Doughless,
Those are more good points.
What I tried to do with the three streets and the buildings that border them is to make the middle street a little wider and the buildings a little more prominent.
Reason being that the middle street (Dearborn Street) is actually wider than the street on the left (Federal Street ) and right (Plymouth Court).
The backdrop is at the end of a 6.5' x 12' peninsula, so the scene can be viewed from the left side as photographed or from the right or head on if you move further down the main part of the layout. The backdrop is down for the moment but I will take more photos when I put it back up.
On another issue, it was suggested that I weather the modular buildings so that they blend into the backdrop instead of standing out. I may do that, but I do like the four buildings to be prominent since they sit right across the street from Dearborn Station on the prototype.
Rich
Alton Junction
I'm on my first layout and am still doing ameturish work in comparison to you, but here's my observation.
The hotel looks to be 7 stories tall while the back drop buildings have about the same number of floors but are much taller buildings. This is not realistic.
In addition those backdrop buildings have no appeal at all and are certainly no match for the detail of the hotel.
As some one else has said this is my plugged nickel's worth that no one will give me 2 cents for..
Very interesting reading, though.
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
superbe I'm on my first layout and am still doing ameturish work in comparison to you, but here's my observation. The hotel looks to be 7 stories tall while the back drop buildings have about the same number of floors but are much taller buildings. This is not realistic.
Bob, that is a good point, and I cannot explain the discrepancy.
The four tall buildings are Walthers Cornerstone HO Modulars.
The Ambassador Hotel is a 6-story Bachmann HO City Scenes building.
The six stories of the modular buildings measure 12 inches high. The Ambassador Hotel measures 10 3/4 inches high.
Interestingly, those small buildings to the right of the hotel are DPM buildings in HO scale. They are 2-story buildings but are smaller than the height of the first two stories of the hotel which are shorter than the first two stories of the modulars.
Anyone want to offer an opinion or comment on this discrepancy?
It may be that the modulars represent warehouse type buildings and the floors may be higher on the prototype, perhaps 10 to 12 feet than the 8 to 9 foot ceilings of a hotel room.
This has been a very interesting thread from the beginning. As an HO scale modeler with a layout under construction I face some of the same issues as Rich does in making the most of my backdrops. I will readily admit that Rich has progressed much further in his modeling abilities than I have. At this point I think his buildings look great and the backdrop looks good. Blending them together to go from good to great is not an easy task and can take a lot time getting it just right so the layout owner is satisfied. I have looked at a bunch of photos of this area that show the Lee Jeans building and my opinion was that the backdrop needed less roadway and more buildings as the photos show a soaring skyline behind the modeled buildings. That said I am not the layout owner. I do want to give Rich a shout out for sharing this with the forum. It takes guts to show your work and ask for opinions and assistance. It has been a great thread so far as all the contributors have been most professional in their responses and I have learned much from all of you. These are the threads that make you enjoy the camaraderie of your fellow modelers.
Thanks
John R
John R.
Here is the scene at Dearborn Station that I was trying to replicate as much as possible in the backdrop. You can see how prominent those four buildings across from Dearborn Station appear to be.
Here are some photos of the backdrop close up after I first designed it a few years back. I have been generally pleased with the results, but I lack the artistic talent and the necessary tools to get it "right" in the sense that it reflects the perspective of close up buildings as well as the buildings beyond.
Rich,
I think the 4 buildings are not as prominent in the photo as they are in your scene. You should always put mortar lines in and weather brick structures.
And as another has suggested, I don't think those buildings in the backdrop are doing you any favors. They look a bit cartoonish compared to the styrene buildings. And more impartantly, they seem to be all the same brightness. Farther buildings should be more faded than closer buildings.
It might be better to just photograph some Chicago skyline and cut the buildings out of the photo You only need bits and pieces of the buildings so perfect photography isn't required. And you can get the right 3D angles without having to paint anything. No need for high resolution either since those tall buildings would be far in the distance, under some haze.
