To use foam or not?

[piemandan64]

I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY COMMENTS ON SOUND DEADENING QUALITIES OF FOAM. DO YOUR TRAINS RUN QUIETER? IT SEEMS LIKE THIS STUFF WOULD MAKE IT ECHO OR REVERBERATE LOUDER. OF COURSE W/MY NEWER LOCO'S, I HAVE MORE ROAD NOISE FROM THE CARS THAN ANYTHING ELSE. JUST CURIOUS.

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by piemandan64

I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY COMMENTS ON SOUND DEADENING QUALITIES OF FOAM. DO YOUR TRAINS RUN QUIETER? IT SEEMS LIKE THIS STUFF WOULD MAKE IT ECHO OR REVERBERATE LOUDER. OF COURSE W/MY NEWER LOCO'S, I HAVE MORE ROAD NOISE FROM THE CARS THAN ANYTHING ELSE. JUST CURIOUS.

Foam is generally an amplifier of sound, BUT that mostly depends on the adhesives you use. I've found that using silicone caulk on either the track or roadbed reduces the sound to almost nothing, as does running trains slower. Adding a thin layer of plywood (1/4") also helps greatly reduce the drum effect of foam. I use al three techniques, and basically hear no foam amplification of train noise. Running my freights at over 35 SMPH with all metal wheelsets is generally the noisest thing on my layout!

[Anonymous]

Ok if I can't get 1" think foam in my area, then can I just use 3/4", or should I put two 3/4" together? Does the subterran need to be 1" - 2" thick?

[orsonroy]

The subterrain doesn't "need" to be 2" thick, but it doesn't hurt. Foam is pretty rigid and dimensionally stable, so f you use 2" foam, you can get away with using 1/4" plywood under it, or even no support wood at all! With 3/4" foam, I'd suggest nothing less than 1/2" plywood under the foam.

Using more foam under the basic track line will also allow you to model scenery more effectively. Many, many model railroads model scenery above the track line, but few effectively model lots of scenery BELOW it. And let's face it, terrain goes down as much as it goes up. Here in the midwest, the track is usually the highest ground around, meaning that there's a LOT of scenery happening below track. The best way to effectively model this feature is to have a lot of foam to carve into. My layout is set in central Illinois and has a 2" foam base. Not only do I use all of the 2" of foam in places, but I also occasionally drop the scenery below it to a second 2" thick sheet, especially at rivers.

[Anonymous]

I hope I'm not repeating myself here (losing track of which forum I'm on these days.)

The initial stage of my new layout (N Scale) is a 30"deep by 7 1/2' long module constructed of 1" foam with no plywood underneath. The foam rests on 1x2s on the flat at about 2' on center. Since it is a mountainous section, the foam mountains bonded to the foam base make for an extremely rigid structure. Picture the fragility of the thin foam used in plastic cups but the rigidity and strength of that cup in its molded form and standing upside-down on a table.

In fact, the foam is not attached to the wood framing and while moving it, I put the layout minus the wood framing supported only at the ends and it was remarkably strong. It would break in two if I put too much weight in the center of course, but it demonstrated to me that for my use, 2" foam over 1/2" plywood makes little sense. We are not using it for a dance floor and I do not plan on walking on it.

My suggestion is to experiment. Look at the stresses being put on your layout and determine the minimum materials needed to resist them. It makes little sense to overbuild unless your materials are plentiful and free. I had a supply of free 1" pink foam and some 1x2's. Though it proved to be more than sufficient, my plan was to add another layer to the bottom if needed. My first module, almost fully sceniced weighs no more than 14 lbs, with half being the wood framing.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

I built my module / shelf layout out of 1" foam bonded to 1/4" birch ply and 1x3's where the shelf supports are. Fairly light and very strong. it's total size is 10' x 10' x 24" in an "L. 3 sections. On top of the foam I'm using Scenic designs grades and inclines. I will be using more 1 and 2" foam for the mt's and tunnels. Another nice feature is It's light enough to be taken down to do work at waiste level, and then put back at neck level. Dave

http://www.saycheesephoto.com/model_trains/leftleg.jpg

[Anonymous]

Now I'm a complete newbie, but I've read a couple books that talk about using 1/2" foam core as your only base. then using 2" wide slats of the foam core to create joists to support the foam core. Anyone had any experience with this?

I'm almost done with the benchwork and I'll update everyone with the stability and sound questions.

Josh

[Anonymous]

to fwright:: I just emailed dickiee to say I built an 11 by 28 around the walls HO layout a few years ago, all on foam with only 1 X 2 wood supports every couple of feet. Cork held well with white glue, and track nails held the track , at least for a year until I had to tear it all down and downsize my life. Both track and cork came up with great ease. Track pulled right out, and cork easily scraped off with a drywall spatula. I suspect the track would have stayed solid forever, even in a damp basement. One end of the layout had a 36 inch minimum radius up and over double track loop with support for foam only about every 3 feet. It worked beautifully, and the Super Chief looked great on it. I am going with foam on a folding table top now that I'm beginning a 2 1/2 by 6 N scale pike, and I know it'll work great, too. Foam rocks on, man.

[Anonymous]

to fwright:: I just emailed dickiee to say I built an 11 by 28 around the walls HO layout a few years ago, all on foam with only 1 X 2 wood supports every couple of feet. Cork held well with white glue, and track nails held the track , at least for a year until I had to tear it all down and downsize my life. Both track and cork came up with great ease. Track pulled right out, and cork easily scraped off with a drywall spatula. I suspect the track would have stayed solid forever, even in a damp basement. One end of the layout had a 36 inch minimum radius up and over double track loop with support for foam only about every 3 feet. It worked beautifully, and the Super Chief looked great on it. I am going with foam on a folding table top now that I'm beginning a 2 1/2 by 6 N scale pike, and I know it'll work great, too. Foam rocks on, man.

[Anonymous]

Well here goes. I have recently started to expand my layout. I decided to use foam for the bench work. first I built the support frame from 1X4 pine, making sure everything stayed square. Next I layed in tha foam. worked great. I used a constuction adhesive PL3000 which works well with foam. Next came the road bed for the track. Again gllued with PL3000. Next I layed the track . I glued it with white glue. It all worked well. The only problem I have found is that in the radiused corners it tends to get quite loud when the train runs through. Much louder than where I have plywood base. Other wise simple to work with and forgiving if a mistake is made.

[Anonymous]

I just want to take a minute to thank everyone that sent in a suggestion to this quiry. I have never seen such responce to questions as I have seen here at the Model RR . BB's
The members here really take an interest in helping a fellow modeler. I am returning to the hobby after a long absence, and greatly appreciate all the helpful suggestions.
Keep it up....
Ken[:o)][:o)][:o)][:o)]

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Thom

I'm building my first N Scale Layout. It is 8'x12'. I used 1/2" plywood covered by at least 2" of foam (4" in some places.) Here's what I learned.

- It can take more than 2 weeks for glue to dry when gluing large pieces of foam together. Its much better to wait for the glue to dry before shaping.
- Both Liquid Nails and Yellow (wood) glue work well to glue down the foam. Yellow glue is cheaper.

For glueing foam especially large or laminating layers, try using ceramic tile adhesive. I came upon it's use by accident. The advantages are good initial tack, faster drying and low cost. It is available in quart, gallons and 2 1/2 gallon pails. Remember to spread w/ a notched trowel, the air trapped makes a suction for initial hold and drying.
Can also use like a sculpumold layer and surface bonding.
Give it a try on some scrap, I think you may find a use.
Bob K.

[Anonymous]

Hello all,

I am new to the hobby and currently planing a small 4 X 8 layout. I want to thank all you for the comments posted here concerning this subject. You have made my decision very simple and follow your advices.

Thank you all for taking the time to make your views known so that not only seasoned modelers but also "newbies" like myself can learn quickly and have a successfull experience.

Luc
CPR fan

[Anonymous]

Any fishermen out there????? I use my electric fish filet knife to shape the foam board,
cuts like a charm and doesn't make that much of a mess. Quick also.
The Harven

[Anonymous]

hello all im new to the hobby as well i have my bench work done and am planning to use foam also i have found alot of great advice here and want to share one site i stumbled upon hope it helps someone out there.

http://tutor.modeltrain.com./

and if this works here is a diagram of my layout area and yes this will be my first layout.

[nucat78]

QUOTE:

To dano99a:

The pics on your web site are great ones for showing the construction details...it looks like you went with 1/2" plywood under the foam. orsonroy suggests that is overkill...that luan plywood is enough. I'm a little afraid of going that thin. If you had it to do over would you go thinner on the plywood. I'm not too concerned about the cost or the weight so much as the strength. I may have to put a piece together to test it for myself. I just hate making these kind of decisions.

Thanks for the compliment! :)

Well,I'd say the 1/4 is the way to go, but I also am interested in trying it without the plye wood at all as mentioned above. I figure if you have enough cross beams under the foam then it wouldn't really matter if you had the plye wood or not. But if you want some kind of base I'd say 1/4, 1/2 is kinda overkill as stated above.

I use 1/8-inch hardboard laminated to 2-inch foam at "module" joints only.  Otherwise, the foam rests directly on metal shelf brackets with some wooden wedges at the back since the brackets slope toward the wall.  No problems so far.

 

[BigRusty]

Do any of you think that foam board is a permanent, durable, long lasting material? Every layout that I have built (7 over 60 years) was built using 3/4 inch plywood with either homosote or cork roadbed. I NEVER had any problems with these materials because, as near as possible they are PERMANENT! They don't collapse under pressure, or sag or warp or distort. Some of lasted for twenty years. Try that with foam. The only place for foam board, is where it was designed for, as non load bearing batting between wall studs.

[abbieleibowitz]

Having been around for a while myself, I understand your confusion. In my experience, you should think of foam as a replacement for the plywood, and certainly if you are using foam, 1/2" plywood is way overkill. Many people mount foam directly on L-girder cross members or shelf brackets. I use a frame approach, now called "dominos," with a 1x3 frame about 48 inches long and a cross member every 18-24 inches. I put 1/4 inch plywood over the frame and glue 3 inches of foam to the plywood. Many people would skip even this skinny plywood altogether.

I agree with you that the sound deadening properties of foam vs plywood are about the same. Foam is cheaper, foot for foot, at least at my Home Depot. And you can cut it with a knife so you don't have to be a master carpenter with a million dollar workshop to work with it.

Foam makes a good layout base. You can glue the cork roadbed to it with latex caullk. It stays moveable for about 10 minutes to make adjustments and the cork and track are removable with a putty knife if you want to change anything later. Some people glue the track right to the foam without cork or Woodland Scenics' rubber roadbed, but I like the higher profile the cork gives, at least along the mainline.

Finally, if you want to carve the foam or fill in any dings or dents or seams, you can use sculptamold or plaster or even spackle. Take a look at some of the recent issues of Model Railroader for more hints.

Abbie

[TheK4Kid]

I built my benchwork with 1x4 sides, and 1x3 crossframe members, and used 2x4's for legs.

 I glued my 2 inch pink foam tabletops down to the crossmembers with a caulk like glue, worked great!

 

 I cut a couple of 4 x8 foam sheets in two, and glued them to my 4 foot wide sections, and made my tabletops 6 feet wide, so I could allow for wide radius turns. 

Each table has six 2x4 legs , bolted on. 

 The 1x 3's are crossmembers betweeen the 1x4's,(screwed and glued in place) built like a wooden lattice bedframe.

Simple to build, low cost, yet quite strong! 

I know there are various ways of doing this, but this worked for me! 

 Then used pink foam as my base, only my tables are 6 feet wide, and 8 feet long, 3 of them simply joined end to end by carriage bolts. I used adjustable screw type table leg levelers on the bottom of my legs. It came out great. My total table length is 24 feet, by 6feet wide, and 45 inches off the floor. 

 By the way, my layout is totally a walk around situation, accessible from all sides. 

Simply set a level on top each way, and adjusted each table to perfectly level. 

It is STRONG, LIGHTWEIGHT, and if I ever want to move it, it easily comes apart( legs are bolted on), tip them(the tables) up on edge and with two guys you can walk away with it, right up the basement staircase.

 I am in the process of laying roadbed (WS foam) and getting ready to put down track. Just as soon as my fractured left foot heals up, I'll be back downstairs in the trainroom. Kind of hard to negotiate the stairway on crutches!

 

 Happy MRRing to all!

 

 Ed

aka TheK4Kid 

[orsonroy]

Do any of you think that foam board is a permanent, durable, long lasting material?

Yes; I do for one. I've got Ntrak modules that are ten years old and foam-based. They've held up pretty well for being used 2 to 4 times a year, and stored in a Midwestern garage.

There are several LARGE home layouts out there that are foam-based and approaching (or passing) the ten year mark with no structural issues.

