CharlieM90 Are you locked into a penninsula? Have you considered (instead of a penninsula) making an "L" shaped shelf for that area with connections at west wall (north of company houses) and at south wall (where lumber mill is. You could use a lift gate for access. That would expand your run length and avoid all of those back-to-back 180 curves through there that are taking up room. More possibilities for sidings and you eliminate long reaches while keeping your 30" min radius. Could move your logging operation to the center shelf portion and have a lot more room for operation and take up less with all the curves. I'd make a 4" wide shelf extending out from north of the company houses and then a narrow connection on the south side at the lumber mill and put a swing/lift there. Loop your main through there with some bridges/tunnels and you'd have some nice scenic possibilities too.
Are you locked into a penninsula?
Have you considered (instead of a penninsula) making an "L" shaped shelf for that area with connections at west wall (north of company houses) and at south wall (where lumber mill is.
You could use a lift gate for access. That would expand your run length and avoid all of those back-to-back 180 curves through there that are taking up room. More possibilities for sidings and you eliminate long reaches while keeping your 30" min radius. Could move your logging operation to the center shelf portion and have a lot more room for operation and take up less with all the curves.
I'd make a 4" wide shelf extending out from north of the company houses and then a narrow connection on the south side at the lumber mill and put a swing/lift there. Loop your main through there with some bridges/tunnels and you'd have some nice scenic possibilities too.
Your idea is a good one but judging by the progress I have made on my track plan, I am pretty certain I want a peninsula. I just like the way the current configuration looks.
Doughless Try pinching the base of the peninsula by maintaining the curve of the mainline to where it tunnels under the logging branch and pops out along the south wall. This should allow you narrower benchwork at that point and better reach to the logging tracks. If your equipment does not require 30" radius to stay on the track (most doesn't) you can reduce the radius of the track that's concealed in the tunnel, which would help everything fit. I amend my previous thought about you do not having room for a helix, you do. Your choice if you want to go there.
Try pinching the base of the peninsula by maintaining the curve of the mainline to where it tunnels under the logging branch and pops out along the south wall. This should allow you narrower benchwork at that point and better reach to the logging tracks. If your equipment does not require 30" radius to stay on the track (most doesn't) you can reduce the radius of the track that's concealed in the tunnel, which would help everything fit.
I amend my previous thought about you do not having room for a helix, you do. Your choice if you want to go there.
The 30" radius is mainly for aesthetic reasons, though some locomotives can be fussy.
I thought about pinching it off but it took away space from the area I plan to use for the logging railroad branchline. However, I have decided to add a triangular shaped access hatch for easy access.
Here's the latest version of my track plan. I've made some major changes, including the addition of a hidden staging yard. Thoughts and suggestions are welcome.
Generally this looks nice - especially given the inspiration (I'm modelling the C&O's Hawks Nest Branch myself). A few thoughts however:
1. You will need to work in several cross-overs in the double track loop so trains can service the various tipples,etc. Right now you sort of have isolated loops.
2. Can you work a truck dump or two into the design? One might work in the top left hand corner and maybe along the area above the hidden staging.
3. You might be able to make more of the lumber mill interchange - with more track for the narrow guage (??) logging line and finished lumber loading. These things can be very large and complex facilities. You might want to look as Cass, WV for some ideas.
4. If at all possible move the hidden staging toward the aisle in the space and plan on increasing the spacing between tracks during construction. It'll make it easier to do any maintaince. You might also want to cosider having any switch machines installed topside in this yard - just less headaches in the long run.
Given you're targeting the steam/diesel transition era, what loco's do you intended to run? If you are running a doodle-bug be mindful that these beasties are basically full size passenger car length and 24in radii is the smallest I'd use wherever this has to run. And watch the trailing coach (if being used) - some brands such as Walthers while very nice looking are just plain trouble at 24 inches (I have one car that simply does not like any curve)
Charles
What type of grade do you need to have that staging yard under that area? Keep in mind that you have the standard track separation plus the benchwork plus roadbed on the track. Then if you want space to be able to reach the back track of that yard you will need even more separation. Just something to think about.