In the photo, the street on the left ends way in the distance, but it looks like there are 2 buildings sort placed on the street, a faded large building and a smaller darker building in front of it. Your streets run on to infinity.
- Douglas
Doughless In the photo, the street on the left ends way in the distance, but it looks like there are 2 buildings sort placed on the street, a faded large building and a smaller darker building in front of it. Your streets run on to infinity.
In the photo, the street on the left ends way in the distance, but it looks like there are 2 buildings sort placed on the street, a faded large building and a smaller darker building in front of it.
Your streets run on to infinity.
Nah, they just disappear on the horizon.
RichHOTrain,
As a native Chicagoan and avid railfan there in the 50s (and model railroader since 1954, I do believe you have the nicest portrayal of Dearborn station and that era I have seen. The station model, accompanying buildings, and backdrop go together very nicely.
Me things some of the critiques you are getting here are totally unjustified. Yes, a bit of weathering would help and a little depth on the background buildings would add to the scene, but what you have now is - in my not so humble opinion - pretty darned good.
Of course you - being the OP - opened yourself to criticism, and that is fine. I only wish those with the most critical comments posted some pics of their work - to show us "how it is really done right".
Keep up the good work!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Another thought......Have you tried taking photocopies of the actual walls of an unbuilt kit and used them as backdrop buildings? I have done this. While I have not gotten around to compiling enough for a real backdrop for my layout, I have experimented with taking a flat wall from an unbuilt kit and copying it using my home printer/copier.
It results in a much more realistic picture of a building than maybe what the walthers backdrops produce. I would think with your skills, you can practice with shading, paint some 3D effects that would look pretty sharp. You only need slivers of the buildings to be visible, so you could paste together several pictures of a shorter building to create a taller one. And of course, layering different buildings and making them smaller as you go.
If you have enough unbuilt kits laying around, you could have enough variety to have an effective backdrop, and you would have no more repetition of structures than what the Walthers product already has.
I think those Walthers backdrops were probably designed 20 years ago or longer, before most people had access to high quality copiers or photoshop type of technology.
I don't think there would be any violation of manufacturing or copyright laws by taking a picture/copy a kit wall you purchased and pasting it on your backdrop.
Hello Rich,
Here is another photo hot off the presses that showsthe Lee Jeans Building and some nice looking EL E8s....
John
John, you're right, a great looking scene and super nice E8's.
Doughless Rich, Another thought......Have you tried taking photocopies of the actual walls of an unbuilt kit and used them as backdrop buildings? I have done this. While I have not gotten around to compiling enough for a real backdrop for my layout, I have experimented with taking a flat wall from an unbuilt kit and copying it using my home printer/copier. It results in a much more realistic picture of a building than maybe what the walthers backdrops produce. I would think with your skills, you can practice with shading, paint some 3D effects that would look pretty sharp. You only need slivers of the buildings to be visible, so you could paste together several pictures of a shorter building to create a taller one. And of course, layering different buildings and making them smaller as you go. If you have enough unbuilt kits laying around, you could have enough variety to have an effective backdrop, and you would have no more repetition of structures than what the Walthers product already has. I think those Walthers backdrops were probably designed 20 years ago or longer, before most people had access to high quality copiers or photoshop type of technology. I don't think there would be any violation of manufacturing or copyright laws by taking a picture/copy a kit wall you purchased and pasting it on your backdrop.
I have thought about that. What kits are you thinking about? I think all of the suggestions made on this thread about creating a more realistic backdrop are good suggestions. The challenge is how to do it, whether it be staggering a series of building fronts, or paper backdrops like the Walthers Instant Buildings and Instant Horizons, or a photo backdrop. The challenge of the photo backdrop is trying to find a high qulaity digital file of 1950's downtown Chicago.
Meanwhile, I have made several changes to that right side backdrop including: repainting the streets to more closely match the color of the street at the foot of the backdrop, adding shadows to the sides of the paper buildings, and adding sidewalls to the four Walthers Modular buildings.
