Hi all,
Here is my layout plan for comments.
The design is a triple deck layout with a train elevator. The minimum radius is 22 inches, and the minimum turnout is an Atlas #4 (actually #4.5). There is a 4% grade up to Brent and Drake (shelf, upper level), but I have a Penn Line I1 2-10-0 to pull the train.
Train lengths will be 5 feet, or an engine, 7 freight cars, and a cabin car. Or an engine and 4 passenger cars.
The layout has 4 major industries and 3 interchanges. It also has 2 stations, a yard with a switcher pocket, and staging for 7 trains.
The layout is based on the Pennsylvania Railroad's New Castle Branch between Mahoningtown Yard and Mercer. The Pennsy's Wolf Creek branch connects to the New Castle branch in Leesburg, and terminates in Drake and Brent (the Wolf Creek branch is shaped like a "Y").
Here's a link to the track chart for the New Castle branch and the Wolf Creek branch. http://www.multimodalways.org/docs/railroads/companies/PRR/PRR%20Track%20Charts/PRR%20E&A%20Div%20III%20TC%201944.pdf
I had to flip several towns to get it to fit in the space available, and I added a coal mine to Leesburg to generate additional traffic.
The largest industry on the layout is Pennsylvania Engineering Corporation, which makes parts for steel mills and ships them out by rail. PECorp is right beside the New Castle Wire Nail Co. In reality, the industries were on the same side of South Jefferson Street, but I didn't have a deep enough shelf to fit it there.
There is an area beside New Castle that is set aside for a desk chair, and there is an 8" step up planned by Brent and Drake to make operating easier.
Lower Level
Middle levelUpper Level
I'm looking for ways to improve this layout plan, so suggestions and comments are welcome.
Also, if anyone has some prototype information for E&A Div3, it would be very helpful for making the layout more realistic and more prototypical.
Thanks,
S&S
Modeling the Pennsy and loving it!
I forgot to mention that the entire layout almost entirely flat except for the climb up to Brent and Drake. The train elevator eliminates the need for grades on the layout, except in two places. I've designed it so that Mercer is elevated 1/2" above Leesburg to separate the scenes a little, which is the second grade on the layout.
Other than that, the layout is flat.
It took my a while and then finally reading your second post before I understood the plan is actually three layers. Possibly marking each layer with Level 1, Level 2 and Level 3 would be helpful. I'm with NDBRR, wouldn't moving shelving around provide you with more space to build a layout? Also, driving the train onto an elevator going forwards means driving the train onto the next level backwards, not a very realistic way to arrive in town.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Thanks for the comments. I've added the labels for the levels.
Traffic is of an out-and back type. Train depart Mahoningtown Yard (staging) with the engines facing the yard ladder, and travel counter-clockwise. They run to the train elevator, and then are lifted up to the middle level, where they run forwards off the elevator (still counterclockwise), and enter New Castle. Train continue counterclockwise up to the upper level, where they are turned and proceed clockwise back down.
Yeah, moving the shelving would be a big help in terms of space, but all the other space is occupied. To the right of the two 24"x48" shelves is an isle and then the furnace and the water heater. Heading down, there is another shelving unit, and then the washer and drier.
In considering shelving placement, I have had to maintain space around the breaker box and the water meter. This seemed to be the most space-efficient way to arrange the shelves, although any alternative arrangement that gives me more space would be greatly appreciated!
NDBPRR, the train elevator may be tricky, but it's a lot better than a helix in terms of space, and it gives me quite a bit more on-layout space to work with. MR and MRP have had articles on train elevators, and I'll try following those. I don't plan on it being powered, which will simplify it a bit.
NP2626, my train elevator is designed as a through track, except for the top level. The only thing that will be backing will be the locomotives, and that will be prototypical, since this part of the New Castle Branch and the Wolf Creek Branch did not have a way to turn engines.
S&S, as drawn I can't see how a train could run forward on the elevator and not have to back off the elevator at the next level. If you have this all worked out, that's good; but, it's unclear to me. Due to water and power your washer and dryer probably need to stay where they are and providing access to the power panel and water meter also makes sense! As drawn, I don't see where the washer and dryer are located. Is there room along the left side of your drawing to head out that way?
You know what you've got to work with. Although loops do exist on some real railroads. they are few and far between. You have three of them, stacked one on top of the other.
