Anything above 3 % is not recommendable.
Sir Madog Anything above 3 % is not recommendable.
One nice thing about using Woodland Scenics foam risers is you can use them to raise and lower the track. So to achieve a 4" separation you can have one line go up 2", and the other line go down 2". That takes up a lot less space than having one track remain level and another track climb up and over it.
Interesting discussion to say the least.
You won't mind an old timer chiming here...would you?
2% is the maximum grade I've choosen for most of my recent layouts. Oh, I've tried the tight radius curves (another issue) and those 2.5%, 3.0% and a 4% grades but I couldn't get any trains of any significance up those grades. The original HO and N scale " Stoves" aka steam engines, have proven to be the worst pullers...working best on flat layouts. No fun in that. Today's recent offerings do a tad bit better.
Bottom line...I'd stay with the 2%. Exception being if I'ma modeling a shortline narrow gauge with steeper grades. However, finding a locomotive that will pull three or four cars up anything steeper will take some doing.
I hate to see newbies helping other newbies make the same mistakes. If know what I mean.
RickH
BarstowRick.com Model Railroading How To's
The transition areas are key. Going upgrade with a curve is a lot more work. So for modeling using diesels and just tangent track with good transition areas, I have seen 6% to 10% or so work ok for the max middle part of the grade. So, this gives an average grade of about 3% to 5%. Steamers really don't like much over 2.5% since they're so light. Also, rolling stock that easily moves is important the more grade you have.
For a helix, I would really prefer a 2% max grade to have a good running railroad. You need enough separation in a helix from turn to turn to accomodate your rolling stock height. So for a helix you need to balance the rolling stock height, vertical separation of curves, grade and curve radii.
Richard
Prototype logging railroads used geared steam to climb grades of 6% and higher. Some here (I can't remember who at the moment, hope you'll forgive me) have built logging-themed layouts with 8% grades. Mind you, these are specialty engines pulling trains of no more than 6-8 cars; running these grades with rod steamers or standard diesels would likely be a slippery and frustrating exercise.
Stu
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
Train ModelerI have seen 6% to 10% or so work ok for the max middle part of the grade
Based on experience, strongly disagree.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
hi gentlemen,
John Armstrong stated grades from 4% and more will become an attraction by itself, like doubling the hill, helper service or stalled trains.
Trainlength will be important, however what do you want? For longer trains without helpers your grades might be no steeper then 2%. No engine is alike, some have traction tires, so your question can't be properly answered.
Keep in mind lots of space is needed for vertical easements. Even more when you allow for space without a change of grade just before or after a turnout.
Curves add friction too, the combination of a grade on a curve can cause derailments and surely will limit trainlength quite a lot.
Smile
Paul
Train Modeler ... Steamers really don't like much over 2.5% since they're so light. ...Richard
... Steamers really don't like much over 2.5% since they're so light.
...Richard
Richard, I don't agree with your statement quoted above. It isn't that steamers are so light, it is that their weight is distributed in some cases over trucks that offer no help to the tractive effort, unless those trucks happen(ed) to have a booster engine on them in the prototype.
Many steamers were much heavier than any diesel existing today, but many diesels can pull more tonnage at a low speed on a grade, and lift that tonnage from speed 'zero', where any steamer used in N. America could not lift that tonnage. Where diesels carry all their weight over tires that are on driven axles (in most cases), the only steamers that carried all their weight on drivers were the switchers with no trucks on them like the 0-6-0 or 0-8-0 or the 0-10-0 configuration. Those engines were used nearly exclusively in switching service. If the builders needed even a single non-coupled axle under their steamers for weight-bearing or steering control, then part of the suspended weight above the wheels was supported by axles that didn't contribute to the tractive effort.
In summary, diesels carry more weight on wheels that are driven, so their tractive effort pound for pound is higher, where many steamers had drivers bearing less of their weight and would slip badly trying to lift heavy tonnages or they would stall on hills that a modern diesel could still manage, albeit at a slow speed.
