Still somewhat similar as before..1930's small town logging. Small engines, small freight cars, small pass. cars.
The 4% grade is already in place with the track down all the way to just before the over/under by tunnels. Then I have layed the outer loop around the mill to the turnout entering town. My questions are concering the mill tracks and the tracks through town.(Middle Section) I want a lumber dealer, furniture shop, maybe a small "commercialized moonshine distillery", team track. There will be a few off-line places also...Next to the mill will be 2 tracks for in/out's. Third track would be pulpwood, ash loading, and the fourth a small engine house for lumber mill shay extra #1. A small freight house/passenger platform may be included also. Tunnels A and B lead to staging tracks "east/west" under the elevated section on the left side. Let me know what you think
I think your mill setup will work nicely. IMO the town in the middle section has too much track. You have 3 run arounds for a town serving 3 industries and a team track. The space for the buildings is very tight. I think you would be better off running the mainline through the center with passing track and then hang 3 or 4 spurs off that for your industries and team track. Also, since you have a point to loop track plan, you should have a way to turn the locomotive at the point end on the left. A run around there would also help unless running back down the main to the passing siding for run arounds is an operating feature.
Enjoy
Paul
IRONROOSTERIMO the town in the middle section has too much track. You have 3 run arounds for a town serving 3 industries and a team track. The space for the buildings is very tight. I think you would be better off running the mainline through the center with passing track and then hang 3 or 4 spurs off that for your industries and team track.
IMO the town in the middle section has too much track. You have 3 run arounds for a town serving 3 industries and a team track. The space for the buildings is very tight. I think you would be better off running the mainline through the center with passing track and then hang 3 or 4 spurs off that for your industries and team track.
Maybe something roughly along these lines:
I have tried to provide for a mix of switching challenges - two industries on one track in one place, a switchback to reach another industry in another place, hopefully without making it too cramped.
You might feel that there is a lot of wasted space in the middle of the town, but I have tried to do two things here:create room for roads and access to buildings, and arrange industries so industries closer to the aisle doesn't block the view of and access to industries further back towards the backdrop.
The spur beyond the tracks near point A is a temporary storage spur - always nice to have a little work space to stash a few inbound or outbound cars while you work the town (or to spot overflow cars, which will be respotted at the correct industry by the next train).
Smile, Stein
Hi mike,
all action seems to take place in one station. I don't know if there is a wall on the right side of your pike; but if not, you can develop the log-dump siding into a second station. Also the mill complex could be served from there; even with a wall along the right side.
I second the opinions of the other respondents. But, on the left lobe is a very small station with a short passing siding. This siding can be used for the logging operation on the far west side too, especially if you flip the siding to the far west end of that lobe. Or do you want two different scenes here? That western lobe can be made 4' 6" longer. At the cost of a one foot smaller eastern lobe and a 30" entrance aisle. So you can have almost 10 feet length here; a nice addition.
BTW the aisle to the east needs some extra inches as well. Accepting Stein's proposal for Logville also means your central aisle will become half a foot wider at the right and a full foot to the left.
Keep smiling and have fun
Paulus JasI second the opinions of the other respondents. But, on the left lobe is a very small station with a short passing siding. This siding can be used for the logging operation on the far west side too, especially if you flip the siding to the far west end of that lobe. Or do you want two different scenes here? That western lobe can be made 4' 6" longer. At the cost of a one foot smaller eastern lobe and a 30" entrance aisle. So you can have almost 10 feet length here; a nice addition. BTW the aisle to the east needs some extra inches as well. Accepting Stein's proposal for Logville also means your central aisle will become half a foot wider at the right and a full foot to the left.
We've been down that way several times before, with quite a few people recommending changes in benchwork shape.
But Mike (MPRR), for some reason I don't understand, but which is none of my business anyways, doesn't want to change his benchwork shape.
Walls along top and right side.
Last couple of threads about mprr's layout. Unfortunately, he, like quite a few people, have the habit of posting uncompressed pictures, and then (probably) occationally having to remove old pictures from photobucket to get more space, so his old posts are full of links to pictures that aren't there anymore.
Still - here is some more background on his layout:
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/127217.aspx
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/140044/1563516.aspx
Paulus Jas We've been down that way several times before, with quite a few people recommending changes in benchwork shape. But Mike (MPRR), for some reason I don't understand, but which is none of my business anyways, doesn't want to change his benchwork shape. Walls along top and right side. Last couple of threads about mprr's layout. Unfortunately, he, like quite a few people, have the habit of posting uncompressed pictures, and then (probably) occationally having to remove old pictures from photobucket to get more space, so his old posts are full of links to pictures that aren't there anymore. Still - here is some more background on his layout: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/127217.aspx http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/140044/1563516.aspx Smile,Stein
Smile,Stein
I'm not sure what you mean by uncompressed photos. I only have about 50 pics in photobucket, and have never had to delete any. I just copy and paste the photo IRL like Ive been taught from here...
