New to the Forum

[Grant_F]

Hi Guys Im new to this forum, just planning my HO scale layout and will start building it shortly. Im going to start building a 4x8 layout as unfortunately thats all the space i have. Im going to be basing the model with modern diesel engines and more of a freight rolling stock layout. i will be running dcc, but most likely just for the trains, i need to keep it cost effective so things like switches and stuff i will just keep manual for now.

[ratled]

Welcome to the forum!  

Two must reads for you based on your post -

http://www.chipengelmann.com/trains/Beginner/BeginnersGuide01.html

And this one

http://layoutvision.com/id28.html

ratled

[tcf511]

Welcome to the forum grant. There are a lot of great people here who are more than willing to share their knowledge. Do you have a specific railroad in mind yet?

[Grant_F]

thanks for welcoming me guys, im going to make up my own plan i think , not going to model an existing railroad, i will have to stick to a 4x8 layout as space is very tight, i only plan on running 1 or 2 small trains and maybe a few extra engines around

[Paulus Jas]

 hi Grant,

Grant_F

i only plan on running 1 or 2 small trains and maybe a few extra engines around

 

Impossible to run two trains at a time on a small pike like yours. Or do you mean: just let them roll over a double track mainline. Space mouse mentioned the IQ of Sponge BOB. Did you really read the Chip Engelmann's side?

Problem is you say you are a newbie, but at the same time you don't seem very eager to learn or accept a thing or two.

Next to this posting I see two modern engines pulling a modern train (add by standard Hobby Supply), this takes radii way to big for your 8x4. Normaly the radius you need is 3 times the length of the longest car, 10" long engines and 12" long modern freight cars can't be run on your empire without problems: no easy (un)coupling and frequent derailments when pushing your trains. Modern trains ain't small.

If you really had courage you would have came up with a drawing of your room. Did you really read the lines of Byron Henderson?

These words were not very friendly,  but Byron asked you to contact him at once if you want an alternative for your 8x4. Did you?

Try to accept you can learn a thing or two on this forum and give other people a chance to look at alternatives. And then take your decission.

Grant_F

not going to model an existing railroad

This is even more difficult then modeling a real railroad, you have to find out every thing yourself.

have fun, and welcome anyhow

Paul

 

 

[Aralai]

Very true about modern engines and rolling stock. I have just got back into the hobby after 30 years and I can tell you that one of my biggest issues is the length of cars and radii of track in a limited space. Think about going with 1950's - 1970's era and smaller cars and engines - you will find it much easier. Alternatively 'N' gauge will give you more flexibility. I don't like 'N' personally but a lot of people are going that route. Welcome from another relative newbie :)

[Grant_F]

i have HO rolling stock, engines, controllers, and track already. when it comes to trains i will have 2 main tracks going around with small sidings in the inside of the layout. i dont plan on running two engines per train load or too many cars, this is just for a hobby not a life like copy of anything.

[secondhandmodeler]

Welcome to the forum.  Don't worry about making mistakes and changing your mind.  Just don't be upset about purchasing things that you don't end up using. Ask me how I know!  If you don't come up with a good plan, try using one from Chip's website here.  There were a few contests on this forum that produced some decent layouts as far as 4x8's go.  I know everyone will try to save you from the great downfalls of the 'sacred sheet', but almost everyone started there.  I didn't know what I wanted to build until I built one. You probably won't either.   I hope you enjoy your new hobby!

[steinjr]

Paulus Jas

If you really had courage you would have came up with a drawing of your room. Did you really read the lines of Byron Henderson?

 Paulus - could you please try to limit your comments to be about track plans, and not about your impressions of other poster's personal qualities? It is not very productive (or nice) when you go around more or less accusing other people of being cowards.

 Yeah - Grant F's second post shows no obvious sign of him actually having read (and understood) the point Byron Henderson made on 4x8 layouts being relatively big space hogs in a smaller room. But that is no reason for you to call him (in effect) a coward.

 Grant -

 A 4x8 certainly can be done. There are thousands of 4x8 designs. And they work okay if the space you have available is a bedroom sized corner of a bigger room (e.g. a basement den or a large living room).

 But if you truly have very little space available, some other (and quite possibly less intuitive) footprints can also work, and coexist better with other uses of the room (e.g. for storage).

 A handful of examples:

 6.5 x 11.5 foot basement room (way too small for the 8 foot minimum width needed for access to both sides of a 4x8 foot layout):
 

 

 Room still can be used for other purposes, since it has a nice wide space in the center of the room, and room for shelves above and below the layout:

 Here is a dogbone shaped plan for a hallway, so all access is from one side (doesn't need an aisle on the backside for access, saves space):

  

 Here is partly freestanding donut style layout for a weird shaped alcove off a bigger room:

  Here is a layout which does not have continuous run, but is intended for switching:

 

 These are just four more or less picked at random alternatives to a 4x8 island style layout. There are many other possible layout shapes and sizes.

 Common to them all is that they are based on "seeing the space, not the table" - ie looking at what space is actually available in a given room, and then exploring some options. 

 That is not a function of wanting a "prototype based" layout instead of "just a hobby". It is a matter of getting as much fun as you can from a small available layout space.

 Good luck with your layout, no matter what you decide to build and no matter how you decide to approach the task of figuring out what to do.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[Grant_F]

Thanks Stein I need to stick with a 4x8 layout, because i need to keep it portable and on wheels so it cant be moved around when needed, i have a large 12x20 workshop in my basement where it will be built but i do have a large amount of wood working machines so i need to move the train table around when needed. unfortunetly the wife and i have talked this over lol and thats about the extent of space available

[cuyama]

If you can fit a 4X8 on wheels, you can fit at least a 5X8 on wheels. In fact, 5X8, 5X9, 5X10, etc. all make better layouts than the HO 4X8 because they allow a broader radius -- especially if you want two orbiting ovals. And it seems like they'll fit just as well into your space.

The broader radius is especially helpful if you want to run models of more-modern trains, as you say you do. These models tend to be larger and run poorly on the 18-19" radius that's necessary for the inner oval of a double track HO 4X8.

A 5X8 is not hard to build and would be an improvement. Just cut the 4X8 sheet into two pieces and add a Handy Panel (or have the lumber yard cut the 4X8 sheet).

People are telling you this because they've seen the results of trying to shoehorn too much into a 4X8. If you have woodworking expertise, surely you can go beyond an uncut sheet of plywood on sawhorses.

Here's a double-track 4X8. It fits, but the curves are tight. It would be much better built as a 5X9 and would probably result in a much a more satisfying experience for you in the long run.

Best of luck.

[steinjr]

Grant_F

Thanks Stein I need to stick with a 4x8 layout, because i need to keep it portable and on wheels so it cant be moved around when needed, i have a large 12x20 workshop in my basement where it will be built but i do have a large amount of wood working machines so i need to move the train table around when needed. unfortunetly the wife and i have talked this over lol and thats about the extent of space available

 Fair enough. Next question is era and theme. Unfortunately, as we move forward in time, engines and railroad cars get bigger in size. Modern trains are long, are pulled by long engines and have long cars. Which will tend to look cramped on a 4x8 layout.

 It certainly is possible to have two parallel ovals running around a layout, so two trains can run side by side, but it isn't necessarily easy to pull it off in a nice looking way.

 A reasonably decent 4x8 track plan is the "Soo's Red Wing Division" from the December 1994 Model Railroader. With some improvements by layout designer Byron Henderson, it looks like this:

http://www.layoutvision.com/id49.html

 Here is another 4x8 design, from forum poster RRTrainMan:

 

Here is a 5x9 foot design (which is also a size that can be wrestled into a corner):

 There are many more options. It may be e.g. that a shelf layout still would work well in your room - at chest height, so it could fit above e.g. a work bench, and below storage shelves, maybe even built as a cabinet with roll down dust proof doors that can be closed before you start working on things that will give quite a bit of dust in the room.

 It probably still would be a good idea to create a drawing of your room, to explore various options. But a 4x8 (or better a 5x9) is not necessarily a horrible idea for moveable layout in a bigger room.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[ratled]

You might want to look at the Beer Line that started in the Jan 09 Model Railroader.  It's 4 x 12 but modular so you should be able to put it just about anywhere in that basment.  It will give you 10 times more than 4 x 8. Widen it's stance to 5 x 12 and you really got something going.   If you are a MR subscriber you can see the track plan here

http://www.trains.com/mrr/default.aspx?c=a&id=2849

 

ratled

[rogerhensley]

And just for good measure, you might want to take a look at the NMRA Beginner's website.

http://www.nmra.com/beginner/

 

[kain687]

that was vary nicely put and what you had to say is all vary true

[HaroldA]

Welcome to the forum!!  You are going to find some great people with tons of knowledge here - it has saved my behind more than once.  And there are also some folks with great opinions about your questions - some positive and some not so - but they all give a personal perspective to model railroading which is always interesting.  When I started it was on a 4x8 - that was a long time ago - and over the years I 'graduated' to bigger layouts until today mine takes up major space in the basement - and I am thinking of expanding it again.  With every change I have learned a great deal and these Forums have been very helpful.  My opening advice is have fun - it's what keeps me going.