Chris
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stilson4283 What type of grade do you need to have that staging yard under that area? Keep in mind that you have the standard track separation plus the benchwork plus roadbed on the track. Then if you want space to be able to reach the back track of that yard you will need even more separation. Just something to think about. Chris
The drawing is kind of misleading and I haven't documented all the specs yet, other than calculating them as I go. It's kind of complicated but I'll try to explain.I'm allowing 3.5 inches for the space between the top of the plywood of the staging yard and the bottom of the joists of the upper deck. I know it sounds tight but the opening between the joists of the upper deck allow additional space for reaching in as needed.The majority of the layout will be at a nominal elevation of approximately 1.5 inches to allow for dips in the scenery. I don't recall the exact lengths but the long tracks on each end of the upper deck with the mine, work out to approximately 1.7% grade. The staging yard is at 0 elevation and the yard leads will climb as follows.Staging yard left lead: grade 2% up (rise 1.5 inches, run 75 inches)Staging yard right lead: 1.6% up (rise 1 inch, run 60 inches)Fiddle yard left lead: grade 1.6% up (rise .5 inch, run 30 inches)Fiddle yard right lead: grade 1.6% down (rise 1 inch, run 60 inches)
The tolerances are kind of tight but I've allowed some wiggle rom to compensate for the track and roadbed plus any minor changes that may need to be made along the way.
dbwv69 Here's the latest version of my track plan. I've made some major changes, including the addition of a hidden staging yard. Thoughts and suggestions are welcome.
Just for safety's sake - the three doors into the room and reasonable aisles between these doors are covered within the not drawn square at upper right, along with the actual bathroom?
Smile, Stein
steinjr Just for safety's sake - the three doors into the room and reasonable aisles between these doors are covered within the not drawn square at upper right, along with the actual bathroom? Smile, Stein
Here's a 3D image of the model the track plan image was made from. It should help put it all into perspective.
I've been looking for ways I can incorporate a reversing loop or wye into the design without having much (if any) impact on anything else and the peninsula seems like the best place to do it.
I like the updated plan. However, with the addition of a Y switch buried in the tunnel, and only a 3.5 inch clearance for the hidden staging, you're forging into some ambitious construction and access planning issues.
I have never had a layout with staging below the benchwork, but reading other threads on the subject tells me that most who have had such staging would find only 3.5 inches scary, especially for accessing the tracks towards the back.
You may want to research that specific topic before you start sawing wood.
- Douglas
dbwv69
Looks like a perfectly sensible way to fit the layout into the room. You can always fiddle a bit more with it, trying to get more headroom and longer tracks for staging, but it should be close enought for you to finalize the room walls and doors before it gets cold.
If you should later decide you need more aisle space, you can always just run the mains across the neck of a narrower peninsula, and use a slimmed down peninsula for the logging line.
Btw - thanks for your patience in confirming how the room looked and the location of doors and aisles. Good drawings.
Don't forget wmshay's suggestion to add crossovers . Right now you have two independent loops.
As to the depth of clearance for staging, the hobby shop I frequent has a switching layout on top of the merchandise display in one of the isles. They do not seem to have any issues with access although it is tight about the width of or slightly less than my hand. They have quite a few tracks under the layout and the trains back into the tracks.
Of note if the layout is built fairly high and the tracks are spaced fairly wide access from under neath the layout should be ok. Also if the tracks are spaced even wider gaps in the bench work for the staging yard could allow access from the rear as well.
I would consider combining the fiddle yard and the staging yard so as to have one larger staging yard and modeling a working interchange in the area of the green building. A small engine terminal could be modeled and trough trains could be run for some of the branch traffic. The through trains could be longer and run with larger power and go in and out of staging and interchange with the branch. A switcher of some type could be stationed at the junction and work the branch.
I think you have the makings of a very nice railroad, that should be easy to build and maintain. It would also be versatile in that you could easily run operations or just turn some on and rail-fan the layout if you desire. Sounds like having your cake and eating it too.
I think that may be a little tight for that staging yard, also I would switch the ladder direction. You will want to see the turnouts to make sure the they are clear.
