greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Your design is probably sufficient assuming the benchwork never sees a load greater than track and structures. But an impact load (dropping something on it) or someone "crashing" into it (I have 2 small kids) could leave your railroad in shambles. You did not mention if your layout is HO or N, but a small impact on an N scale layout could really misalign your trackwork. Note that a 1x2 is really 5/8x1 5/8. I like 2x4s personally, and they are about as cheap 1x's.
The risks with 1x2's are:
1. Splitting. You will have to get quality wood and pilot drill for screws to risk splitting it.
2. Surface area. A 1x2 is really about 3/4 x 1 1/2 so you have a relatively small area to attach through. Not a problem, just be aware it is very narrow.
3. Warping. Unless you have quality wood, the 1x2 will tend to warp with changes in humidity and as it dries.
4. Sagging. Over unsupported spans greater than 24" , if there is any significant load on the 1x2's they may begin to sag.
Here is an alternative idea.
You could put a second 1x2 about a foot off the floor on the wall. Then instead of the angle and 2x2, you run the 1x2 under the ends of the joists and every 2 ft put a angled support 1x2 diagonally from the lower wall braket to the 1x2 under the joists. use an angle iron or a block of 1x2 as a screw block. That way you completely avoid having anything on the floor, the wall supports all load.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I have been using some 1x3's with a 1x2 glued to it to for the L-girder and they are quite sturdy without the bulk of the 1x4. I would be a little cautious of the ALL 1x2 construction for the same reason mentioned in the other reply; accidents do happen and that would be a shame to lose a model because of taking a short cut that could have been prevented. Only you know what the odds of anything happening are.
I also use 1/4" birch or luan plywood for gussets and they make a tremendous difference in stiffining a frame. Just make sure you use a lot of carpenters wood glue.
good luck with your layout,
Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
trust me. decades of model railroading and several layouts. nothing smaller than 1x3 for the vertical piece. 1x2 on top of 1x3 is ok. otherwise it will come back to haunt you.
grizlump
Why not just use open grid framework, made-up from 1"x2"s? Use good-quality wood (I prefer #1 or "Select" pine) and space the crossmembers at 16"o/c. Use screws to attach it to the wall studs, and support it as suggested by dehusman, or on shelf brackets. This is the method which I intend to use for the second level of my layout, although I'll be covering the top surface with 3/8" sheathing plywood.
Wayne
I can see it now.. you shaking your head after a piece of wood splits, leaving your layout on the floor, asking yourself, "Now, why was it I didn't go with 1x4??" I don't think benchwork is anyplace to scrimp.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
If you want to keep it simple then just use metal shelf brackets, you can get heavy duty ones that are two feet deep.
The major problem with wood in general, and with small cross-section wood in particular, is its tendency to react to changing humidity. A perfectly straight piece can become a corkscrew or a compound curve as it dries or soaks up moisture.
Having the rear L girder screwed to the wall (presumably through the drywall into the studs behind it) will mitigate that problem. The aluminum L angle at the front will not react to humidity, and should be adequate unless you plan to stable rodeo bulls in your layout room. The 1 x 2 girder cap will have most of its tendency to deform controlled by the aluminum angle. That leaves the joists - 1 x 2 wood, with a maximum unsupported length of 16 inches (assuming a 5 inch overhang from the outer edge of the front girder cap.) The unsupported outer end might develop a twist, or the entire joist might develop a curve. However, neither should be earth shattering.
Installing a fascia strip of some kind deep enough to hide the joist ends and come up to the level of the adjacent landscape would go a long way toward preventing damage due to accidental bumps. All screw holes should be pre-drilled with a counterbore of appropriate size - thereby minimizing the possibility of splitting.
If the cookie-cut plywood is mounted on short risers as required by 'pure' Westcott L-girder construction, the 1.5 inch joist height is quite adequate for attaching such risers. If the tops of the rsers are simply glued to the underside of the subgrade they can be broken away easily if changing the location of risers (or joists) ever becomes necessary.
