Spent today demolishing layout #2 (8' X 18'), shaped like the letter J, two years worth of work. I think I have finally overcome the irresistible desire to lay grand expanses of trackwork , and pass it off as a reasonable operating model railroad. My interests have shifted to more and much better scenery and less track. My first two layout efforts were built using open-grid benchwork, with the resultant hassles when it came time to add significant uneven terrain in the foreground. My imagination and attempts at planning what the contours of this terrain would look like in my mind's eye just don't translate well when I try to build the face of the benchwork. L girder benchwork seems so massive in appearance, but maybe is a better option for versatility at the fascia edge. My new plan is a shelf design, shaped like the letter L, with a turnback loop at the top of the L, using the same 8' X 18' of wall space as before. How do you modelers who have achieved such striking rugged terrain do it?
Wilton.
Oregon:
I use sheet insulation, closed cell. It comes in blue or pink. One inch thick allows you to cut a hill along contour lines. Glue it with no more nails, yellow carpenter's glue, etc. No solvents. Then shape with a bread knife and or a rasp, I have even used a handsaw. Paint and cover with ground foam and trees plant easily.
Instead of painting cover with hydracal and then add rock castings and follow with any colouring system you like.
Dave Murray
Hi Oregon shay
First off they use some form of open bench work there is more than one way to do this.
This allows the scenery to go above and below track height.
The next thing they do is to put a lot more forethought and thought and planning into the scenery
and other things than most of us do.
Some particularly the venerated grand masters of the hobby even as much as ten years in front as to where everything was going so as not to adversely affect the finished result
Even though plans change from time to time or are revised because something did not work the kind of planning that gets the results is quite a lot.
Only very very few of us can get the results on the run.
regards John
I go along with Dave, use foam insulation, except I would recommend 2" as it gives you about a scale 14.5' below grade if you want, before you get to your framework. It is strong enough to be placed on 2' centers, if you are doing a shelf. If you want to go deeper, just cut away some and glue pieces underneath to the desired depth. Plan where you want a deep cut and put a support each side, leaving room to attach some foam below. At the edge you can cut down a little or build up by adding another layer of foam, then cut your fascia to follow the contour.
I use inexpensive latex caulk for an adhesive. It gives you some time to adjust, if needed, but holds well even before it sets up.
Good luck,
Richard
I use open grid and place the roadbed on risers just about everywhere, so I leave myself space to build scenery above and below the track. I also have the general scenery design complete before I build any benchwork, which gives me some direction with regard to how the layout has to be built to accommodate the scenes.
Here's a look at some roadbed that will eventually place the track part way up a hill that will slope down to the foreground. The hill will rise up behind the track, so there was no need to cut the roadbed away back there.
This is the completed scene.
Basic benchwork looked like this. I allowed space for scenery to go up or down between the track and fascia. It may be a plain grid, but still provides for flowing scenery and fascia treatments.
This is the same location with fascia added. Now there's someplace to attach scenery material at the front and back.
And now the same aisle with a scenery shell added.
Rob Spangler
Wilton,
Please include,the width,desired,for your plan,of the shelf layout..
Cheers,
Frank
"How do you modelers who have achieved such striking rugged terrain do it?"
I make my mountains and terrain using just two methods.
1. I use latex moulds of various rock formations, with piecing each piece together, trying to form some image of a mountain.
2. I also use just plain Plaster cloth. Its not easy.. not hard either. I try to see it as fun and relaxing.
Here is one pic of a mountain / terrain using both. Some pieces are made from latex moulds, other parts are made from using plaster cloth.
The mountain in the back ground was made entirely of plaster cloth.
For one of those "signature scenes" on the front edge of my layout, I used Bragdon foam:
There's a bit of a learning curve to using this stuff, but it's really not that hard. Their web site, www.bragdonent.com, is very helpful, and they'll answer e-mail questions quickly. Bragdon produces both the foam and a wide variety of latex molds. The molds have a lot of fine detail, and the foam brings them out well, and also takes coloring so you can get the effect you're looking for.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Thanks to all who responded to my post. The descriptions and photographs are appreciated and very helpful for aiding me in visualizing design elements. Frank, I plan to utilize a shelf of 2 to 2 1/2 feet wide, increasing to 5 1/2 feet for the turnback loop (with access on 3 sides, and an access opening in the center), at the top of the L. This should provide ease of reach for me to work on the layout. I plan to support the layout with 2" X 2" legs. I don't have an application on this PC to display the track plan - I use graph paper, a compass, and a straightedge. After the plan is a bit more refined, I can take a digital picture of it, and post that. Looking at the examples in your posts, I think the main part of my problems with incorporating the terrain have to do with my benchwork design. Specifically, it's occurred to me that a lower height benchwork with risers would give me the room and versatility to build significant height and depressed terrain without the roadbed sub-structure getting in the way.