I went and put together a drawing showing what I was talking about earlier. All turnouts are #6s and radius (except for the branch) has a 30" min. This has stacked visible staging yards of three tracks each. The lower yard (shown in the upper left hand corner) has tracks that are about 25' long, so you can park at least two 10' long trains on each track. The upper staging yard has tracks about 22' long. I put in a yard close to the upper staging with the yard lead wrapping around the peninsula. The upper staging yard and other yard is 12" above the lower one which works out to be about a 1.75% grade from the lower staging yard to the upper yard. The loop encircling the upper peninsula could be a branch line or logging line whichever you wish. That has a 2% grade to get the 4" elevation difference. I did not add in any of the sidings or industries to this plan and the yard is by no way a finished product.
The side view shows the separation between the levels, it woulds out to be about 10" if you can keep the benchwork at 2".
I think doing something like this will cause you less headache than the small staging yard with 3.5" separation, plus the trains in staging will be visible.
V/R,
Should be a good plan, but I believe there may be a hitch: If I remember correctly, the National Electric Code-almost certainly mandated by your local code and good sense in any case-requires 3' clear access in front of a panel box. Yours is obstructed by the layout and I am sure a duck-under or reach-over does not qualify.
Dante
I've decided to reduce the size of the bathroom which occupies the upper right corner of the room as shown on the plan and relocate the entry door for the garage. Initially, I believed the extra space would not be of much use but after experimenting with various ideas, I've discovered that it was just enough to allow for new configurations I was unable to consider before. Unfortunately, this means that I will have to abandon the old plan and create a new one but I believe the end result will be worth it in the end.
The following image shows how the room will look with one possible benchwork configuration. The line going around the benchwork was used to get an idea of how many feet of mainline track was possible.
You have a very nice useable space. One other idea for track planning might be to take a look at the West Port Terminal web site. The basic track plan is a twice around with switching and staging under the layout. It also has a peninsula as your layout space accommodates. That particular railroad has a different reason for it's existence than yours, however you may be able to incorporate your industries into a similar track plan, substituting your design elements for the ones in use on that layout. The transition from visible to hidden track is quite smooth and maybe just what you are looking for. The website also has some very nice video that will allow you to see the layout operate and enjoy some vicarious model railroading, I have enjoyed it quite a bit. The layout is American prototype in Europe and very inspirational. I just wish we could have a feature on the layout in MR, hint hint.
dbwv69 n short, I've decided to reduce the size of the bathroom which occupies the upper right corner of the room as shown on the plan and relocate the entry door for the garage. Initially, I believed the extra space would not be of much use but after experimenting with various ideas, I've discovered that it was just enough to allow for new configurations I was unable to consider before. Unfortunately, this means that I will have to abandon the old plan and create a new one but I believe the end result will be worth it in the end. The following image shows how the room will look with one possible benchwork configuration. The line going around the benchwork was used to get an idea of how many feet of mainline track was possible.
n short, I've decided to reduce the size of the bathroom which occupies the upper right corner of the room as shown on the plan and relocate the entry door for the garage. Initially, I believed the extra space would not be of much use but after experimenting with various ideas, I've discovered that it was just enough to allow for new configurations I was unable to consider before. Unfortunately, this means that I will have to abandon the old plan and create a new one but I believe the end result will be worth it in the end.
A long peninsula - my favorite konfiguration for a longer mainline, since length is what we first run out of in a model railroad. Long and narrow scenes, walk along - this looks very promising!
Great that you found a way of making the bathroom smaller and move those doors!
steinjr A long peninsula - my favorite konfiguration for a longer mainline, since length is what we first run out of in a model railroad. Long and narrow scenes, walk along - this looks very promising! Great that you found a way of making the bathroom smaller and move those doors! Smile, Stein
I also like the longer benchwork configuration and may commit to it as a basis for designing the new track plan. Although I'm concerned about the uninterrupted length of the longest wall it would make a great place for staging.
hi,
Some time ago Stein asked you about the train-length you are considering. I have been drawing a plan without a duck-under, the minimum radius applied is 30". Drawback is underground staging, though with a 8" difference in height it is doable.
Generally speaking you should be more specific about the type of yard you have been drawing. The plans I've seen so far have a very great operating potential, way more then for one or two operators.