Crandell
Rastafarr Prototype logging railroads used geared steam to climb grades of 6% and higher. Some here (I can't remember who at the moment, hope you'll forgive me) have built logging-themed layouts with 8% grades. Mind you, these are specialty engines pulling trains of no more than 6-8 cars; running these grades with rod steamers or standard diesels would likely be a slippery and frustrating exercise. Stu
My logging/coal route contains two 8% grades, both on 18" radius curves, handled by a Spectrum Shay. I don't have enough cars for it, but it has done two skeleton log cars, two 55 ton hoppers, and a bobber caboose well. However, my Shay has been plagued by the cracking and missing driver gears mentioned in other posts, and I have not changed them yet to higher quality replacements.
For what all that's worth, who knows, but that's what happens on this particular, as of yet unnamed, railroad!
Duane
selector Train Modeler ... Steamers really don't like much over 2.5% since they're so light. ...Richard Richard, I don't agree with your statement quoted above. It isn't that steamers are so light, it is that their weight is distributed in some cases over trucks that offer no help to the tractive effort, unless those trucks happen(ed) to have a booster engine on them in the prototype. Many steamers were much heavier than any diesel existing today, but many diesels can pull more tonnage at a low speed on a grade, and lift that tonnage from speed 'zero', where any steamer used in N. America could not lift that tonnage. Where diesels carry all their weight over tires that are on driven axles (in most cases), the only steamers that carried all their weight on drivers were the switchers with no trucks on them like the 0-6-0 or 0-8-0 or the 0-10-0 configuration. Those engines were used nearly exclusively in switching service. If the builders needed even a single non-coupled axle under their steamers for weight-bearing or steering control, then part of the suspended weight above the wheels was supported by axles that didn't contribute to the tractive effort. In summary, diesels carry more weight on wheels that are driven, so their tractive effort pound for pound is higher, where many steamers had drivers bearing less of their weight and would slip badly trying to lift heavy tonnages or they would stall on hills that a modern diesel could still manage, albeit at a slow speed. Crandell
Crandell,
I am speaking of models where due to various factors such as wanting visible/accurate clearance between the boiler and trucks. For example, this similar area/clearance in a model diesel can be filled with weight.
cuyama Train ModelerI have seen 6% to 10% or so work ok for the max middle part of the grade Based on experience, strongly disagree.
This area for modeling really needs to take a lot of things into account. For example if the max grade were 10% for 30 feet and I'm running 50' of properly weighted hard to roll cars, then many problems will occur.
Since most of us are normally trying to gain 4" or so, then I could be speaking of about a 6' or less section out of 17' for a 2% nominal grade. After having built several layouts, the point being--%grades can(and do for prototypes) vary quite a bit to make up an overall average grade. I believe the steepest portion on the Saluda grade(NS-class 1)in NC is 6%. You can have more trouble pulling a long train of long heavy weight passenger cars up a 2% grade with 22" radius curvature with a lightweight steamer than a diesel pulling 6 short coal hoppers up a tangent track with 4% grade.
singletrack100 Rastafarr Prototype logging railroads used geared steam to climb grades of 6% and higher. Some here (I can't remember who at the moment, hope you'll forgive me) have built logging-themed layouts with 8% grades. Mind you, these are specialty engines pulling trains of no more than 6-8 cars; running these grades with rod steamers or standard diesels would likely be a slippery and frustrating exercise. Stu My mainline has approximately 8' of level track, followed by about 18' in which it climbs approximately 6", then back down approximately 18' again to the level. Both runs turn twice in their run on 22" radius curves.I figured this to be approximately 3+%? My Athearn Genesis 4-6-6-4 stock (with factory traction tires)is currently lashed up to 20 cars and caboose and pulls well. I have a Bachmann 2-8-0 stock, no traction tires, that will handle about a dozen reefers and caboose. My Bachmann 4-8-4 required an additional 5 1/2 ounces of weight to handle the reefer train, and will at times still slip a bit in one particular spot (though hard on the model loco, I think it adds a bit of realism). My logging/coal route contains two 8% grades, both on 18" radius curves, handled by a Spectrum Shay. I don't have enough cars for it, but it has done two skeleton log cars, two 55 ton hoppers, and a bobber caboose well. However, my Shay has been plagued by the cracking and missing driver gears mentioned in other posts, and I have not changed them yet to higher quality replacements. For what all that's worth, who knows, but that's what happens on this particular, as of yet unnamed, railroad! Duane
Assuming you are running a "regular" RR - not a narrow gauge and/or logging or mining RR - TWO percent is the maximum I would use. My previous layout used 2 percent to access lower level staging, and it worked out pretty good. For my new layout, I experimented and again came to the conclusion that 2 percent was best.