[djpereira]

Hi Stein, those are some great layouts you have posted there. The first one 11.5 x 6.5 has got me really interested as that is just the right amount of space i have.12x6 to be exact. The only thing is is i have a 15" turntable which i want to use along with a roundhouse with about 4 stalls. Think you could give me some ideas where i could place it? i was thinking of placing it on the top right hand corner and removing the building over there. Thanks.

 

[Paulus Jas]

hi Grant

Grant_F

i have a large 12x20 workshop in my basement where it will be built but i do have a large amount of wood working machines so i need to move the train table around when needed.

 

Do I read you well?

You have a large basement and only a part of the basement is your 12x 20 workshop.

You want your pike to be "portable" or moveable to be able to work on it in your workshop and enjoy it as a modelrailroad in another room. So for easy moving your modelrailroad has to be small. 

Or do you want to move your pike around in your workshop only? My mother's family had a piano building business and the woodworking rooms and the finishing rooms (painting etc) were kept very apart, due to severe dust problems.

As you have noticed you are getting very different responses. Chip Engelsmann, Byron Henderson and Stein (me too) are the types that may think over stuff to much. Others just start building and change what they don't like. My local hobby shop owner told me lots of guy's are lost for the hobby because they do not understand that building a nice modelrailroad is more then shaking some boxes. I still remember my first thoughts after reading Track Planning for Realistic Operation and the german publication "Anlagen Fibel" : it is just like class, it is almost science. Byron Henderson (Cuyama) more or less invited you to come up with a plan:  "but see the room first".  Coming up with a plan takes tmho a lot of courage. It may give strangers a chance to shoot; in reality all posters are willing to help you. They provided me with a lot of new idea's and kept my thinking straight.

A nice modelrailroad is not only good looking, it should also be nice running trains on it. The difference between "just running some trains" and "realistic operation" is huge. Adding realistic operation later is often impossible, good planning can be rewarding.

BTW you never mentioned the scale you want to model in.

BTW did you ever consider building a couple of modules or shelves; they can be easily stored and put up together, and away from the dust they form a great pike to build and to operate. 

Have fun
Paul 

 

[steinjr]

djpereira

The first one 11.5 x 6.5 has got me really interested as that is just the right amount of space i have.12x6 to be exact. The only thing is is i have a 15" turntable which i want to use along with a roundhouse with about 4 stalls. Think you could give me some ideas where i could place it?

 

 Hmmm - a 15" diameter roundtable is fairly big in a 6 x 12 foot room. With just the turntable and a three stall Walther's Modern type Roundhouse, we are talking about something like 20 x 45 inches, plus whatever you need for the tracks leading to the turntable, a coal tower, a water tank or water column, maybe a sand tower and an ash pit.

 I don't think I would have put it into a corner on the outside of the main loop - I think I either would have tried to put it inside the loop on one of the two short ends, or on a peninsula jutting into the room. 

 If I was going to try to squeeze something like that into my room, I would probably have tried to put it on in the peninsula sticking into the room to the left of the door (instead of the barge terminal scene), and maybe have made the peninsula bigger.

 But I have no idea what theme and periode and location you are trying to model. How about you starting  a new thread, if you want to explore some ideas for your layout, instead of use hijacking this thread ?

 Smile,
 Stein

 

 

[trainman251]

What program were these built in?

[fwright]

trainman251

What program were these built in?

I believe Stein used XtrkCad, a free-ware track planning program that runs on Linux, Windows, and some versions of Macintosh.  Stein is no longer with us to answer.

I'm not sure what software Byron uses - he is a professional layout designer.

Fred W

[cuyama]

trainman251

What program were these built in?

Our late friend Stein used XTrackCAD. (As Fred noted). I use 3rd PlanIt.

Of course, CAD is not necessary to design a plan for oneself.

Byron

[trainman251]

Very sorry to hear that. I ended up recreating it in Anyrail. I hope to build the 4x8. I believe it was from RRTrainMan