I've been unwilling to compromise about benchwork All of the tools used to make the bench are not at my disposal anymore... And besides, this bench fits in my alotted space good, for just me to operate alone.
There is only a wall along the top.
So.. a passing siding through town?? On the wall side or isle side?
Should the spurs come off the siding? And to which direction?
MPRR I've been unwilling to compromise about benchwork All of the tools used to make the bench are not at my disposal anymore... And besides, this bench fits in my alotted space good, for just me to operate alone.
I was just trying to explain to Paul that you are not willing to change your bench work shape, so it is a waste of time to make recommendations to you that involves changing bench work shape.
And as I said, while I still don't understand the rationale behind your decision to not change your bench work (since saws and screwdrivers normally are easily available pretty much anywhere at not very high cost), it doesn't matter - it is your layout and you do as you like with it.
If the layout shape (including the narrow channel on the right) works for you, it works for you.
MPRR I only have about 50 pics in photobucket, and have never had to delete any. I just copy and paste the photo IRL like Ive been taught from here...
The picture in your current thread has the following URL:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm196/patterson35/layoutnew9-26-09.jpg
I don't know why (deleted to save space was pure and idle guesswork on my behalf), but e.g. the following pictures (from earlier layout planning posts by you), apparently no longer are available:http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm196/patterson35/layoutwithtrackandtown.jpghttp://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm196/patterson35/newlayoutwithmill3.jpghttp://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm196/patterson35/garagekayout1.jpg
Again, it doesn't really matter why these old plans are gone - it just is a little annoying that one cannot just look up and compare old drawings with new drawings, so one is forced to try to remember more from earlier discussions, if one wants to take the whole situation into account.
MPRRSo.. a passing siding through town?? On the wall side or isle side? Should the spurs come off the siding? And to which direction?
Matter of taste.
I tried several ways and ended up liking having the siding towards the rear (wall side) better than having the siding towards the front - it made the puzzle pieces fit better. Some of my considerations while trying to locate spurs in various ways:
The main consideration was to maximize the length of the double ended siding - that double ended siding is the key to all switching in town.
To maximize the length of the double ended siding, I wanted any turnouts off the main to other spurs to branch off in the part of the main that is between the turnouts to the double ended siding, instead of branching off the main to the right or left of the turnouts to the double ended siding.
Also, for variety's sake, I wanted to run one track off the end of the double ended siding, and one turnout branching off from the siding itself. The mainline curve sharply downwards both to the right and the left of the town.
If the double ended siding is on the inside of the curve (ie below the main), either the siding will have to be shorter, or a spur coming off the end of the siding will have to shorter, or a siding coming off the end of the siding will have to be curved to fit inside the curve of the main.
For aesthetical and reach reasons, I wanted the industries in the scene placed in such a way that the front industries were on the extreme left and extreme right of the scene, while the rear industries were more towards the middle of the scene.
At the same time, also for aesthetical reasons, I wanted to locate the depot along the main, not along the siding, as that just looks more prototypical to me.
I preferably did not want to have turnouts right in front of the depot. Also, I also wanted to have room for a road crossing over the tracks next to the depot - preferably one that didn't cross any turnouts.
I tried locating the depot between the main and the siding, but didn't feel I got that to work very well visually the way I drew the plans - probably would have worked better if I had used Y turnouts at both ends of the siding, so the siding had curved one way and the main had curved the other way around the depot, without the curves getting so sharp that it negatively affects switching.
Also, if I remember correctly, the tracks towards the left (A and B) duck into underground staging, while the track towards the right is open and visible main - I wanted to locate spurs in such a way that in those cases where you need to use the main to switch the spurs, you would use the main towards the right for switching.
With the two sidings branching off the main below the main branching off towards the left, all switching moves can be done by an engine pulling (or pushing) cars towards the right and then backing in (or pulling forward) towards the left, without having to pull cars left into hidden staging and then back into spurs towards the right.
I left room for one engine length plus a little padding on the main to the left of the double ended siding, to help make runaround moves with the engine without having to take the engine into hidden staging to do a runaround move.
But things can be moved around in any which way you like - arranging town tracks in a freelanced town is mainly a matter of what looks and feels right to you.
Well after carefully reading through all of your considerations, I now can understand why and where to place places in town. I agree with the idea of breaking up industries in a way that they are not overlapping in town. (front to back) Thank you for your help in helping me understand a few things. I sometimes have a problem imagining where the train comes and goes when there is nothing there.. And where it should go to make ops more realistic and well, easier.
About those earlier pics in photobucket, I must have deleated those after dismissing them and staring new... I would come up with a plan, arrange the tracks out on the layout, and not like what I saw... Then I'd mess around a while with the tracks, placing sidings here and there, and industries here and there, and I just couldn't get it right... So I'd go back on the computer and start new.... Then I'd get frustrated and give up a while to let my imagination (what little there is) to clear.