Not sure why you are having problems getting good terrain with open grid benchwork, unless maybe your risers were not set high enough. If you notice all of the examples the guys have posted have the risers set at least several inches high even at the lowest planned track level. That gives you the versatility to raise or lower the landscape around the track as you wish without cutting into the benchwork.
Foam, plaster cloth, plaster molds- lots of ways to go from there. I am using a lot of foam this time and will fit the front facia panels to the rolling edge level once I am satisfied with the terrain. If using plaster cloth then the front facia needs to go on first so there is a place to attach the plaster cloth. Lots of ways to skin the cat, but the key is not to build yourself into a corner with the main supporting structure whether its open grid, L-beam, or whatever.
Huntington Junction - Freelance based on the B&O and C&O in coal country before the merger... doing it my way. Now working on phase 3. - Walt
For photos and more: http://www.wkhobbies.com/model-railroad/
I use cut-out 1/2" plywood shapes, sort of like aircraft wing and fuselage cross-section bulkheads over which the outer fuselage sheet metal goes in the old ways of building aircraft. I support these on edge, sort of like ribs, and hot glue aluminium window screening cut to shape onto these 'ribs'.
Over the window screening I spread a slurry (don't dally, it will set up very soon) whose recipe was offered here several years ago by Joe Fugate. Three parts plaster of paris, one part Portland Cement, and four parts finely ground vermiculite. I also use powdered mansonary dye to give it colour ("brown", which looks quite dark, and 'mesa', a yellowish ochre colour).
The time to spread ground foam over it is while it is still damp. Otherwise you must spray water first before spraying the glue binder for the ground foam because the cement/plaster will soak up all your glue!!!
What it looks like with the freshly troweled dyed goop over the screen.
What it looks like today, with the rockface carving and staining, plus some first applications of ground foam.
Scene from my previous layout
Okay, kidding, that's the view from my back yard....honestly.
Crandell,
Thanks for the text and series of photos showing the progression of your scenic work - very impressive, and helpful.
Walt,
I believe you are absolutely right - my technique failed due to short risers. My other failure was to not adequately plan ahead of time the design and shape of the leading (fascia) edge of my benchwork to accommodate the elevation loss of the foreground terrain. Doing the design work without the input of others sometimes puts me in an "intellectual vacuum".
oregon shay L girder benchwork seems so massive in appearance, but maybe is a better option for versatility at the fascia edge.
Being versatile is the answer. Build the benchwork to fit the scene, not the other way round.
Here I wanted a very deep canyon for my favourite RR bridge. So why not go to the floor?
</p><p><a href="/mrr/f/11/t/220681/reply.aspx/"></a></p>">">"> I will cut out the spline when it comes time to fit in the bridge. Use as many methods as you like to accomplish the end result. They all have pros and cons for each situation. Here I used foam and old sheets and tea towels dipped in Plaster Of Paris over cardboard weave. "> After "> To deal with the problem of keeping my grades at or below 2%, I made the bench on the right a little higher than the rest of the benchwork. This solved a lot of problems for me. "> As a kid, I remember going with my Dad to help on some of his friends layouts. The ones that really stood out were the ones where they took full advantage of the floor to ceiling vertical space. This was done by building the benchwork in an "as required" method, instead of the usual L Girder or other singular method. Think outside the box in everything you do and don't be afraid to take a risk. The worst that can happen is you have to rip it out and start over. Many of us have done that. It's called being creative and creating is what draws us to this hobby. Good luck.
I will cut out the spline when it comes time to fit in the bridge.
Use as many methods as you like to accomplish the end result. They all have pros and cons for each situation.
Here I used foam and old sheets and tea towels dipped in Plaster Of Paris over cardboard weave.
