I'm working on a couple LDE's for my future HO layout and I would like to know if there are products availible for some of the things I'd like to include in those LDE's.
Item number one: a 4 axle diesel switcher capable of working on a 12" radius turn. That seems like it wouldn't be too hard but all the ones I've looked at so far say 18" minimum. I'm ok with having to maybe trim some details from the sideframes or steps to get the trucks to pivot that far. If nothing is availible, has anyone modified something to work? FWIW this is for switching ore cars at PRR Whisky Island docks.
Item number two: A vertical lift bridge. Need not be fancy or functional but I don't think I can scratchbuild something like that. Single track is fine. I found the Faller Bascule bridge and will use one of those as well though it will need some modification (truss versus plate sides). Bonus is the Faller unit is functional, something the actual bridge hasn't been for decades. These are going to represent the bridges over the Cuyahoga in the Cleveland Flats. I know I've seen reference to lift bridge kits before but I believe they are discontinued at this time.
Walthers is gonna make a killing off me with the Ashland series....
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
That is a bit small on the radius. Even if you can get a switcher to negociate the turn you will still have trouble with coupling and derails even w/ 40' rolling stock. A 44 tonner may be the only choice. Body mounted couplers on short rolling stock may still give problems. I have used 15" radius with S2s and SW switchers pulling/ pushing 40' equipment with no issues. Getting down to 12" may just be asking for trouble.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
No known 4 axle diesel switcher is going to be able to take a 12 inch radius. A small 2 axle switcher such as the Bachmann 44 tonner possibly could, but finding rolling stock that can take that tight a raduis will be just as problematic as the locomotive choices.
Although others have posted differently, actual reported experiences say that 12" radius is feasible. It will take a small switcher - steam or diesel - but it will work. The EMD S or SW and Baldwin S models will make a 12" radius curve - for the most part. The Walters/Life-Like switchers in particular are known for going as sharp as 10" radius successfully. If you keep to 40ft or less overall length (both engine and cars), and at switching speeds, you will probably be successful - for the most part.
Very few manufacturers bother to test at less than 18" radius because that is the defacto standard. So you will have to do your own testing. Be prepared for a few failures. You may have to make a few modifications as you suggested. Another area to watch is coupler swing - you need to ensure the couplers swing enough not to bind or cause derailments. Longer shank couplers or truck-mounted couplers are solutions when all else fails.
The biggest problem area is going to be backing several cars on these sharp turns. Weighting to at least NMRA recommendations for the cars helps, and going even heavier - 150% of NMRA recommendations will do a lot to keep things on the rails. Sprung trucks may be preferred, and will certainly work better at heavier weights. Excellent trackwork is a given requirement.
I would proceed with your dream, knowing that there may be certain rolling stock or locomotives that won't be allowed in that area.
The old version of the Kalmbach book, Bridges and Buildings, had an article on building your own rolling lift bridge. Might be worth tracking down a copy.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
cacole No known 4 axle diesel switcher is going to be able to take a 12 inch radius. A small 2 axle switcher such as the Bachmann 44 tonner possibly could, but finding rolling stock that can take that tight a raduis will be just as problematic as the locomotive choices.
Hey, you need to actually look at a 44 tonner - it has four axles, just like the big guys.
What you need is a two-axled locomotive like this EMD:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bs36.jpg
Mark
My old MDC boxcab diesel could manage 12" on a test set up. That was running very slow. Mine was the original release with the upgrade kit applied.
Enjoy
Paul
The better question -- why design yourself into a corner with a 12" radius switching area in HO that may only be marginally reliable when shoving cars?
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
The track at the ore docks is basically 4 loops of track arranged in a large U shape. Tracks on one side of the loop for loading, the others for storing cars for loading or pickup. There won't be any actual coupling on the curves, just on the straight sections. I'm limited to a 42" wide shelf though it is 12' long, any wider would require compromises elsewhere on the layout that I'm not willingto make. Fitting 4 loops on 42" inches means a maximum 20" then 18" 16" 14" and 12" figuring that the 14" loop won't really exist since the Hullet loaders will occupy that chunk of realestate. I still need to find a diagram of how tracks fit under the loaders so I can nail down the track spacing on that side of the shelf so it may be possible to go to 13" radius but maybe not. I could also lose the inside loop but if I can make it work I would preferr it. That said 40' hoppers will basically be the only cars on these tracks and the switcher won't venture elsewhere on the railroad. Road units bringing in empty cars for loading can use the outter loops for turning. I'm not sure a 44 tonner would have the guts to do the job, well maybe in HO but not in real life.
As for bridges, I'd like one Bascule and one lifting span to complete that scene. I've already found a Bascule but no lifting span.
This company makes a lift bridge, I'm not sure if this is the type You are looking for but You might want to check it out. www.custommodelrailroads.com
Great Western Rwy fanThis company makes a lift bridge, I'm not sure if this is the type You are looking for but You might want to check it out. www.custommodelrailroads
The lift bridge is non-operational. To quote from their site "This is a non operating model. However with a little ingenuity and creativity it could be made to operate".Given that CMR is a custom layout/model builder, a little ingenuity could be an understatement. There is an article on building a semi-operating bridge on the Modular Railroading web site.
Alan
PSHelps to include the .com in a link.
Co-owner of the proposed CT River Valley RR (HO scale) http://home.comcast.net/~docinct/CTRiverValleyRR/
Good luck with that.
Even with short cars, 2" track-to-track spacing for 16" and 18" radius HO curves is a potential problem. Not to mention that the appearance will not be much like the real thing. Dealing with derailments will be interesting in those tight confines.
IMHO, the best practice of track planning with LDEs is not copying exactly what was really there, while squeezing it down to fit an arbitrary space, no matter the consequences.
To my mind, the best idea is to learn what the prototype did, then translate the function into a workable, reliable track arrangement in balance with the rest of the layout and an overall design concept.
There are always trade-offs. One key, I think, is making as few compromises as possible to reliability. I've seen this kind of thing many times and often the problem tracks quickly become dusty static displays because it's just too much trouble to have every other move derail.
It would be wise to mock it up and see if the reliability is up to your standards and if 2" track-to-track spacing is viable with 18" and 16" radius curves, let alone the tighter ones. You may find that shoving moves are very hit-and-miss (particularly of empties) because of the added friction caused by the tight curves and the angular forces generated by coupler thrust .
Byron
ruderunner Fitting 4 loops on 42" inches means a maximum 20" then 18" 16" 14" and 12" figuring that the 14" loop won't really exist since the Hullet loaders will occupy that chunk of realestate. I still need to find a diagram of how tracks fit under the loaders so I can nail down the track spacing on that side of the shelf so it may be possible to go to 13" radius but maybe not.
Fitting 4 loops on 42" inches means a maximum 20" then 18" 16" 14" and 12" figuring that the 14" loop won't really exist since the Hullet loaders will occupy that chunk of realestate. I still need to find a diagram of how tracks fit under the loaders so I can nail down the track spacing on that side of the shelf so it may be possible to go to 13" radius but maybe not.
With radii that tight, you're going to need more than 2-inch separation of tracks, something between 2.25 and 2.5 inches.
To me, the custommodelrailroads lift bridge seemed somewhat heavy. That may be only because the one to which I compare it was rather long.
The was in Corpus Christi, Texas. Removed about two years ago.
To all of those who seem to have a problem with 12 inch radius in HO, be aware that the CNJ Bronx freight house sat inside a loop of 90 foot radius track. CNJ 1000, the prototype for that MDC box cab diesel, was quite happy working there.
If the OP is looking at ore jimmies (24 feet long) or 50 ton AAR hoppers (36? feet long,) either should be reasonably comfortable on 12 inch radii.
In my own modeling, I have test-run the 16.5mm gauge Mantua 2-6-6-2 'Logger' on 300mm radius curves. The Uintah prototype (3 foot gauge) had to handle 68 degree curves, which translate into 12 inch radius in HO. Mine has no problem staying coupled to my short cars, even on the 12 inch radius test spiral. Of course, the spiral was the equivalent of a very long spiral easement. I wouldn't think of laying a curve without easements, no matter what radius I was using.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Thanks for the link to the bridge, I'll take a closer look this weekend.
As for track spacing on turns, since those are at the end of a 12' run, I have some room to move the radius centers, it's on the straights that things are tight. I'm using the 2" centers on the strights as a working number, IIRC NMRA says one can go as thight as 1.5" on straight track. I still need to find what track centers the Walthers Hullett kits are set up for, just haven't had the chance yet so I'm using 12" as a minimum radius that I'm willing to use.
I don't believe PRR used 24' ore cars though that would make things easier. From what I've seen they used regular coal hoppers, just not loaded as high due to weight. Photo evidence indicates that they used GP7/9 for switching in the 60's though I don't think anything like that could work in my space restrictions. I'm hoping somthing like an H1044, HH660, NW/SW would work and since switchers like that tend to be 30% shorter than a road switcher it is concievable that they can handle that radius
tomikawaTT To all of those who seem to have a problem with 12 inch radius in HO, be aware that the CNJ Bronx freight house sat inside a loop of 90 foot radius track.
To all of those who seem to have a problem with 12 inch radius in HO, be aware that the CNJ Bronx freight house sat inside a loop of 90 foot radius track.
And you probably also know that the prototype had to use chains to move cars sometimes, as the couplers wouldn't work with some combinations of car lengths. Also, I think the whole point of the circular trackage was to allow them to pull most of the time rather than shove.
We can always find an extreme exception. Reliability seems more attainable away from the extremes, however.
ruderunner IIRC NMRA says one can go as thight as 1.5" on straight track.
IIRC NMRA says one can go as thight as 1.5" on straight track.
Not correct. You might want to look it up.
If you decide to base a key segment of your plan on standards that others have found to be unreliable, that's your prerogative.
I hope you choose to test a mock-up first before finalizing your plan.
I have a Kato NW2 four axle which handles 10" radius curves easily. People will say it looks awful, not prototypical, etc. and they are correct. But it does work.
- Harry
I found some info on the Walthers Hullet kits that was very promising. It's set up for 4 tracks under the support arch, not 2 as I originally thought. That right there allows for a 14" minimum radius. Yes that is unprototypically tight but most model railroads have curves that are too tight. Time to try out some of my rolling stock and see what happens. And save some $$ for the NW2...
BTW the CMR lift bridge kit is almost exactly what I'm looking for, I won't need the approach bridges as the bridge I'd like to model has the towers built on the river banks. Maybe I'll use the approaches for deck bridges elsewhere on the layout.