The narrow channel on the right does work for me. I stand in it all the time and have absolutly no problems.. Obviously no swinging elbows when in there, but no big deal.
'I second the opinions of the other respondents. But, on the left lobe is a very small station with a short passing siding. This siding can be used for the logging operation on the far west side too, especially if you flip the siding to the far west end of that lobe. Or do you want two different scenes here? That western lobe can be made 4' 6" longer. At the cost of a one foot smaller eastern lobe and a 30" entrance aisle. So you can have almost 10 feet length here; a nice addition.' -Paul
I'm not sure I uderstand this paragraph... The western side is meant to be logging operations, and a camp. I was thinking of putting a divider there to split the scene into two. I really don't have that side of the plan set yet, just messing with different placements. Any ideas for some trackage plans for log loading sites, and logging camp?That would be cool, but I'm not really too concerned about that side yet..
Thanks for all your opinions.
MPRRWell after carefully reading through all of your considerations, I now can understand why and where to place places in town. I agree with the idea of breaking up industries in a way that they are not overlapping in town. (front to back) Thank you for your help in helping me understand a few things. I sometimes have a problem imagining where the train comes and goes when there is nothing there.. And where it should go to make ops more realistic and well, easier.
Well, just remember that it not a given that what I have sketched is the look and feel you are going for.
My area of modeling interest is the upper mid-west, so I tend to think in terms of pictures I have seen of towns in Minnesota and surrounding states when I think small town.
I had a quick google around for historic aerial pictures of New Hampshire small town RR stations, found this collection of colored postcards showing New Hampshire RR stations:
http://www.lightlink.com/sglap3/newhampshire/colpostarchrev.html
Here is a couple of New Hampshire RR stations from that collection:
Lakeport, NH:
Alton Bay, NH:
Smile, Stein, heading out to take my train into town for work
Awesome link stien, thanks.
MPRRAwesome link stien, thanks.
You are welcome.
Btw - in Model Railroad Planning 2000 there are two articles that might be interesting for you - one describing the prototype town of Peterboro, NH, and one layout article by Ian Rice putting in a very nice little H0 scale town with varied switching in about 15 feet of length.
hi
you did not understand what i meant so I have drawn it for you. The scenes are more seperated and not all the action is in Logville Central.
I understood you finished your benchwork allready. Consider all the years you have a nicer layout against the troubles of a little change.
Your choices, your pike
Have fun and keep smiling
Just a quick comment...
Paul's suggestion is spot on. Sometimes, you only really need a bit of a scenic break to separate scenes. The river on the right lobe and the divider on the left lobe will greatly enhance your eyes' ability to separate the scenes and create a scence of distance, compared to the way you have it drawn.
One other comment. With dogbone layouts, the skinny part of the layout often can be a problem. Operationally, it is quite a distance from the the other scene that dominates that portion of the benchwork, but competes for attention nevertheless. You might consider concealing the entire back part of the mainline there, maybe with a tunnnel, since it doesn't really seem to do much other than create distance and provide a way for the trains to get from lobe to lobe.
- Douglas
Doughless Just a quick comment... Paul's suggestion is spot on. Sometimes, you only really need a bit of a scenic break to separate scenes. The river on the right lobe and the divider on the left lobe will greatly enhance your eyes' ability to separate the scenes and create a scence of distance, compared to the way you have it drawn. One other comment. With dogbone layouts, the skinny part of the layout often can be a problem. Operationally, it is quite a distance from the the other scene that dominates that portion of the benchwork, but competes for attention nevertheless. You might consider concealing the entire back part of the mainline there, maybe with a tunnnel, since it doesn't really seem to do much other than create distance and provide a way for the trains to get from lobe to lobe.
I agree also... Dividing the scenes are what I had in mind. I just wasn't sure how to accomplish this feat.
The track along the back will be on a grade, and I didn't want it to pass through the scene twice. So I figured I would have either building flats, or scenery to conceal this portion on track. The track will emerge on the left and right lobe. Or, the bottom and top of hill.
Paulus Jas You did not understand what i meant so I have drawn it for you. The scenes are more seperated and not all the action is in Logville Central.
You did not understand what i meant so I have drawn it for you. The scenes are more seperated and not all the action is in Logville Central.
Nice proposal - I like it.
But I suspect that Mike did understand your point, since people have made similar points to him before.He just does not want to change his benchwork.
Last time around, I proposed a similar concept to him - (bench work changes/moving scenes apart - but back then Mike's main design goals included switchbacks on the way to the logging camps and a yard plus engine house in town):
In the sketch above, the dashed line is hidden tracks leading into staging, and the town functions as a junction - some trains come from staging to the town or runs from the town to staging, some trains goes from the logging camps to the mill, or from the mill to the town. Thick black line down the left peninsula is a divider.