"> After "> To deal with the problem of keeping my grades at or below 2%, I made the bench on the right a little higher than the rest of the benchwork. This solved a lot of problems for me. "> As a kid, I remember going with my Dad to help on some of his friends layouts. The ones that really stood out were the ones where they took full advantage of the floor to ceiling vertical space. This was done by building the benchwork in an "as required" method, instead of the usual L Girder or other singular method. Think outside the box in everything you do and don't be afraid to take a risk. The worst that can happen is you have to rip it out and start over. Many of us have done that. It's called being creative and creating is what draws us to this hobby. Good luck.
After
"> To deal with the problem of keeping my grades at or below 2%, I made the bench on the right a little higher than the rest of the benchwork. This solved a lot of problems for me. "> As a kid, I remember going with my Dad to help on some of his friends layouts. The ones that really stood out were the ones where they took full advantage of the floor to ceiling vertical space. This was done by building the benchwork in an "as required" method, instead of the usual L Girder or other singular method. Think outside the box in everything you do and don't be afraid to take a risk. The worst that can happen is you have to rip it out and start over. Many of us have done that. It's called being creative and creating is what draws us to this hobby. Good luck.
To deal with the problem of keeping my grades at or below 2%, I made the bench on the right a little higher than the rest of the benchwork. This solved a lot of problems for me.
"> As a kid, I remember going with my Dad to help on some of his friends layouts. The ones that really stood out were the ones where they took full advantage of the floor to ceiling vertical space. This was done by building the benchwork in an "as required" method, instead of the usual L Girder or other singular method. Think outside the box in everything you do and don't be afraid to take a risk. The worst that can happen is you have to rip it out and start over. Many of us have done that. It's called being creative and creating is what draws us to this hobby. Good luck.
As a kid, I remember going with my Dad to help on some of his friends layouts. The ones that really stood out were the ones where they took full advantage of the floor to ceiling vertical space. This was done by building the benchwork in an "as required" method, instead of the usual L Girder or other singular method.
Think outside the box in everything you do and don't be afraid to take a risk. The worst that can happen is you have to rip it out and start over. Many of us have done that. It's called being creative and creating is what draws us to this hobby.
Good luck.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Thanks for the added info,,makes things clearer,,when you mentioned shelf layout,everyone was showing around the walls layouts,,to me a shelf layout is just that, it's fixed to the wall,as in book shelf and would have to be made with rather light materials,to keep the weight down..Thereby using a lot of foam products..
My methods are similar to most here, but the mix may be a bit different. I use standard L-girder support. I usually use 1x2 for the "joists/rafters" that go across the top of L-girder. I attach my risers for the subroadbed to those in most cases. So about every 12" to 16" there is crosspiece, usually with at least one riser. That's all pretty standard, I guess.
Then I use extruded foam. I used to just stack and glue it to the L-girder supports. Now I've switched over so about 85% of the layout area is made up of liftouts.In many cases, these sit right on the crosspieces. In others, I make raised crosspieces, as there's no point in just stacking up layers of foam to get to visible track level.
The point is to get a level resting place for your first slab of foam. I usually try to make this one from 2" thick foam. I cut it carefully to meet the edges of the subroadbed and design. Once it drops into place and is level, it becomes the base for the rest of what's on top. You can work on it installed on the layout or take it outside for messy tasks.
I use foamboard adhesive and bamboo skewers when attaching additional layers, by cutting and stacking them. I try to make mountain so the lower slopes seem like they're close by, while making the peaks seem farawway. It's a sort of perspective thing. I'm not an artist, just know how to do it. Once the glue has set, then things can be carved more closely. I use an old serrated bread knife that's about 18" long -- "OUCH! Watch it, you'll put someone's eye out!" -- to carve the terrain for more detail.
Next I cover the thing in Sculptamold or at least the visible parts. I can embed plaster rock castings in it when wet and it holds trees well when dry. It also takes colors well. Note that Sculptamold and plaster absorb any stain or rye differently. So I treat the Sculptamold like "dirt" and the plaster rock castings like rock when I mix the two mediums to get a consistent look.
Anyway, here's a pic of a small piece of scenery. Everything that is pink is below track level. You can't see the marked line where I used a Sharpy to show what was about subroadbed level and was visible. I slapped on the Sculptamold down to that level . You can see the cuts in the foam to fit around obstructions and sit level.
To get that nice edge and tight fit against the subroadbed, I lay down plastic wrap, then apply Sculptamold on top of the plastic wrap. This builds the clean edge and fills that pesky gap you sometimes get next to the roadbed. Let is set, then peel off the plastic - custom molded!
