Hello everyone,
I am getting ready to start a new layout. I had a previous one that I used the cork roadbed on top of 1/2" plywood. I used hot glue to secure the roadbed to the plywood - BIG MISTAKE!
Anyways, here are a couple questions I have for everyone:
#1 - What thickness of plywood do you recommend - if any?#2 - How thick of foam should I do? I am planning on modeling a small river thru my layout somewhere. Not really looking to do any mountains or such.#3 - Do you recommend using cork roadbed between the track and the foam? I have seen a friend's layout that did not use any roadbed. What are your toughts?
Lastly - a question on a slightly different note - I am looking to possibly do a yard that is just below my layout. Any suggestions on this? I have read that I need to do a 2-3% grade at the most. Any suggestions on how close or how far down below my layout to put the yard? I do not have a huge amount of room to go way down - probably looking for something with just enough room to get cars in and out - your suggestions? Also, do you recommend some type of lighing between the 2 levels? If anyone has any photos they can send me showing what they have done - I would greatly appreciate it!I will elaborate a little more on my layout so you can give me better advise - I have a 9' x 12' area that I am doing a layout all the way around. I am going to run everything in the middle. I am planning on at least a 2' wide platform for my mainlines (which will be a big loop) and a couple sidings and maybe a small yard on the main level. I am hoping to do my large storage yard underneath.
I am sure I am missing things that affect your answers. Please ask me - I will reply as quick as I can. I am still very new to this.
Thanks - Nic
Note that this is MY personal preference, driven by my experience and heavily influenced by my set of physical problems and local climate. It is NOT a stone tablet from Zion
Rather than a solid, or nearly so, table top, I prefer cookie cut subgrade (mine is relatively thin plywood) raised above a Westcott-style L girder structure on risers. This is especially useful if you intend to conceal a staging yard below the visible surface.
In my construction, the foam (fan-fold underlayment, about 9mm thick) IS the roadbed. My layout is in a non-climate-controlled garage in the Dessicated Desert, so cork is a non-starter. Extruded foam (sculpted to shape with a serrated-blade knife) doesn't dry up, harden and crumble.
I also use a cardstock track template, full size, between the foam and the ties of my flex track and hand-laid specialwork.
Except for the screws (driven from below) that hold the plywood to the risers, everything is stuck together with latex caulk.
One answer to the `not enough room for a grade to the hidden yard' question is a train elevator. Another is what John Armstrong defined as a `vertical turnout,' a board with one fixed end and the other capable of moving from the upper level to the lower level. Either would need about 6 linear feet of space to move a train from the visible world to the netherworld, and either should be at least partially hidden. Drawings of both kinds are found in Armstrong's Creative Layout Designs. I have no place where a vertical turnout serves my needs, but do have an elevator planned to close the loop for a loads out/empties in operation that involves a large vertical mismatch.
Hope this has been helpful.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
There are hundreds of posts on these questions and they seem to become more "religious" arguments than anything based on empirical comparative testing of construction methods, but...
I do not use Homasote. I do not use plywood. I do not use WS foam roadbed. I have used all three in the past.
I do use 2-in extruded foam on cheap shelf brackets. I do use laminated 1/2-in foam on hollow core doors. I do use cork roadbed sanded down to a lower profile. That's what's working for me right now. People's experiences will vary and what would work best for you will be partly dependent on your environment and circumstances.
hennepin98 Lastly - a question on a slightly different note - I am looking to possibly do a yard that is just below my layout. Any suggestions on this? I have read that I need to do a 2-3% grade at the most. Any suggestions on how close or how far down below my layout to put the yard? I do not have a huge amount of room to go way down - probably looking for something with just enough room to get cars in and out - your suggestions? Also, do you recommend some type of lighing between the 2 levels? If anyone has any photos they can send me showing what they have done - I would greatly appreciate it!
Lastly - a question on a slightly different note - I am looking to possibly do a yard that is just below my layout. Any suggestions on this? I have read that I need to do a 2-3% grade at the most. Any suggestions on how close or how far down below my layout to put the yard? I do not have a huge amount of room to go way down - probably looking for something with just enough room to get cars in and out - your suggestions? Also, do you recommend some type of lighing between the 2 levels? If anyone has any photos they can send me showing what they have done - I would greatly appreciate it!
You seem to indicate that your lower yard will have very little overhead clearance. You will need enough to accommodate your arm and hand for re-railing derailed equipment; also, for uncoupling if you use manual methods. And that assumes you will have enough room to lay the track in the first place-assuming you don't lay it first and then install it below the main level. There may also be times when repairs are necessary down the road. I'd give serious consideration to NOT installing a hard-to-access yard.
Dante
I have one staging yard that has little overhead clearance and NO access from the side - it's between L (actually C) girders. My answer to the problem was to build the entire yard (12 feet long, 15 inches wide) as a John Armstrong style Dehydrated Canal Lock. For maintenance or moments, the entire facility can be dropped fifteen inches. Sections can then be removed and taken to a work surface - much easier than working under benchwork, especially for someone who isn't very flexible.
Other subterranean areas can be accessed from above, under lift-off hatches, or from the side. Probable trouble areas are behind fold-down control panels (!!) Lengths of plain-jane track can be reached by unscrewing fascia panels. Two complex yard throats have been built on removable dominos - separately framed sections that can be unbolted and taken to a work bench like the parts of that droppable passenger staging yard. For the occasional , those throats have easy side access and plenty of overhead clearance.
hennepin98 I am getting ready to start a new layout. I had a previous one that I used the cork roadbed on top of 1/2" plywood. I used hot glue to secure the roadbed to the plywood - BIG MISTAKE!
I have to ask why you thought hot gluing cork roadbed was a big mistake. While it owuldn't be my choice of materials or adhesive, I don't necessarily see it as a big mistake. What went wrong? What did you not like about the result?
Starting with #3: Roadbed serves 2 purposes in model railroading - 1) simulate the raised gravel roadbed the prototype uses to support and drain water away from the track (assumes 20th Century or later); 2) reduces noise from the trains rolling on the track. Some roadbed materials do one task better than another. Obviously, you don't have to have roadbed.
Whatever roadbed you use or don't use, you have to have a method for fastening the track down. Track nails do not hold very well in foam and are difficult to drive directly into plywood. Model track spikes will bend before they go through the glue layer in plywood. A very thin layer of latex caulk has been used by many to hold the track down.
#1 and #2 - Why are you using foam? And why are you using plywood? To me, each material used should be selected for a reason that is pertinent to the layout I am building. Plywood on its own has to be thicker (typically 1/2" or better) than plywood reinforced with foam glued to it. I found 1/4" plywood glued to 1.5" foam to be more rigid than 1/2" plywood. Foam without plywood is also quite practical - 2" is commonly used.
One of the drivers in how your layout is going to work out is how you plan to support it. Shelf brackets on vertical standards do away with legs. But the brackets are going to interfere with the transition to your underneath storage yard. The Model Railroader project layout of 1972 (KR&D) used a different method to support shelves. A free-standing layout on legs placed against the wall is an equally viable possibility.
Another decision point is open grid or closed top. Open grid with everything on risers will make your underneath storage yard much more practical. The storage yard would also tend to push you in the direction of thin-shell scenery, not stacked foam.
As you can see, the underneath storage yard is a big driver in how you plan and build your layout. As pointed out, you need access during and after construction. Yet the grade into the yard also has to be accessible and reasonable. Thickness of the parts over top the yard matters a lot. Plywood and some sort of thin shell scenery are a lot thinner than layers of 2" foam.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W