I am reluctant to tear down the entire right side backdrop and start all over because of the time and money already poured into that side of the back drop. While the backdrop could certainly be made to look more realistic, I don't think it looks all that bad, but I am obviously biased.
What still remains to be done is to complete the left side of the backdrop. At the moment, I have the Bachmann City Scenes Ambassador Hotel in front of a blue painted backdrop as shown in the original photo on this thread. But, I haven't gotten any further because I continue to mull over in my mind various options for the background, the buildings or images of buildings to be placed on the backdrop.
As I have stated previously your backdrop looks great as is and is much better than most that I have seen (and built for that matter). I think the time has come for a moratorium on the backdrop so you can concentrate on the other projects at hand like the hotel. Leaving the backdrop as is takes absolutely nothing away from your layout which is a great rendition of this action packed area. The lower angle photos look great and really do your work justice. Like an artist, a writer or doctor sometimes you have to put down the paintbrush, close the book and do no harm. When your mind is clear as time goes on you can always revisit the backdrop and decide if you want to make further adjustments
Well stated, John. Somehow, I have really gotten hung up on that backdrop. Actually, I was pretty content with it until I put up that expansion on the left side. Now, the problem is to complete the backdrop and move on. With winter approaching, and the golf season ending, i have some other layout projects to take on.
Hi, one more time..................
I say again, that is the best representation of a mid century Chicago skyline backdrop (on a layout) I have seen.
Being a freelancer myself, I failed to appreciate how much of an exact replica of that particular skyline you are trying to recreate. Photocopies of generic kits would be more helpful in producing a generic skyline, not a specific one.
When offering suggestions or observations on this forum, I'll often write them in a way so that others my apply the suggestion to their situation as well. I did not intend to suggest that you actually tear down your fine efforts and replace it with anything else. The comments are geared more towards an exploration of various options if you had a blank slate. I hope you read them that way.
I think the layout looks great. And I have seen it at other times on this forum.
Doughless (and by the way, you need a first name - - - LOL)
Don't forget that I invited ideas, thoughts, comments, and criticisms in my initial post. I think that you have offered a lot of good thoughts and comments and constructive criticism as well.
If you look at the initial photo that I posted at the beginning of this thread, you can see that the right side of the backdrop is fully decorated, having been constructed in 2008. Back then, my double main line track circled back before reaching Dearborn Station and its passenger station tracks. So the backdrop strictly represented the buildings across the street from Dearborn Station and the buildings beyond.
I think that the Walthers Instant Horizons buildings do a good job of reflecting Chicago style downtown buildings in the 1950's. I will agree that the Walthers Instant Buildings are a bit unrealistic (cartoonish?), especially since they are colored in pastels. But I needed some close by buildings to back up those four modulars, and the Walthers Instant Buildings served that need. The real problem in a backdrop like this is to cram in a whole bunch of downtown buildings to create the effect of distance.
That said, I recently extended my double main line around the front of Dearborn Station and widened the entire 12 foot long module by an additional 30 inches. Thus, I needed to add the 30 inch backdrop to the left of the original backdrop. The double main line circling in front of Dearborn Station is totally unprototypical. It never existed. So, I took the liberty to add the Bachmann Ambassador Hotel in front of the newer backdrop because it so closely represents the Hilton Hotel in Chicago. But the Hilton Hotel is actually off in a different direction from Dearborn Station. So, my rationalization is selective compression. The hotel will instantly shout Chicago, albeit in the wrong place. The viewer will have to use his imagination.
Initially, the sole purpose of this thread was to seek advice on decorating the backdrop behind the hotel. I am disappointed that not much advice was forthcoming regarding the left side of the backdrop, but so be it.
One recent discovery that I made is a manufacturer of urban buildings called Lunde Studios. I started a new thread to ask for comments on Lunde Studios. In addition to their full size urban buildings, Lunde Studios makes a kit called Quick-Flats which is a one inch deep set of windows, doors, pilasters and cornices to build a series of backdrop buildings. This could be an ideal backdrop for the left side of my layout.