The major advantages of L girder construction over traditional open-frame construction are:
My own shelves are narrower (450mm) and constructed of steel - steel studs and steel shelf supports, cantilevered from the wall. Except for cookie-cut plywood subgrade I avoid wood products, since my layout is in a non-climate controlled garage in the Dessicated Desert. If the wood I have to use exhibits undesired reactions to the extremely low humidity I beat it into submission with steel angle stock.
Perhaps I shouldn't use the term 'shelf' since there are three separate track levels and the total depth from the bottom of the lowest frame member to the highest rails is on the order of 14 inches - with scenery that will rise well above that.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - on steel stud C acts like L girder benchwork)
Lot of advice both pro and con here. Although 1x2s may be adequate (of course using very good select pine), you open yourself up to many potential problems. I would box the frame and attach the rear 1x directly to the stud wall. There is really no need for the "L" ledger. Of coarse you would need to shim as you attach, have never seen a straight wall. The other problem would be if a sw machine landed at the mid supporting section (girder). If this happens you will need some ofset linkage to gain sw motor clearance.
The 1 1/2" in open grid does pose for many issues. Why not at least consider 1x3s. These can be easily ripped from 1x6 pine.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
bogp40 Lot of advice both pro and con here. Although 1x2s may be adequate (of course using very good select pine), you open yourself up to many potential problems. I would box the frame and attach the rear 1x directly to the stud wall. There is really no need for the "L" ledger. Of coarse you would need to shim as you attach, have never seen a straight wall. The other problem would be if a sw machine landed at the mid supporting section (girder). If this happens you will need some ofset linkage to gain sw motor clearance. The 1 1/2" in open grid does pose for many issues. Why not at least consider 1x3s. These can be easily ripped from 1x6 pine.
If you build a box frame, you have to get mechanically inventive with switch machine linkages.
If you're building with L girders, you just unscrew and move the joist.
Unless you're a descendant of Rube Goldberg, the choice is a no-brainer.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - on steel benchwork)
thank you all for all the comments.
STEELERSFANBut an impact load ... or someone "crashing" into it ... could leave your railroad in shambles.
dehusman3. Warping. Unless you have quality wood, the 1x2 will tend to warp with changes in humidity and as it dries.
farrellaaI also use 1/4" birch or luan plywood for gussets and they make a tremendous difference in stiffining a frame.
Medina1128I can see it now.. you shaking your head after a piece of wood splits, leaving your layout on the floor, ...
bogp40There is really no need for the "L" ledger.
bogp40Why not at least consider 1x3s. These can be easily ripped from 1x6 pine.
tomikawaTTIf you build a box frame, you have to get mechanically inventive with switch machine linkages. If you're building with L girders, you just unscrew and move the joist. ... the choice is a no-brainer.
I myself feel 1x2 is just too small or light weight for bench work but if your set on using I would suggest you don't make your bench work out of dimensional lumber but rather cutting 2" wide strips out of 5/8" birch plywood. It's hard enough to find a straight 1x4 or 2x4 in the big box stores but when it comes to 1x2 for forget it. You'll go through the whole stack and come up with maybe 5 good pieces.if you break down the price per piece vs the better quality you'll be getting with the plywood you'll probably see your spending less money and getting a better piece of wood. You may also want to consider cantilevering the brackets at a 45 degree angle they will prove to be much stronger then the 90 degrees your showing.
gregc dehusman3. Warping. Unless you have quality wood, the 1x2 will tend to warp with changes in humidity and as it dries.Isn't any size lumber likley to warp? Would painting/sealing it minimizing warping?
Yes any wood can warp, but 1x2's are often lower quality since they are mostly used for furring strips, and lower quality wood warps more than higher quality wood. "Sealing" wood just slows the warping,
I guess my question is why are you using 1x2's in the first place? Your stated goal was to keep things simple This seems to be an awful lot of effort to "keep things simple". A good quality 1x2 will be about as expensive as a good quality 1x4. Why screw around cutting 1x6's to get 1x3's when you can just use a 1x4 off the shelf? Unless there is some need for a low cross section benchwork (such as the upper deck of a 2 level layout) or some unique weight constraint, what is the advantage in simplicity by using 1x2's?