A logging empire could be build on one the peninsula's. Question remains if logging is the best option. It seems to be an open top activity, so you'll have to re-stage the cars after each session. Another poster opted for a loop to loop system, best suited for layouts without open top traffic.
Building something small first would not be my choice, building the proposed plan in phases could be a way out. You could start with one of the peninsula's.
Smile
Paul
The LION would be careful about making staging areas too low. Him used 12" and maybe wishes he had more vertical in there. Here are some pics:
The LION has just torn these tracks out of there and is redoing this lower level to accommodate a four track main line instead of the two staging yards. The LION is grateful that he left the space. LION thinks that these things can be "over-planned." When he started this was to be a commuter railroad and the lower level was supposed to be long-distance staging. But as the layout was being built inexpensive plastic HO subway trains became available, and the whole layout evolved into full fledged subway layout. I am glad I can fit my paws in there to make the changes that I want to make. Even so, I had to rip out a two track helix to replace it with a four track helix. The folks at the hobby shop are rubbing their hands together in anticipation of my buying another 300' bundle of tracks.
If you have not started building yet, you may be interested in the "Construction" photos on my web site.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Paulus Jas hi, Some time ago Stein asked you about the train-length you are considering. I have been drawing a plan without a duck-under, the minimum radius applied is 30". Drawback is underground staging, though with a 8" difference in height it is doable. Generally speaking you should be more specific about the type of yard you have been drawing. The plans I've seen so far have a very great operating potential, way more then for one or two operators. A logging empire could be build on one the peninsula's. Question remains if logging is the best option. It seems to be an open top activity, so you'll have to re-stage the cars after each session. Another poster opted for a loop to loop system, best suited for layouts without open top traffic.
As always, you make sense. Very good proposal.
Hi!
I've been following this thread since the beginning and I have to wonder when (or if) the OP is going to start to build a room or a layout. With all the help the good folks on this Forum have provided already, it seems that the OP would have all the info needed to actually get started.
I have to admit, after reading all the good ideas and suggestions you all have provided the OP, I feel kind of foolish that I actually designed and built my layout all by my lonesome. Ha, next time, I'll be sure to call on you guys to get your input in laying out my room and benchwork and track design and heck, you can even select my locos and rolling stock too!
ENJOY !!!!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
mobilman44 Hi! I've been following this thread since the beginning and I have to wonder when (or if) the OP is going to start to build a room or a layout. With all the help the good folks on this Forum have provided already, it seems that the OP would have all the info needed to actually get started. I have to admit, after reading all the good ideas and suggestions you all have provided the OP, I feel kind of foolish that I actually designed and built my layout all by my lonesome. Ha, next time, I'll be sure to call on you guys to get your input in laying out my room and benchwork and track design and heck, you can even select my locos and rolling stock too! ENJOY !!!! Mobilman44
You seem to imply that I am incapable of doing anything on my own, simply because I asked for advice.
Paulus Jas hi, Some time ago Stein asked you about the train-length you are considering. I have been drawing a plan without a duck-under, the minimum radius applied is 30". Drawback is underground staging, though with a 8" difference in height it is doable. Generally speaking you should be more specific about the type of yard you have been drawing. The plans I've seen so far have a very great operating potential, way more then for one or two operators. A logging empire could be build on one the peninsula's. Question remains if logging is the best option. It seems to be an open top activity, so you'll have to re-stage the cars after each session. Another poster opted for a loop to loop system, best suited for layouts without open top traffic. Building something small first would not be my choice, building the proposed plan in phases could be a way out. You could start with one of the peninsula's. Smile Paul
Thanks for the suggestion.
Quick comment: Paulus did not draw a dogbone with the track doubling back on the same level - he sketched a point-to-point layout, which duck down into under table staging at the ends of the peninsulas.
You could have continuous run - if you let the train run through staging to the opposite end of the layout to reappear on the visible part of the layout again for another trip through the visible layout in the same direction as the first time - now representing another, later train.
Or you can swap what train runs - let one run into staging, and another appear from staging.
steinjr Quick comment: Paulus did not draw a dogbone with the track doubling back on the same level - he sketched a point-to-point layout, which duck down into under table staging at the ends of the peninsulas.
I had assumed that the trains either went into a tunnel or returned via the same path.