So, that is pretty much where I am at the moment.
richhotrainThe challenge of the photo backdrop is trying to find a high quality digital file of 1950's downtown Chicago.
Would you settle for a 1940's high quality digital file of downtown Chicago?
Go to Library of Congress at www.loc.gov.
Then select "American Memory."
Then select "War/military"
Then select "Depression Era to World War II- FSA/OWI Photographs"
open the main page for Farm Security Administration/ Office of War Information photographs. Ognore the directions for about a million black and white photos and select 1600 color photographs.
Then search by geographic area- Illinois/ Chicago.
voila, 20 1940 vintage color photos of Chicago railyards with skyline backgrounds, a typical file is 138 meg TIFF.
I used some of these files with photos of a whole railyard and could pull up a decent pix of a single car. And they are in puiblic domain.
This area origionally was just a simple backdrop behind the pit for one of the main yards @ the club. One member experimented w/ prints and mounting on foamcore to add some sort of scene. The shelf is only 2" wide and caps the gallery track.
It worked out rather well to add some added perspective to the existing small city scene
I know your space is rather limited, but as noted adding some slight dimension of partial building sides will help w/ the effect.
The side view of this very narrow peninsula shows the relief of varioud Walther's, DPM and other kitbashed building added to the scene. Most were done and only required 1".
I couldn't locate file of the straight on finished shots of these areas. Even w/ all the planning much of this just seemed to evolve as it progressed. A lot of juggling and trial and error.
BTW the club is http://www.ssmrc.org/
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
leighant Would you settle for a 1940's high quality digital file of downtown Chicago? Go to Library of Congress at www.loc.gov.
Those are interesting photos but no views or panoramas of downtown Chicago unless I missed something.
bogp40 This area origionally was just a simple backdrop behind the pit for one of the main yards @ the club. One member experimented w/ prints and mounting on foamcore to add some sort of scene. The shelf is only 2" wide and caps the gallery track. It worked out rather well to add some added perspective to the existing small city scene
I like that photo backdrop of the tall buildings and skyscrapers. Who makes that backdrop?
richhotrain bogp40 This area origionally was just a simple backdrop behind the pit for one of the main yards @ the club. One member experimented w/ prints and mounting on foamcore to add some sort of scene. The shelf is only 2" wide and caps the gallery track. It worked out rather well to add some added perspective to the existing small city scene I like that photo backdrop of the tall buildings and skyscrapers. Who makes that backdrop? Rich
Rich, I would have to ask the club member that did this. He scanned, sized/ printed various online pics, some from printed backdrops etc. The scene is made up of numerous prints many of which are mounted on foamcore to aid in some depth.
richhotrain
One thing I noticed from this picture in particular is the importance of roofs on your buildings. My layout is only a few inches higher than yours, so we have similar "viewpoints" when looking at the scenes.
Thanks to a 45-degree roofline my layout is tucked under, I have only a couple of small places where I plan backdrops. I've put half-structures against the walls, but I made them deep enough to add real roofs to them. I'm not sure how this is going to work when I get around to putting in a backdrop behind them, but from the perspective in your photos, you should see the roofs of your buildings.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasley One thing I noticed from this picture in particular is the importance of roofs on your buildings. My layout is only a few inches higher than yours, so we have similar "viewpoints" when looking at the scenes. Thanks to a 45-degree roofline my layout is tucked under, I have only a couple of small places where I plan backdrops. I've put half-structures against the walls, but I made them deep enough to add real roofs to them. I'm not sure how this is going to work when I get around to putting in a backdrop behind them, but from the perspective in your photos, you should see the roofs of your buildings.
Mr. B., that is a good point. When I added those four Walthers modulars to my layout, I had so little space that I simply placed the four face walls onto the backdrop. Now, I have added the appearance of side walls for depth but the idea of adding roofs is a good one if I can figure out how to do it.