I can see doing what your doing, is making pretty good use of the space you have. Personally, I would make two of the layers you've drawn linear in configuration. Maybe return loops to get you back to the elevator; or, move the elevator to a different location on that level. I assume by elevator you mean sort of a cassette that you carry a completed train to the next place it needs to hook onto the layout?
S&S, this is your layout and you can do what you like! Obviously, you've put some thought into all this; so, you really don't need anybody's approval. Still, you did ask for opinions.
NP2626,
The I think about this layout is that it is a counter-clockwise helix. Ignore the loop created by the train elevator, mentally connect the upper (plan) track on a level with the lower (plan) track on the level above it. The train elevator is used to remove the grades that would normally connect the levels. If I forgot to include the dashed line, the track goes through the backdrop at the top of the middle level.
I agree that prototype loops are rare. There are some really interesting occurrences of real ones, though like the Weyerhauser Lumber Co and one of the PRR's ore docks. Ideally, my layout would have had reversing loops on either end of a single track main line, but space constraints were prohibitive - those loops are so darn big!
Technically, it's two loops, since the one end of the upper level never reconnects to the train elevator.
I like the sound of connecting two of the levels linearly, but I'm having trouble visualizing what you are talking about. More detail or a sketch would be really appreciated!
The elevator is going to be a track and roadbed assembly mounted on two vertical drawer guides with an alignment mechanism. I considered using cassettes, as that would allow more flexibility, but I consider the risk of accidently rolling a train off the end too high. A plan with cassette staging would be worth considering, as it would save a significant amount of space, open up a third level for being on-stage, and eliminate a lot of turnouts. Thanks for the idea! I wonder if I could actually model the junction at Mahoningtown Yard...
I really appreciate the comments. I've had this plan sitting for so long, it's hard for me to see how it could be improved or how its unrealistic.
I was imagining the elevator simply being a cassette. Your talking about it actually being an elevator that is not movable excepting for going up and down.
Are you saying that the top level is not a continuous loop? It appears to be in your drawing. However, it might just pass over itself.
I have glasses and although I think they serve me well, I can't read the small print you have on your drawings. Possibly there is information in the notes that would clarify everything.
Mark,
I'm glad, I am not the only one,that can't read it...I tried blowing it up,that made it worse..
Cheers,
Frank
zstripe Mark, I'm glad, I am not the only one,that can't read it...I tried blowing it up,that made it worse.. Cheers, Frank
Although your way older than I am Frank, at 63 and nearing 64 like a runaway freight, the eyes ain't near as good as they used to be!
Mark
NP2626 zstripe Mark, I'm glad, I am not the only one,that can't read it...I tried blowing it up,that made it worse.. Cheers, Frank Although your way older than I am Frank, at 63 and nearing 64 like a runaway freight, the eyes ain't near as good as they used to be! Mark
Yeah,,I surely,can understand,,,In My case,I have Glucoma I think I spelled it wrong,but you get the idea,,,that makes it worse for me..Seeing far for me is OK,but Close,forget it..It is sort of weird,I guess in a way,,I can see,a lot better in the dark,,if that makes any sense..I just use my cheater glasses and keep plugging..
Got it.
I'll see if I can upload a higher resolution copy of my plan.
NP2626: I see where you are talking about. The tracks go over each other with a 6" height separation. The elevator bypass in the area makes it confusing.
Schuylkill and Susquehanna I was wondering if you live near where you are modeling, I live near Sharon just across the Pa line in Brookfield Oh. Jim.
Sorry - I'm in SE Pa. I've been out that way, though. Last time I took a detour and got to see what's left of the New Castle Branch. Unfortunately, I missed Brent and Drake and where the mine would have been.
There is still a lot of rail fanning places here if you know where to look. Next time check out what's left of the Ferrona yard, at one time it served both the Erie and the Penn Central. They were on opposite ends of Sharon and served Sharon Steel, Sharon Tube and the Mallable in Sharon and the PC the Westinghouse in Sharon and the Valley Mold in Sharpsville and Sawhill in Wheatland. These were the main sites when I was a kid, I used to walk down the tracks to school and stop at the switch heaters to get warm in the winter. Now its all owned by the NS. There is a large yard in Youngstown that NS and CSX use, they also use the wye in Hubbard Ohio the one line goes by me about 1000 feet down the road. It goes north to the docks in Erie, Pa. and Ashtabula, Oh. We also go down to Lowellville, Oh. to watch both railroads as it they go thru New Castle also. There is also another wye at RO in Masury, Oh. that served the back side of Sharon Steel and Howell Ind. they used to stamp out auto parts. Also the large GATX plant in Masury- Hubbard Oh. it was a very large tank car builder and repair shop. Hope this gives you some idea of what's around here and maybe something to model at the ends of your layout. Good Luck. Jim.