Every layout that I have built (7 over 60 years) was built using 3/4 inch plywood with either homosote or cork roadbed. I NEVER had any problems with these materials because, as near as possible they are PERMANENT!

So is stone, but I doubt that your house is made of slabs of granite. There are many types of layout construction that will work well, and which will hold up well. But I don't hear of many layouts built out of basalt or welded steel plates.

They don't collapse under pressure, or sag or warp or distort.

Sure they will. Badly supported plywood sags. Badly dried dimensional lumber will crown. Unsealed wood will swell, split, attract wood-boring insects, absorb moisture and mold, etc, etc, etc. It's all in how you treat your layout base that matters, be it concrete or cardboard.

Some of lasted for twenty years. Try that with foam.

Foam's too new a technique to make the claim that it'll last 20 years. Let me get back to you in ten though, and I'll tell you how things turned out. Besides, how many layouts REALLY last 20 years?

The only place for foam board, is where it was designed for, as non load bearing batting between wall studs.

There are thousands of modelers who happily disagree. Did you complain when they took asbestos-based plaster off the market? In the 1960s it was hailed by the hobby press as a godsend; it was the Sculptamold of its day...

[nucat78]

I'll just have to try some other HDs in the area, and see if they have the thicker stuff.

You can laminate foam to build up thicker sheets if getting 2-inch stuff is a PITA.  A lot of people will laminate two 2-inch sheets together so they can cut deep(er) landforms like rivers using the top of the sheets as zero elevation.

 

 

[onebiglizard]

Ray, I'd love to see your layout plans and some pics.  I'm about half way around the walls of a 13 x 24 room using construction similar to yours, except I've used a 1x4 frame under my foam and 1x2 braces angled from about 20" back to a 2x2 on the wall.  When starting out I wanted to have no legs to the floor - now I'm backing off on that and considering a 2level peninsula down the center of the room, and maybe staging on 1' shelves below the sections I've already built.  I'm really interested in seeing how you created your multideck layout in a space so similar to mine.  Thanks!

Bill Field

Mopac & Frisco thru ol St. Lou.. 

 

 

 

[fefjr]

Hi. I'm using 2" foam on a frame of 1x4 with cross pieces every 2 feet. So far there's been no problems with it. My layout is 15x22 shelf around the room. good luck, Fred

[R. T. POTEET]

You can carve it, sand it, cut it, glue more foam to it and sand that

Yeah, you can do just about everything with it except FIND IT!!!! I had to go all the way to the national convention in Cincinnati to encounter it on a layout tour.  I did realize that I had seen it one time without realizing what I was looking at.

Some years back I drifted into a local one morning and encountered a group of joyeous modelers.  Why was everyone so happy? I ask.  Because, it was explained to me, Lowes had just received a shipment of foam but it was expected to go fast and I should get up there immediately to take advantage of this

great opportunity.

  Several people were in the process of tromping all over others as they attempted to break the existing Guiness record for exiting the parking lot.

At that particular moment I wasn't in a position to take advantage of any

opportunity - great or small.

A couple of days later I did drift into a Lowes and inquired about this stuff only to be greeted with that 'I-only-work-here-you-don't-really-expect-me-to-have-intelligence-do-you?' look. (I sometimes wonder if Lowes and Home Depot are not secret subsidiaries of Radio Shack which also never seems to have anything!) The next time I visited the local I ask about this elusive supply of foam and I was told that this had all been a wildassrumor; I have never seen this stuff outside of my one and only encounter at Cincinnati two years past - and its not for a lack of my asking about it.

I think I'll stick with plywood, homasote®, cork, and hydrocal®; not only do I know how to use them I KNOW WHERE TO FIND THEM WHEN I NEED THEM.  I don't want to go looking for foam only to find out that its going to be six months before the next shipment comes in.

[orsonroy]

Ray, I'd love to see your layout plans and some pics.  I'm about half way around the walls of a 13 x 24 room using construction similar to yours, except I've used a 1x4 frame under my foam and 1x2 braces angled from about 20" back to a 2x2 on the wall.  When starting out I wanted to have no legs to the floor - now I'm backing off on that and considering a 2level peninsula down the center of the room, and maybe staging on 1' shelves below the sections I've already built.  I'm really interested in seeing how you created your multideck layout in a space so similar to mine. 

Well, OK; I'm game Bill.

Here's the plan for my new layout. This is something like "plan 12", since I've been doodling plans for the basement for the two years that I've owned my new house!

