Morning all...
Been a long time sence I last posted on here with. Have not had much time to give to model railroading. Wife, child, life in general...
but, now I am working on a new plan. I am taking the MRR plan for the Virginian that was model railroader at the start of 2012 and building it as a N scale but still on a 4X8 plan. Will post a plan later, but, I need some ideas on how to turn a train around at the end of the branch. PLaning on using steam so I would like to be able to turn them around for the trip down grade.
SO, ideas?
rtprimus Will post a plan later, but, I need some ideas on how to turn a train around at the end of the branch.
In real life on many branches, steam engines simply ran around their trains and then ran in reverse for the return -- especially on lightly used branches.
If there were turning facilities at the end of a branch, wyes were probably most common because they required much less maintenance than a turntable and less area than a balloon track. Turntables are space-saving for the model, but were not nearly as widely used at the ends of prototype branches as they seem to be on model branches.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
On two excursions on which I have been in the past five years, the steam locomotive uncoupled from the front of the consist and ran around to the 'other front' for the reverse trip. In one case, that was a 90 km trip, or about 50 miles, of running tender-first. Lucky, too, because we broadsided a large hay wagon out in the boonies. Buddy actually slowed to a crawl at the angled crossing going uphill, and to our horror accelerated slightly and continued to cross in front of us, about 50 yards away. The whistle went from a steady whoot to a louder and shriller whooeeeeeeeeee to no avail. Suuuh-LAM!.
The tender suffered a partially detached stirrup and some popped and leaking rivets. The locomotive was just fine. Farmer ran on adrenaline for the next three days.
Crandell
Crandell, that is classic !
Rich
Alton Junction
Thanks for the ideas and tips... Will try and get more work done on my plan and work out this branch line then post what I got for some more tips and reviews.
later
Although there certainly were many branchlines in the steam era where the engine ran backwards on part of the run, it also wasn't uncommon for the end of the branch to have a manual "armstrong" turntable that was just large enough to turn the steam engine around on. In N scale, I'd think it would be pretty easy to fin a turntable in if you choose to do that.
Many first-generation road switcher diesels were bought specifically for use on branch lines, so the railroad could eliminate the turntable.
The prototype VGN, N&W, C&O etc. either backed up the branch or backed out. No room in those West Virginia hollows for a turntable, never mind a wye capable of turning a Y...
At the same time, half a world away, a C11 class 2-6-4T would leave Yoshizuka (in Fukuoka, Japan) for Katsuda bunker first with a mixed train. At Katsuda it would leave the passenger cars at the platform, switch the freight, then couple up and return to Yoshizuka smokebox forward. (If there was no freight to handle that schedule was protected by a DMU set.)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
wjstixIn N scale, I'd think it would be pretty easy to fin a turntable in if you choose to do that.
Why eat up the space on a item the railroads wasn't interested in on branchlines after all those turntables cost money to maintain and on a marginal branchline that may not be a option to repair and the TT could become out of service.PRR refused to repair a bridge on a urban industrial branch because there was no ROI.There was four industries beyond the bridge that seldom received cars and that isolated the only runaround track on the branch so we pulled in and reversed moved out-most of the time the locomotive was in the middle of the train-we used 2 cabins and would arrange our train in switching order at a small outlaying yard.
IMHO to many modelers follow the great layout books that shows turntables where none was used-including urban industrial branchlines..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Run um in reverse.
Larry, running the engine forward on the way up and backwards on the way down is certainly something real railroads often did on branchlines, but not all railroads (or all branchlines).
I grew up with a branch line of a small railroad (Minneapolis Northfield and Southern) running in front of my house. The line originally had a turntable (no roundhouse, just turntable) at the end of the line to turn the engines. Later when the railroad dieselized, they took out the turntable and just ran the engine forward going north and backwards going south (or ran two small diesel switchers back to back).
There's plenty of photos and film out there of branchlines with a small manual TT on the end of the line - see the last inside page of the new Kalmbach "Steam Glory 3" (or whatever it's called).
Which Wisconsin road terminated several branches with a reverse loop? I recall seeing something about this in MR.
There was one branch of the West Side Lumber Company operation out of Tuolumne, CA, that had a reverse loop at the end. Mostly they used wyes to get the smokebox end forward on the 'main stem.' The wyes were located at the main stem junctions or at branch-to-spur junctions in the woods.
tomikawaTT Which Wisconsin road terminated several branches with a reverse loop? I recall seeing something about this in MR.
February 1976 page 48.
There is also some info on it and another similar branch here:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/p/202544/2217737.aspx#2217737
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
I agree with Larry/Brakie in that a railroad would hardly spend the money on a runaround, never mind on a turntable and wye for lightly used branches. One would have to justify the expense of installing them.
On the other hand, if the branch line operated at a profit, would management see the need to make it easier for the crews to operate the line smoke box first in order to return to the crew's starting point before timing out. Of course, how much time does it take to turn around the engine. I think this is why the MR staff used diesels in the article.
__________________________________________________________________
Mike Kieran
Port Able Railway
I just do what the majority of the voices in my head vote on.
Well, let me add this, maybe more light on what I am planing. My branch will have two or three coal mines along it. If not three mines, then two and a coal truck dump. Have not made up my mind yet.....
That much traffic should generate sufficient revenue to pay for the maintenance costs of a turntable.
I'm not a steam era guy, but I would think three coal mines, depending upon their size, might even justify a small engine servicing facility and/or a small crew based out of the end of the branch.
- Douglas
Mike Kieran I agree with Larry/Brakie in that a railroad would hardly spend the money on a runaround, never mind on a turntable and wye for lightly used branches. One would have to justify the expense of installing them.
wjstix If there was no runaround track, the engine would have to push the cars backwards all the way back down the branch, or push the cars up the branch...and it could only pick up up and set out cars on spurs facing one direction. I'm pretty sure if the railroad spent the money to buy the right of way and lay the track, they could shell out the money for two turnouts and a few hundred feet of track to create a runaround track. BTW even if you had a turntable (as many steam era branches did) you'd still need some type of runaround track to get the engine to the other side of the train.
If there was no runaround track, the engine would have to push the cars backwards all the way back down the branch, or push the cars up the branch...and it could only pick up up and set out cars on spurs facing one direction. I'm pretty sure if the railroad spent the money to buy the right of way and lay the track, they could shell out the money for two turnouts and a few hundred feet of track to create a runaround track. BTW even if you had a turntable (as many steam era branches did) you'd still need some type of runaround track to get the engine to the other side of the train.
The town where I grew up was on the end of a branch and while originally it did have a runaround at the depot, when they tore the depot down, they also removed the runaround and depot spur saving three switches. So from then until the end of the line about ten years later, they did indeed push cars all the way to the end of the branch (about 13 miles). Sometimes the engine would be on one end or the other, or even in the middle with the cars pre blocked for the set outs.
The OP has since stated he plans on the branch serving two or three mines. With that level of traffic and length of train, a railroad would probably want the locomotive in front of the train, and would invest in a runaround.
With short light trains, no runaround could work.
Doughless The OP has since stated he plans on the branch serving two or three mines. With that level of traffic and length of train, a railroad would probably want the locomotive in front of the train, and would invest in a runaround. With short light trains, no runaround could work.
The time frame for my line will be somewere about the first half of the 1900's. Kinda like about 1940s or so. Short line, small steam, most likely 4-6-0s or 2-8-0s for most of the mainline service. The plan is based off MMR's Viriginian RR that was in the first half of 2012's run. Its N scale but still on a 4x8 table!
rtprimus Doughless The OP has since stated he plans on the branch serving two or three mines. With that level of traffic and length of train, a railroad would probably want the locomotive in front of the train, and would invest in a runaround. With short light trains, no runaround could work. The time frame for my line will be somewere about the first half of the 1900's. Kinda like about 1940s or so. Short line, small steam, most likely 4-6-0s or 2-8-0s for most of the mainline service. The plan is based off MMR's Viriginian RR that was in the first half of 2012's run. Its N scale but still on a 4x8 table!