It appears to me that the train elevator forms a portion of the loops on each level. With the exception of the upper level, any train operation from the Mahoningtown yard or New Castle gets severely limited by the chasm formed if the elevator is at another "floor". In the case of Mahoningtown it appears that you will not even be able to pull any of the yard tracks totally because the switcher will fall into a hole w/o the elevator in place.
To a lesser extent this same thing happens on the middle level if you try to pull a cut of cars at the top (station) end of the yard. It appears that you can pull a cut of cars at the yard lead end by using the elevator bypass track. However, I'm not sure how you will see what is going on at that lead from the yard since it is several feet away and the upper level will be in your line of sight.
The 8 inch step up will make operation/access easier at Brent/Drake but will become a tripping hazard for the two lower levels unless you make it retractable so that it can be slid out of the way.
If I understand the upper level correctly, you have another shelf on the bottom left that has a lead from Leesburg. I think this gives you the same "can't see what's going on" condition as on the middle level.
I've heard of train elevators but have never seen one in operation. I remain leary of their practicality. If you are adament about having this feature it would be my opinion that you would be better served by moving it from the proposed location and relocating it to the lower right corner. On the middle and upper levels you already show a track extending off to the right. By doing some reconfiguring of the track on those levels and on the lower level you can have the elevator at the end of all the runs rather than in the middle. That way if the thing doesn't work you can at least fiddle the cars between decks by hand.
Jim,
Thanks for the tips of good railfanning locations! I'll have to write them down and see if I can check them out next time I'm out that way. Meanwile, I'll just have to settle for checking them out on Google Maps.
maxman,
Great point about the "chasm" caused by the elevator at another floor! I missed that on the first iteration of the plan. I included elevator bypass tracks along the bottom wall on the upper two levels. At this point, no bypass is necessary on the staging level, but if I do put a fiddle yard in and open up the lowest level, then that one will need a bypass track too.
Thanks for the tip about the elevator bypass location and the upper end of the New Castle runaround. It looks like I will need to add a crossover in the middle of that track to make operations work when the elevator is elsewhere. I was planning on operating the middle level from an office chair and using infrared sensors and lights on a control panel to show what is going on. It's inconvenient, but it's the best solution I can think of. I'll try moving the switch for the bypass and see if that resolves the problem.
I love your retracting step idea! How would you go about it?
Schuylkill and SusquehannaI love your retracting step idea! How would you go about it?
Probably he easiest thing to do would be to come up with some sort of folding arrangement. Step folds upward when not in use, and then drops down when needed. Another option would be to have the step slide in and out like a flat drawer.
In either case you would have to do whatever engineering is required to come up with a sturdy platform to support whoever will be doing the standing.
S&S,
How about one of these;
http://www.vestil-equipment.com
zstripe S&S, How about one of these; http://www.vestil-equipment.com Cheers, Frank
What I just found out about the link,although it is the manufacture'r of them,you have to do a search for them,,,,I was looking at rolling step stools,put that in the search and it will bring them up.....Look's
to me like it may be a solution for you,,,,it's two step on hidden wheels built in to it,when you step on it,,the base sits firmly on the floor,when not on it,,it rolls out of the way,,,,it said it supports 500lbs,but it is not big at all.
Thanks zstripe!
That long step is perfect for what I need.
I finally got the higher resolution plans uploaded. We lost a couple of days of uploads (check the dates in the gallery), no idea why. I had to re-upload the plans. Then a busy weekend. Well, here they are.
Middle Level
Upper Level
The little numbers in black are the milepost. The mileposts for the Wolf Creek Branch start at 0 at the switch.
The larger numbers in blue are the elevations above the floor.
Again, the minimum radius is 22" (except as marked), the minimum turnout is #4.5, and the maximum grade up the branch is 4%. The train length is going to be 5 feet (engine, 7 freight cars, caboose or engine, 4 passenger cars).
See the first page for the link to the E&A Division 3 track chart.
This track plan has become a planning blind spot for me, so any and all comments are welcome and appreciated.
P.S. Click on the images and then press ctrl + and ctrl - to zoom in and out so you can see all the detail and read the mileposts. Sorry about the image size in the post.
If I were going to build a train elevator, I'd be looking at ways to get the most return out of my engineering effort. Why not build the elevator like a display case and use it as a vertical staging yard? You could eliminate the bottom level of the plan or even better use the real estate for something else.
You may also want to reconsider whether or not you want it to me manually operated. An interesting market has developed for robot parts. Take a look at the stuff they have at servocity.com. Robotshop.com has cool stuff too. There are a lot of really cool parts available. I'm thinking about one of their liner actuators to operate a drawbridge at the entry to my layout room. Besides, aren't Model Railroaders all MacGyver wanna be's anyway?
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
A couple of questions
1. Is this HO scale? I could not find a reference the scale in your post but may have missed it.
1a. If so have you tested your 2-10-0 on 22" radius curves? I have found that the minimum radius listed is not always accurate.
I would definitely consider a runaround track on each level for the elevator. Also you may want to consider some sort switch that cuts off power to the elevator access track if the elevator is not inplace. What type of turnout throws were you planning on using?
It's been a while since I checked this thread - sorry for the slow response.
Thanks for all the great comments on the train elevator! I think I will make it with several tracks for additional staging and to allow use of the elevator when the main track is aligned with another level. I took a look at those sites you suggested - lots of great stuff! A motor/gearbox assembly with a pulley would be perfect for the train elevator, and since I plan to have a counterweight, I could use one of the cheap Tamiya gearboxes.
Yeah, this plan is HO scale. Sorry I forgot to mention it with the track plan.
I have my Penn Line engines disassembled for fine-tuning and DCC installation at the moment, but the I1sa 2-10-0 can run fine around an 18" radius curve - it helps that it has 6 blind drivers. My current project is drilling out the brass headlight casting and installing a LED headlight.
Thanks for the tip about the turnouts. I was planning to use Atlas turnouts (or ones handlaid to Atlas dimensions) and then have some small DPDT switches on the elevator leads to kill power to the tracks. The mechanics and wiring may be a little tricky, but it should work reliably (definitely going to do a lot of testing before I operate trains!) I believe that Peco turnouts are power-routing, but I haven't heard much about them.
I haven't given much though to turnout throws yet. I was planning on using modified RC servos as show in MR for the inaccessible turnouts, and probably Caboose Industries ground throws for the easily accessible ones. If I were to use them, I would get the ones that are sprung, since the model railroad club I belong to has had problems with the handles popping out of the unsprung ones.
I was thinking about handlaying all the turnouts so that I can have powered frogs and better electrical performance - any thoughts?
Peco turnouts work really well, so well infact that my club's module standards limit me to PECO or Micro Engineering, Shinohara too possibly. Peco Electo frog turnouts still need the frog isolated so you dont have a short circuit. The frog is then powered from the motor(we use tortoise). For manual throw turnouts we use insulfrog turnouts with the common rails soldered on the back with a piece of copper wire (this eliminates reliance on the points for electricalpower). The copper wires connect the same side rails at the 4.5in mark on the SL-95,96 turnouts for example. This also applies to the electofrog turnout, but a second cut needs to be made on the points side of the frog in addition to the divergent side.
Alternative suggestion: Build the layout in two levels, with a more traditional method of getting from lvel 1 to level 2. Obviously this requires more room. But you have it - perhaps. You'll have a lot of unused space UNDER the layout where you could put shelves and replace some of those shelving units eating up all thebasement space. Alternative storage, in case you have any dampness issues, are those big plastic tubs. A conventional height (not sitting to operate) lower level would allow 3 high stacks of those tubs underneath. 24" wide benchwork allows them to fit in witht he narrow side against the back wall, put labels on everything. You can fit a LOT of stuff in storage in a 20+ foot row of those tubs stacked 3 high, and with labels on each one, it's easy to slide out and find what you need. If the situation is anything like it was at my old place, you can probbaly expand the layout around that whole basement are and end up with MORE storage room than the shelf units.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.