Even at two percent, it takes two good locos to pull up a decent sized (15-25) car train. That works for my needs. At 2 1/2 percent, three locos struggle with the same train.
Of course if your train size is smaller, then 2 1/2 is not such a big deal. And while there are a couple of instances of mainline grades of that size out in the real world, they are few and far between and helper locos are a must.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Train ModelerI believe the steepest portion on the Saluda grade(NS-class 1)in NC is 6%.
Not correct. It was nominally a maximum of 4.7%, with a very short stretch that was rumored to be as high as 5%. In any case, that was the extreme exception and most of the grade was compensated in the curves. Because of the many operating challenges of this grade, it's been abandoned for a decade or so.
I've never seen the 10% grade you recommended earlier work reliably on a model railroad. Why give the newcomers bad advice?
Especially in the model situation, many grades are on curves and the added friction creates a much steeper effective grade.
cuyama I've never seen the 10% grade you recommended earlier work reliably on a model railroad. Why give the newcomers bad advice? Especially in the model situation, many grades are on curves and the added friction creates a much steeper effective grade.
Like most modellers, my around-the-room layout has many curves, and because it was built with the intention of eventually double-decking part of it, the grades are mostly around 2.5%. (the area in grey will eventually be covered by a second level, the access to which will be from South Cayuga around the peninsula.
Because most of the grades occur on curves, with some of them being reverse curves, the effect of the grade is increased. The table below shows this effect. (I don't recall where I found this information, but if anyone can point me to its source, I'll gladly include the proper accreditation.)
_________________________________________________________________________________
To calculate the effect of curvature upon grades, add 0.05% for every degree of curvature to the actual physical grade already present.For example, a 33” radius is approximately equal to a 25 degree curve. 25x0.05% =1.25% would be the compensation required for the curve and would be added to the actual grade. A 2.5% grade on a 33” radius curve would therefore be equal to a 3.75% grade on straight track.Below are approximate equivalents, in degrees, for the given radii. Using 33”=25.1 degrees* as the starting point, reduce or increase respectively the number of degrees by 0.76 as the radius increases or decreases. NOTE: The further away a radius is from the known 33” radius, the greater the inaccuracy of the table.To calculate the percentage of compensation to be added to the physical (actual) grade, multiply number of degrees by .05. (* represents known value - all others are unverified assumptions)RADIUS24” - 32.0 degrees - percentage of compensation to be added - 1.60% 25” - 31.2 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 1.56%26” - 30.4 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 1.52%27” - 29.7 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 1.49%28” - 28.9 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 1.45%29” - 28.2 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 1.41%30” - 27.4 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 1.37%30” - 27.4 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 1.37%31” - 26.6 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 1.33%32” - 25.9 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 1.30%33” - 25.1 degrees* - 1.25%*34” - 24.3 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 1.22%35” - 23.6 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 1.18%36” - 22.8 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 1.14%37” - 22.1 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 1.11%38” - 21.3 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 1.07%39” - 20.5 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 1.03%40” - 19.8 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 0.99%41” - 19.0 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 0.95%42” - 18.3 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 0.92%43” - 17.5 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 0.88%44” - 16.7 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 0.84%45” - 16.0 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 0.80%46” - 15.2 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 0.76%47” - 14.5 degrees ---------------------------------------------------- 0.73% _________________________________________________________________________________
When a long train climbs the hill from Elfrida to South Cayuga (a direct curve right, short straight, then curve left, through the base of the peninsula) the 2.5% grade is compounded by those curves, and once the train has entered the second 34" radius curve, the effective grade on a long train, according to the table, is 5.94%. There's approximately 250' (HO) between the two curves, roughly six 40' cars, so any train over that length encounters a grade the equivalent of 5.94% for a portion of the trip. I just now ran a nine car train up that grade with little or no wheelslip from the modified Bachmann Consolidation pulling it. For longer trains ("normal" train length is up to about 16 cars, depending on the available traffic) doubleheading is the usual practice, and most of my locos, regardless of make or type, run acceptably-well together (DC operation).For smaller locos, doubleheading is also the usual practice, with train lengths commensurately shorter.