Here's a three step sequence showing the biggest liftout on the Cascade Branch.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/219241.aspx?sort=ASC&pi314=1
It's more than 6 feet long.
Note the sawtooth edge mountains at the back. I use this trick a lot now, but it's natural for being in the mountains. I don't apply Sculptamold, just carve/cut and stand it up attached at the back of the liftout's main mountains. It's painted dark. The process adds some depth to things. and is sooo easy.
Here's a few pics of my quarry, which is in multiple pieces that stack.
A liftout, with sawtooth, on the other side of the wye from the quarry. Another long liftout, with more sawtooth! Then that one on the quarry ones intersect in this finished scene, which still easily disassemble. This is easy stuff to work with. I use kinves to cut it to avoid fumes with hot knives, but others report success. Whatever works. If you mess it up, just make another, re-use the scrap.
A liftout, with sawtooth, on the other side of the wye from the quarry.
Another long liftout, with more sawtooth! Then that one on the quarry ones intersect in this finished scene, which still easily disassemble. This is easy stuff to work with. I use kinves to cut it to avoid fumes with hot knives, but others report success. Whatever works. If you mess it up, just make another, re-use the scrap.
Another long liftout, with more sawtooth!
Then that one on the quarry ones intersect in this finished scene, which still easily disassemble. This is easy stuff to work with. I use kinves to cut it to avoid fumes with hot knives, but others report success. Whatever works. If you mess it up, just make another, re-use the scrap.
Then that one on the quarry ones intersect in this finished scene, which still easily disassemble.
This is easy stuff to work with. I use kinves to cut it to avoid fumes with hot knives, but others report success. Whatever works. If you mess it up, just make another, re-use the scrap.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Caveat - I am modeling an area where the world stands on edge. You can cut out five hectares, flatten it out, iron it, sell ten hectares and still have a nice building lot for your own house.
The most basic requirement is - design the terrain FIRST. Then adapt the benchwork to suit. L-girder construction, with its overhanging (and easily repositioned) joist ends, is much more flexible than box frame construction with a solid header at the fascia line.
Another key - raise everything (except, possibly, hidden track) ABOVE the joist (and box frame header) level. That gives wiggle room below track level for ordinary terrain features like streams and low spots.
When modeling vertical terrain, a horizontal table top is NOT a good starting spot - especially if most of your connecting track is on grades and no two stations are at the same level (above mean seal level - your floor, like mine, may be sloped for drainage.) Some kind of cookie cut subgrade is my choice for supporting track and rail-related buildings. Leaving plenty of overhang on the uphill side gives a place to anchor scenic elements. You might have to get creative below track level, but scenic elememts don't require the precision found in things with small moving parts.
As for exactly how to create landforms - there are as many different ways to do that as there are modelers who have scenery. My experience with hard shell has been good - but I'm still open to new ideas. I seriously doubt that there's one best way for everyone.
Chuck (Modeling mountainous Central Japan in September, 1964)
Frank,
I used the wrong word when I described my next plan as a shelf-type, as I don't want to attempt the engineering work involved in hanging it from the walls. Not that it wouldn't work or look cool and clean. The remarks about lightweight techniques are appreciated.
Brent and Mike,
Thanks for the tips, and photo examples of your work. From all the responses I've received, I can see that I haven't even begun to scratch the surface of creative possibilities.
Thanks to all for sharing your talent.
Hi all
Seeing Mlehman's sawtooth mountains has reminded me of something I saw on a war-games web site.
where a similar thing was done for mountainous terrain in a confined table top battle space.
What they did was to cut the back range then a couple of layers to go in front of it.
These layers were glued together with spacers between them for the firing steps and suitably painted and finished.
It strikes me that a similar set up with thinner spacers could be used to possibly give even greater background depth for a model railroad.
Chuck,
Thanks for your comments on my problems integrating terrain with benchwork. It is so logical and obvious that I overlooked it on my first two builds -- design the terrain first. I have always enjoyed deciding where the mountains and rivers would be, creating the lay of the land. I just kept forgetting to do it before the benchwork limited my options. As part of my planning for the next build, I found a topographical map online of the route of the Oregon, Pacific, and Eastern Railway, in central Oregon. Studying the line the surveyors laid through the hills and around Dorena Lake gave me an added appreciation of how terrain should help decide the design of my build. It was a real eye opener, and should make this next build more fun.
Again, thanks to all who have contributed ideas and examples of terrain techniques that you have developed.