Doughless Its your railroad and you can do as you want. As you can see by the responses, just about every option has been done in the real world.
Yep, that's it. There are lots of good reasons to do different things. A branch that could support a turntable when built might find that 40 years later it didn't have the traffic when the TT needed rebuilding. Or maybe the diesels came then and made it technologically obsolete. Or maybe the TT was in good shape, not used anymore, but left in place until scrap prices go up, even though diesels took over 5 years ago.
In the end, it's what you want to model in concert with the operations you want to run and the space you have to realize your layout's concept.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I know, its mine and its how I want to do it. HAHA. But what I am trying for is somethign close to the way would have been done in real life..
On another note, after reading another post on here, its got me thinking, and need some imput on this.
Should I keep my layout at 4x8 or maybe go to a hollow core door and do a 36x80 layout to just save some room in my layout space. Sence its upstairs in my soon to be finished (one day that is).
I got a new question... still on the branch return..
Got the idea more worked out but, its been a long time seance my last layout and I need to know some facts. I am thinking of steam, say small lines, 4-6-0s or 2-8-0s and the like. For a end of branch wye return, what is the tightest I could make it and still be able to get the engines though it?
Remember, Im N scale and I am working the wye with three wye switches total. Will try and post a plan here soon.
selector On two excursions on which I have been in the past five years, the steam locomotive uncoupled from the front of the consist and ran around to the 'other front' for the reverse trip. In one case, that was a 90 km trip, or about 50 miles, of running tender-first. Lucky, too, because we broadsided a large hay wagon out in the boonies. Buddy actually slowed to a crawl at the angled crossing going uphill, and to our horror accelerated slightly and continued to cross in front of us, about 50 yards away. The whistle went from a steady whoot to a louder and shriller whooeeeeeeeeee to no avail. Suuuh-LAM!. The tender suffered a partially detached stirrup and some popped and leaking rivets. The locomotive was just fine. Farmer ran on adrenaline for the next three days. Crandell
I would guess the farmer also ran to the outhouse numerous times for the next three days.
Bob
rtprimusI am thinking of steam, say small lines, 4-6-0s or 2-8-0s and the like. For a end of branch wye return, what is the tightest I could make it and still be able to get the engines though it?
If you are trying for the absolute minimum, the best approach is to mock it up and try it with the specific engines. My experience suggests about 10.5" to 11" in N scale, but even that may be tight for some steamers. I've found that the idiosyncrasies of specific steam models in N scale are more critical than the wheel arrangements.
cuyama In real life on many branches, steam engines simply ran around their trains and then ran in reverse for the return -- especially on lightly used branches. If there were turning facilities at the end of a branch, wyes were probably most common because they required much less maintenance than a turntable and less area than a balloon track. Turntables are space-saving for the model, but were not nearly as widely used at the ends of prototype branches as they seem to be on model branches. Byron
At that time the Virginian was producing large profits. Coal demand was high and the Virginian eventually became known as the "richest little railroad in the world." Very early on it was operated with a slogan of "Nothing but the best". This railroad owned locomotives that were huge, 2-10-10-2 , 2-8-8-2 , 2-6-6-6 as well as 2-8-4 and 2-8-2 types. Most of the smaller locos 10 wheelers etc would have been used on passenger trains which were a minor thing on the Virginian. Coal branches were there to generate car loads and they did even after the line was merged into the N&W. This was a road that used battleship gons to haul coal as well as the twin hoppers in use at the time, it was not a down on its heals short line.
With 4x8 feet of N scale real estate you could really do this line up nice.
One way to do so would be to use a wye as a junction with a mine at at least 2 of the legs to load cars and sidings at each location. This would allow for more traffic and allow for a run around as well. In actuality all three legs could have a loader or industry on them and that would generate a lot of traffic as well as being prototypical in the sense that track that was laid was actually used to produce revenue.
Since you're doing N on a 4X8 and following the plan, there should be room to build a wye so the locos could be turned.
A benefit of N.