But I figure that if this benchwork shape is holy to Mike, then that's his decision, and we'll just have to work within that framework:
Hmm - of course - Paul's suggestion could be done without changes to the existing benchwork - essentially just an add-on to the left peninsula, and some scenic changes - like having the tracks to the mill branch off from the right side of the right peninsula instead of the left side.
Just adding on stuff means that Mike won't have to cut into what he already has. What do you say, Mike ?
Grin, Stein
I don't think adding to benchwork is a problem. I'd be willing to consider this idea.. But my table is made like a wall. With an outside frame, and "studs" between them.And then plywood and foam on top.... My question is, how do I cut an access hole in the middle of this??? Without compromising the integrety of the table??
About the mill scene.... In my drawing, the location of the switch just above the labeled log dump is about 6" beyond the bottom of the grade. So the grade starts 3.5 feet from back wall. I had to start it here to get the proper height I needed for the left lobe... So I didn't think I had enough space to locate the mill siding on the far right side.. Plus, I didn't want to have to back cars off mill siding up onto grade on main to get cars to town.. In my plan the log cars dump logs and then head back uphill. Cars from town or staging would then be shuffled in/out at mill tracks..
hi,
just presented you my idea's. If you don't like them fine. But don't invent reasons.
1)When you start the grade beyond the bridge in my design you go enter the left lobe at a height of 5" and and the logcamp will be 8" high. Seems plenty of heigth.
2)You need one runaround move at Central when leaving town, I need one runaround move entering town; only the lead of the mill tracks is on the grade.
When you want a longer run for the logs flip the stations. I would do that anyhow if you want to hide the tracks along the back of Logville Central.
Keep smiling, have fun Paul
MPRRI don't think adding to benchwork is a problem. I'd be willing to consider this idea.. But my table is made like a wall. With an outside frame, and "studs" between them.And then plywood and foam on top.... My question is, how do I cut an access hole in the middle of this??? Without compromising the integrety of the table??
The way to cut a hole where you need to cut a joist is essentially done in the same way as one cuts a window hole in a house wall - you frame around the opening:
But I am not so sure you need an access hole.
Another approach would be to just make a center divider/backdrop on the left peninsula that is a hollow raindrop shape - doesn't matter that there is a little "wasted" space inside curved backdrop that you cannot reach from the aisles.
steinjr MPRR I don't think adding to benchwork is a problem. I'd be willing to consider this idea.. But my table is made like a wall. With an outside frame, and "studs" between them.And then plywood and foam on top.... My question is, how do I cut an access hole in the middle of this??? Without compromising the integrety of the table?? The way to cut a hole where you need to cut a joist is essentially done in the same way as one cuts a window hole in a house wall - you frame around the opening: But I am not so sure you need an access hole. Another approach would be to just make a center divider/backdrop on the left peninsula that is a hollow raindrop shape - doesn't matter that there is a little "wasted" space inside curved backdrop that you cannot reach from the aisles. Smile, Stein
MPRR I don't think adding to benchwork is a problem. I'd be willing to consider this idea.. But my table is made like a wall. With an outside frame, and "studs" between them.And then plywood and foam on top.... My question is, how do I cut an access hole in the middle of this??? Without compromising the integrety of the table??
Mike,
You don't really need an elaborate change to your benchwork to incorporate Paul's elements. If you simply add benchwork to the left lobe, extending two squares towards the right lobe, you can have an L shaped backdrop ( I would curve it) and separate the scenes well enough to capture the sense of distance. I think the new left lobe would be big enough to do that. No need to change what you already have, simply add more to it via simple table top construction.
I'm always impressed with Stein's trackplans he posts here. They accomplish much of what the questioner is looking for, usually in a very efficient arrangement. Operationally, his plan is more interesting than yours, to be frank. It cuts out some mainline run, but the switchback provides interest, and its very prototypical for a logging railroad.
Either way, adjusting your existing benchwork on the left or redoing it a bit on the right side to accomodate Stein's plan should provide you with improvement's over what you started with here, which I think is what you are looking for.
hi Mike
Don't know why I made this drawing, you have finished your bench allready, but instead of the leftlobe you can also make your rightlobe bigger. These are quick drawings, just to visualise the possibilities; not meant to be ready for the built. Ask Stein sometime how many times he went over the details of his last design.
On another thread some one stated a line I will never forget:" I built my bench first and my track later". It turned out he meant to finalize the design later. With complex helixes and grades involved, he may be lucky after all, or he will be ready for the trashcan.
The main reason for this posting is the idea to consider a direct connection between Upwood and Logville. Tunnel 73 will then become the entrance into staging. Hiding the track behind Logville will be easy; tunnel 73 is supposed to be the lowest point (of the visible part) of the line.