relearning, not to mention that I now have enough layout to do some switching. The switching with sound has been well worth the mid-nite oil burned getting the hang of DCC.
regards, Peter
With the next layout I build, I am not going to let planning get in the way of construction. Yes, that's an odd thing to say. I'm not going to have huge mountains with steep grades, so table top benchwork that screws or bolts together will be the norm. To limit the amount of time it takes to screw and bolt the sections together, I'll use eight foot long boards instead of 4 foot long boards.
After the table tops fill the space, I'll lay my mainline all the way around and get a train running. After that, I'll start planning the the layout in more detail.
I don't know how that method will impact how long it takes to complete the layout. My guess is that I will change things several times before it is completed. But I think even if I planned it down to the last detail before I started anything, I would probably change some things as I went anyway, making the time devoted to planning before building, a waste of time.
Others may see that differently.
My layout room is about 18 by 19, with the helix and one staging yard about 1' by 8' outside the room.
Of the roughly 360 square feet of layout room, the main level of the layout takes up about likely 125 square feet. Another 60 square feet of staging on the lower level.
Since we moved into the house in autumn 2012, I have built and wired the layout room, installed a ceiling, and installed backdrop. I built the helix, and 95% of the track is laid along with every turnout. Maybe 5% of the scenery is done. I am going to guess I spend 12 hours a week on the layout. Some time is devoted to running trains, some to daydreaming, and some to productive layout work. I am going to guess I have somewhere around 1000 hours in to get to the point I am at. I would consider the layout 20% complete at the most and that includes the room. I may have 3000 hours of work left to do, at 600 hours per year. I can see being done in 5 years. Thinking about that, I may have underestimated what percent is left. I think I can be done in under 5 years.
Maybe 200 square feet total. 4000 hours. 20 hours/sq ft, or just over half a foot a week. Need to get more efficient.
Visit look4trains.com
The construction of a layout is NOT a liner process.
LION builded tables and walls, him instaled cable system. Him installed and wired tracks.
So far so good you think. Then him got rid of diesel powered commuter trains in favor of electric powered subway trains. Him pulled up and rearanged miles of tracks. And then for good measure did that once again.
Him reworks subway equipment to the sepcifications of him.
Then him rewires the layout for automatic operation. Looking good.
Then him gets idea to automate the signal sustem, pulls out all wiring and starts over.
Most wiring is back in again, some of it for the third time. Still working out bugs on the third rail bus, and will pull out the old ground bus in favor of the new facia mounted bus. Slowly but surely old wires are coming out and new wires are going in.
In the mean while LION works on platforms, tunnels and other elemnts, but right now wants to finish the wiring and to build and instal the remaining 100 or so signals that the layout wants.
Two steps forward, one step back, and now that summer is arriving, work in the train room grinds to a halt as it is far too hot up there to do any real work or play. LION will build new model-board during the summer. Him can build that in his nice air-conditioned computer studio, once him clears some space off the table. If you think my train workbench was legendary, you have not seen my computer office.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
It really does not matter how much time you have or put into it. It is a hobby and proceeds at its own pace. Now I am back on wires and signals. Call it Wires 304 and Signals 240. They will be done when they are done, if not this summer, then this fall. We do not do much work up there in the summer, for it is far too hot. I'll bring the model board and the signals down here to build them in my nice air conditioned office.
What worries me is: what if I finish the layout? What will I do then. What sort of a hobby would I have? There is only so many times you can run the Broadway Local up and down the pike before it gets tiring. Oh well, that is a bridge far, far away.
As for a big room, or a big layout, I run 14 scale miles of railroad with five interlocking levers. And only two of them operate switch machines, the other three display signals. Sure I have 36 levers on my machine, and yes, there are more switches, but those do not RUN the layout, they layup equipment, allow work trains out to play and stuff like that.
I think (and Mr. Beasley can correct me if I'm wrong, that this thread was intended more as an educational tool for overly enthusiastic newbies who post to the forums about how they have a 20x25'trainroom, and they're going to cover every square inch of it with layout, and be done in a year. Most of us hav somewhat smaller areas than the space's actual square footage would suggest, and we certainly take a long time to build them.
You are right, although my intent was never to curb that enthusiasm, but rather to temper it with a dose of reality. I, too, once thought I'd have a decent semblance of a model railroad done in 8 months or so. That section took me 5 years.
The Lion is right, too. It's done when it's done. Except, well, it's never really done, is it? I'm about to start Phase 3, but is Phase 2 done? No, and neither is Phase 1. It's just that there are no longer enough incomplete projects to keep me from starting another one.
I agree. "Curb" was a bad word to use in retrospect. I often wonder why someone would want to rush, though. Obviously, getting to the point where you can actually run trains is important, though, and I confess to rushing to get to that point (only to have to redo some track later due to performance issues). Once I got to that point, though, it has been a very methodical process, which has provided much of the enjoyment of having a layout.
I understand the "what do I do now" dilemma, though. I use 2'x4' dioramas to satisfy those urges, as well as the ones where I say, "I wonder what it would be like to build a winter scene?"
CTValleyRR I agree. "Curb" was a bad word to use in retrospect. I often wonder why someone would want to rush, though. Obviously, getting to the point where you can actually run trains is important, though, and I confess to rushing to get to that point (only to have to redo some track later due to performance issues). Once I got to that point, though, it has been a very methodical process, which has provided much of the enjoyment of having a layout. I understand the "what do I do now" dilemma, though. I use 2'x4' dioramas to satisfy those urges, as well as the ones where I say, "I wonder what it would be like to build a winter scene?"
[bold mine, above...]
I have related a number of times over my nine years in this forum that I really don't enjoy building a layout. Yes, it is a bit exciting thinking about a new 'wonderful' eureka design, and even the first week or so is exciting. Then, for me it becomes a grind....like roto-tilling the back 40. I want the layout, but not to have to build it. I want to enjoy trains running in something that could pass for realistic scenery, but it's such a pain in the patoot to derive it all.
I fully get that some readers might wonder why I'm even into building layouts...at all. Well, I don't have deep pockets, I do love running trains, and I do love how they run on a reasonably realistic layout. So, if I want 'em, I gotta build 'em.
So, I'm a rusher....and a grinder. For various reasons, it has not worked that way for my latest build. I'm now into three years with large chuncks of time here and there where I haven't even wandered into the loft above the out-building garage to run trains or even to just admire my work. Yet, rushing is what got me to the point where I had little left to do for my first two layouts. I put my head down and went hard at it for hours each day, like I was making a living building layouts.
selector I haven't even wandered into the loft above the out-building garage to run trains or even to just admire my work.
Crandell
Do you think that because your layout is now in an outbuilding, you tend to spend less time at it? I know I am often in the train room when lots of things are going on in our very busy house. I also know I wouldn't be going in for a quick few laps or mini work session if I had to go to another building.
We are planning for our next smaller last house that we will most likely have custom built and the one thing that is a (for sure) is the train room will be in the house for easy access. I want to be able to smell the Prime Rib while I work on a Sunday afternoon.