Just received back issues of MR from 1963. the September issue just happens to include Linn Wescott's article on "L-girder framework" (7 pages, 12 figures, 5 photos and no ads). From the article
Joists on my pike are 1x2's at places where girders are no more than 30" apart and where overhang beyond the joist ends is up to 9". For wider L-girder spacing or greater extension I used 1x3's or 1x4's.
Maybe the quality of wood in 1963 was better than it is today.
When I erected my current layout nearly four years ago, I used 1X4 clear spruce. Where I needed simple and short risers, or joists, or diagonals, I ripped the lumber into 1X2's. Worked very well.
For rigidity, for outer frames, for main joists, I used either the 1X4 or L-girder made from 1X4 with ripped halves for the other component. They have proved, those L-Girders, to be very stable and tough.
But, for my legs/supports for all four frames, they are simply 1X2 made into an L-girder. They are plenty strong, even at 50+ inches, because I also used lengths of 1X2 for diagonal bracing.
As far as I am concerned, any layout on which you don't intend to pound nails, and I do mean "on" (as in, stepping up and kneeling on...) can be supported securely with proper wall anchors, good quality and dimensionally appropriate fasterners, and a judicious use of engineered braces and frames using 1X2 of good quality and condition. If your 8 year old son will be doing chins on the outer frame members, add another brace or three.
1X2's are just fine. Yuh gotsta know how to use 'em. With any milled lumber, you should also be cognizant of the need for some environmental control in the space. If you choose to use wood, you really should have some sort of contingency to control excessive humidity changes up or down. If you spend $600 on a layout bench meant to provide a platform for $300 worth of scenery, $200 worth of track, $200 worth of turnouts of various descriptions, $150 worth of switch machines, $1000 worth of engines, and structures and trailing rolling stock worth another $1200, wouldn't a $200 dehumidifier be a sound investment? It went through my mind.
-Crandell
My current benchwork is 1x4 open grid perimeter with 1x2 joists, fastened to the perimeter with two countersunk #8 screws at each end
, and carpenters glue on every third joist.
There are gussets at each corner, and on both sides of every fourth joist.
I sealed all the lumber with floor grade poly, and have two dehumidifiers that keep a constant 60% level in the basement, which is dry to start with, the walls having been sealed twice over.
Right now it is a table top layout, with future expansion possibilities if I ever get my train room back, and it is very strong. (40" x 80" n scale).
One of the reasons for the ix4 perimeters is thatthe leg work is attached to them and 1x2 is to small for that, but the 1x2 joists are more than adequate.
My experience is a little different. Decent 1x2s glued into an L configuration (I use a few screws to clamp the 1x2s together until glue dries) are an outstanding, strong girder for up to an 8ft span (if only end supported, I would limit to 6ft span). The L configuration prevents warping in either axis, if the pieces were straight to begin with. I ALWAYS drill for any screws to avoid splitting or stripping.
The glued L configuration is the key to strength at light weight, using plywood as thin as 5mm (less than 1/4") in modules. Same is true for foam core module construction.
Fred W
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon in HO and HOn3, where it's always 1900....
This thread is 13 years old, but Greg is still active in the forum.
WhaJaUse Greg?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I used a combination of 1"x2"s and 1"x4"s for the partial upper level of my layout, but added welded-together angle-iron, bolted to the wall studs, to help support the layout, which was covered by plywood.
Here's a couple views of the supports...
...while this one has two support arms at an outside corner of the layout...
While the majority of the partial upper level is just a couple feet deep, the area shown below has a depth of 38" (part of it to allow a fairly wide curve), and also allow enough room for a very small town...
Once the framework and plywood was in place, and the sweeping curved track added, I had to use a stepladder to get onto the layout, in order to paint the rails...
...and luckily, no one was around to take a picture of an old goat laying atop the layout, while painting the sides of the rail (both sides...even though the backside of the rails will never be seen).