The layout depicts a 20-odd mile long chunk of the NKP mainline from Frankfort, IN, to Peoria, IL. The layout depicts three towns (six "stations") near the center of the line. All the trackplans for the individual towns are nothing more than LDEs plunked down onto the basic "footprint" of the layout, and condensed as necessary.

The upper level (first image) shows the mainline exiting the eastern end staging in the utility room through the drywall wall, heading across a half-height studwall (no backdrop; it keeps the room more "open"), and into the first town, Gibson City, IL. The mainline heads through the NKP part of town, which features a passing siding, elevator, feed dealer, and stock pen. It then heads through a three way diamond with the IC and Wabash, interchanging with each road. The NKP mainline then ducks behind the HUGE Central Soya elevator and mill, which is worked by the IC. The NKP main then heads through the whistlestop town of Saybrook, IL, and heads into the helix to the lower level.

The helix itself is pretty straightforward, being 40" radius and four laps. I really didn't have the room to add a helix completely inside any one room in the basement, so I'm going to embed it into the stud wall, looping around the corner. I'll use the studs as part of the support for the levels of the helix.

The lower level depicts one city, Bloomington, IL, which was a major industrial center of central Illinois. There are three "stations" within Bloomington: from east to west they're Dean, Bloomington, and West Side. The Peoria and Eastern, a NYC subsidiary road, ran next to the NKP main through town, creating a pretty dense rail area. Both lines served their own industries and did not interchange with each other (they WERE competitors), had their own assigned town switchers and freight houses, but used the same depot in the heart of the city. At Dean both lines crossed the IC's "Gruber Line". In downtown the mains were crossed by the Illinois Terminal electric interurban line, and at West Side crossed both of the GM&O's main lines at BN Target (the tower there, which was little more than a shed!). The NKP main then heads back into the utility room and into a stub-ended staging yard. The P&E will feature continuous running for the lower level (I consider continuous running a must-have someplace on a layout).

The layout itself is in the post-planning stages. The plan has been vetted by several top NKP modelers and layout designers, so the plans pretty much reflect reality at this point. The basement has recently been finished, and I'm in the process of painting the top half of the walls sky blue. I plan on starting to build the half wall in July, and I should have all of the brackets up and the helix started by Labor day (I have VERY little time to actually build the layout these days, since I have two kids under three at home!)

The lower level will be at 48", and the upper level will be at 63" (I'm 6'2", so the upper level will be at chin height). Basic layout construction will be 1/4" Lauan plywood and 2" foam, supported by 10x12 metal shelf brackets, same as on my last layout:

I will be modifying my basic benchwork construction by adding 1x3s between the brackets and the plywood. This will allow me to extend the width of the shelves to 28"-30", which is necessary in a couple of areas to squeeze everything in. The 1x3s will also give me some place sturdy to mount a fascia.

Since I'm modeling the flatlands, 2" foam should be enough for all of my scenery needs. The basic roadbed will be homemade: strips of 1/2" thick foam cut to 1.5" widths, laid like cork, and beveled once they've been added to the base foam. On top of that will go N scale cork roadbed and the track, all laid with latex caulk.

This is a photo of my old layout, showing various stages of construction. The upper levels on the left show my homemade roadbed, while the lower left shows the roughed in bevels and base scenery level. To the far center right is a finished area.

The half wall will be constructed out of 2x2s, and anchored to the floor and side walls, similar to what I had built on my old layout:

I'll be keeping the area under the layout levels open as well as above, to keep the space as open as possible. The center of the layout area will be left open as a kid's "rumpus room".

That's about it for now. I'm hoping to start on the half wall next weekend (I've got all of the materials I need to build the layout already stashed). I have mocked up the layout heights, just to make sure that I could live with them:

Feel free to comment or ask questions!

 

[TheK4Kid]

This is how I have built mine

[img*]http://i129photobucket.com/albums/p214/TheK4Kid[/img*]

 

 Hope I remembered how to post these pics correctly, if not I'll try again 

[TheK4Kid]

Well, I need to try again! Used to be able to do it, but it's been awhile

[TheK4Kid]

Will try again

[img*]http://i129photobucket.com/albums/p214/TheK4Kid[img*/] 

[TheK4Kid]

Well gues it just isn't going to work anymore. I keep getting a message saying copying, pasting, cutting in Mozilla Firefox isn't possible