On the climb to the second level, the requirements are similar, with all but 9' (7' at about the 1/3 point, and 2' over part of a bridge near the summit) on curves of varying radii, all 34" or larger. Total length of the grade is about 45', all at 2.5% (uncompensated) except for a very short stretch at 2.8%. Very little goes up this hill not doubleheaded, and pushers are used when necessary.
Here's an older view of South Cayuga, with the high bridge in the background representing part of the grade to the second level, and the descending bridge leading to Elfrida, beyond the base of the peninsula:
The short stretch of 2.8% extends from the knoll between the tracks to the beginning of the bridge. It was unintentional, but provides a good indicator if a train will be able to conquer the entire hill - when the locos reach this point, most of their train is still on level track, and experience has shown that trains requiring manually-assistance past this point (the big 0-5-0 helper ) will later fail before reaching the summit.
Juxtaposing the two lines at this point emphasises the grades of both, and it's my hope that the liberal use of large trees will lessen the effect.
Here's an overall view from the end of the peninsula, with the 7' straightaway seen at left and the 2' straight section on the high bridge in the centre-distance. The first "S" curve is just before that bridge, with the second just past it. There are no "straights" within either "S", and the straight on the bridge was a concession to the bridge design, not to operation through these curves, which is flawless.
Whether you need grades to accommodate operations or simply for scenic effect, I see no reason to not use them. If they appear excessive, skillful scenic work can mitigate the visual effect, and if the grades limit train lengths, it's a good excuse to "need" more locomotives.
Wayne
What kind of railroad does have a huge effect on whats acceptable for grades, and in some cases which prototype you follow does as well.
In my case I'm actually planning a couple long (2 or 3 train lengths) 4% grades to trabnsition from one level to the next. Many short grades (one train length) will be near 3% but most others will be 2% or less. Most trains will be 10-12 cars with a couple 4 axle diesels on the point. But I'll also be running some ore and coal drags of about 30 hoppers. The drags will be powered by a couple C628's and an extra 4 axle on the point, my 4% grades are helper districts so another loco or 2 as pushers.
In my case it's agreat excuse to run more locos, yes it can be pricy but it's what I want. And it's also quite prototypical for my plan. Real railroads did this kind of stuff all the time, if you can't conqure the grade add more power or run shorter trains.
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
LION METHOD: Trial and Error... (mostly error) You can learn from others or you can make the same mistakes for your self.
First and most obvious is that the LION started with a three deck shelf layout along the "Back 40" about 47 feet of linear table on 2 and 1/3 Walls. Levels are about 12-16" apart so that I can work on each level.
There are two island tables (East Island Table is 5'x18' and the West Island table is about 6'x22') Clearly the changes in elevation had to occur on these Island tables.
On my first attempt I tried to use the West Island Table to connect the railroad to either the upper level or to the lower level in a single loop of the table. Figure a rise of 12+" in a distance of not more than 50 feet. I do not know what the grade was, but my locomotives seemed to be able to deal with it even with 6 car passenger trains in tow. One might say that it worked. Well except for the two station platforms that wanted to be almost level and were 4' long each.
When I got rid of the locomotives and bought subway cars I found that these could not make the grades at all. No logical reason why, they just could not. So the LION pulled out the tracks and made a 1.5 loop up and a 1.5 loop down which gives me a nice layout with even more stations along the route, and the subway trains can make the grades. (Well with the help of some Bullfrog Snot).
On the East Loop table, I had a base line that was already 5" above the lower level, that elevation being attained on part of the back 40 and on the curve coming into the front of the table, which left me with a 9" climb and 1/2 turn to do it in. That got pulled out and a two track helix of 1.5 turns was installed. The helix was about 52" in diameter and it worked well enough. Except of course that I pulled it out to replace it with a 60" x 4 track helix, and that does work GREAT.
LION does not know what the grades are. Him cares not: The trains go up and down and round and round, and the LION says to himself "SELF, YOU DONE GOOD".
Subway trains are supposed to make grades much greater than on other properties. And they indeed do, but that is with 4 motors on each car. If LION would have six motor cars on every train, then grades would be no problem whatsoever. But the LION uses 6 car trains, which come in four car sets, so half of the trains have two power cars while the other half have only one.
It works. It runs. The LION does not worry about anything else.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS