Why so few city/urban layouts?

[accatenary]

steinjr

accatenary

I'm modeling beyond the factory Facades that line the Railroad.  City modeling is just that. I model freight, Passenger and surface transit operations and they how react with each other. Its all part of a city wide system.

 

 The city makes a nice (albeit a little too big for my taste) backdrop, but the interesting part is the railroading.

 How about telling us a little about how you model the railroading part of your city layout ? How long is an operating session ? How many operators ?

 What kind of staging do you have ?

 How many freight trains do you run in an operating session ? What do they do ?How do you route your freight trains - is there just one route, or several ?

 How many passenger trains ? What do they do ? How do you schedule passenger trains ?

 How does transit and heavy rail interact ?

 Smile,
 Stein, curious

 

 

 

 

The Railroad is DCC and at this point isn't that complicated in the terms of operators and operating sessions. It takes two people to operate it effienciently although I can run it myself. Basically its two railroads in one, a trolley layout and a heavy traction layout. The Heavy traction Layout has 4 switch towers (panel locations) Zoo, Arsenal, North Phil & Broad

The Heavy Traction layout is a 4 track oval at one end, a figure 8 in the middle and a loop at the other end making the whole set up a dog bone.(see plan below)  It can be set up for viewing purposes with 4 trains that operate continuously independant of one another or Point to Point operations. Freight operations are minimal with industrial switching that occurs along six sidings along the main line. With a larger (freight staging yard)planned extension reached by a wye at zoo interlocking. Passenger operations are Point to Point from 30th street station to Broad Street Station South via a North Philly Full 4 track interlocking on to a two track viaduct (highline) that leads across town to Broad St Station. At Broad st Station which is set up as a stub end station with a wye at the begining of the throat, for turning locomotives/passenger trains or through freights but Broad Street station also has two through Tracks that lead to another part of the city with a loop/4 track yard for turning passenger trains back to Broad st Station .Staging of passenger trains is essentially done in the stations with total capacity of 11 passenger trains. As of now I am building process of building the Loop extension which is really a staging area that is not hidden. 

Each Station is served by a trolley line and in one section of the City the trolley lines cross the railroad at grade crossings. In this area there is an industrial siding that has an freight exchange with trolley maintenance depot. The Trolley lines are Basically street running with working traffic lights and if you obey the signals it will take forever to do the longest route which is 96 feet.

Steve 

 

 

[steinjr]

accatenary

Basically its two railroads in one, a trolley layout and a heavy traction layout. The Heavy traction Layout has 4 switch towers (panel locations) Zoo, Arsenal, North Phil & Broad

The Heavy Traction layout is a 4 track oval at one end, a figure 8 in the middle and a loop at the other end making the whole set up a dog bone.(see plan below)  It can be set up for viewing purposes with 4 trains that operate continuously independant of one another or Point to Point operations. Freight operations are minimal with industrial switching that occurs along six sidings along the main line. With a larger (freight staging yard)planned extension reached by a wye at zoo interlocking. Passenger operations are Point to Point from 30th street station to Broad Street Station South via a North Philly Full 4 track interlocking on to a two track viaduct (highline) that leads across town to Broad St Station. At Broad st Station which is set up as a stub end station with a wye at the begining of the throat, for turning locomotives/passenger trains or through freights but Broad Street station also has two through Tracks that lead to another part of the city with a loop/4 track yard for turning passenger trains back to Broad st Station .Staging of passenger trains is essentially done in the stations with total capacity of 11 passenger trains. As of now I am building process of building the Loop extension which is really a staging area that is not hidden. 

Each Station is served by a trolley line and in one section of the City the trolley lines cross the railroad at grade crossings. In this area there is an industrial siding that has an freight exchange with trolley maintenance depot. The Trolley lines are Basically street running with working traffic lights and if you obey the signals it will take forever to do the longest route which is 96 feet.

 I have looked at your track plan, had a look at your web page (again), and looked at several of your youtube videos.

 I suspect that your layout is truly in an awe inspiring class of it's own. Maybe the phrase you chose to describe it is appropriate, even thought it somehow doesn't run that easy off the tongue (yet) : "City Modeling Railroading", rather than "Urban Model Railroading". Or maybe I would have described it as "museum display layout" - where a railfan can stand for a long time watching passenger trains and trolleys run fully automated through a great depiction of the downtown area (and a sample of the Germantown area) of the city of brotherly love. 

 Where you can go e.g : "Wow - wasn't that a Metroliner that just ran by?", or stand there and watch with fascination the trolleys roll up to the intersection, stop at a red light and wait for a green light before proceeding. 

 IMO, this is a work of art that, which also is built on solid engineering. I would not be surprised if the city of Pennsylvania wouldn't some day offer to buy your entire house with the layout and turn it into a major tourist attraction for railfans - provided you are actually located in the Philadelphia area and that it would be possible to arrange for parking and the flow of people through the room to look at the layout and such practical considerations. It is Miniature Wunderland Hamburg style model railroading - very impressive, both in sheer size and in detail work and automation!

 And you track plan is very sound for what you are doing - by keeping 4 passenger (or more) trains moving all the time, and by having the other seven sitting at the two impressive stations, or at the North Philadelphia loop you create, with those 11 passenger trains, a very convincing impression of a very bustling city railroad - there will be several different trains through your field of vision every 30 seconds. 

 The trolley lines are also fascinating, with the interaction between different trolley routes. I bet that automating signals and routes must have been a major task, with an awesome number of iterations to get everything synchronized !

 I also like that you have added a freight mostly path trough your city, where you can run longish freight trains in display mode, and do a little switching when you feel like it. And I can see how that storage room off to the right is just calling out for some freight staging (by way of the upper track off the layout at the left at Zoo tower).

 Btw - those two trolley tracks (red) that stops suddenly (or ducks under the layout ?) just above and to the right of the 30th street station - what are they leading to ?

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[markalan]

Steve,

I haven't been up on the forum in a few months but today between appointments, the urban thread caught my attention.  Your city is, to my eye, a CITY.  In the past, steinjr and I have compared notes on urban layouts and found much to agree upon.  Today, I agree with everything he said about your layout.  It is outstanding.  Thanks for posting your photos and notes.

Having said that, I'll go do some work on my very small (6'x2') "slice" of a city.

markalan

[accatenary]

Thanks Stein & markalan for the compliments. 

I think I have a while to go before its museum Quality.. I still have alot track ballasting to do and other things.

Although it has that display function, I really enjoy running trains from Station to Station through the  North Phil interlocking and up the Highline to Broad street Station. Once this new loop is completed the dog bone configuration will be in effect with 120 feet of mainline track. thats not many for some but for me its alot. Im also thinking of building a loop under 30th street station back to Zoo interlocking That way some trains will not have to orbit the center city area to get from one station to the other.  

Stein, You were right about the storage closet for a freight storage yard. Thats is another project on the list. The trolley tracks that appear to be ducking under the layout was an idea I had for a trolley subway, but I canned that idea in favor of a seperate elevated/subway that would run from North Philly to West Philadelphia with three stations one being in a subway, another on a ramp out of the subway and the final stop elevated in West Philadelphia.

Steve In Philly   

 

[steemtrayn]

Another urban layout:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3EoufT8B7A&feature=channel

[tomasman]

This is my first post so bear with me.  I have experienced frustration at building a viable urban layout and I have come to 2 main things to keep in mind.

1) If you are modeling in N scale, you might want to reconsider an urban layout.  Even with large N scale buildings, it may not give you the impression of size you are looking for, and unless your layout is at nearly eye level, you will have an airborne perspective, not a street level point of view.  HO is a better choice for an urban layout due to the sheer size of the buildings, the level of detail and the availability of product is far better in HO.  Something I didn't think through when I changed from HO to N.   A large N scale building, either a kitbash of multiple smaller buildings or one of the newer buildings from Lunde will be a substantial  investment in order to create the effect you are looking to achieve.  If money is no object it doesn't matter, but for those on a budget.....  Also Rome was not built in a day, think in the long term, be patient, find buildings that will kitbash well into larger structures and gradually accumulate many of them until you can build what you want--make sure you can still find them.  It is frustrating to obtain a discontined kit that would have potential for kitbashing only to discover you will never be able to procure another one.

 

2) Trying to fill up an N scale layout with building is expensive, don't try to fill every square inch with a building, cities have streets, bridges, freeways and these help create the flavor of a city when used in conjunction with each other.  Railroad cuts  exist in major cities now, the tracks are rarely near the downtown area at street level unless  you are modeling an earlier era.  Allow space for parking lots, empty lots, etc.  All these things are characteristics of a major city--you need to study urban areas so you  don't end up looking like a suburb--go vertical, downtown areas have apartments, town houses and tenaments, not ranch houses and split levels.  If you live in a suburb, take a trip to a large city and take a digital camera along so you can review your photos and create the right atmosphere.  You won't find a Wal Mart in the downtown of a major city, no you won't find a 10 story Wal Mart so don't try to represent one.  Make sure what you represent is appropriate! 
     

[BroadwayLion]

This is the first time that this thread has caught my eye. My idea of railroading is strictly urban/suburban, and 100% passenger trains. (Passengers, after all are tasty and make good LION food.) But consider what it takes to run a passenger train into the city. LIRR trains are mostly 10 or 12  cars long, call it 850 to 1000 feet long. In HO your passenger platforms would be over 11 feet long. This does not fit in a 10 x 10 room.

Fortunately the LIONS train room is 24' x 27', but still nowhere near enough for a credible Penn Station. Besides, NYP is all underground. Are you going to model a hole in the ground?

Well the LION is doing just that, but him is focused on NYCT (subways). Subway trains are also 10 cars long, but the shorter (!RT) cars make trains 500' long. This makes the platforms 6' long. The LION has compromised and runs six car trains stopping at 4' long platforms.

The LION is not all that much of a skilled builder, and the shortcuts he used in construction would never pass muster with the MR editors. Still, the layout pleases the LION and that is good enough for me.

The subway runs in tunnels, under cut and cover streets, in open cuts, on embankments, and on elevated structures. It runs through "woodland" (Think Franklin Shuttle) and down town at Penn Station.

A passenger (commuter) railroad serving a REAL city needs trains every few minutes. You can model some sort of a push pull commuter line in Arizona with one train an hour, but that does not cut it for a city. And for a subway trains passing every few seconds on a four track main line is closer to the mark.

The LION is presently running (or will run when he rebuilds his lower track level) eight trains at a time. Six on the (1) Broadway Local and one in each direction on the (2) Seventh Avenue Express. LION does not have eight operators. Him runs the railroad by himself. Him not have money to computerize the railroad or even to use DCC. Nonetheless the railroad is automated, and the LION need only dispatch the trains from 242nd Street.

Penn Station is (will be) represented as a static display on the lower levels of the main table. It will serve as a display for the older passenger cars that I will no longer be running. Since viewers can only see glimpses of it, it does not need high degrees of detail.

LION will make a credible model of Seventh Avenue between 33rd Street and 31st street above Penn Station and above the subway line that passes through there. That will be expensive over $500.00 which I do not have and cannot get. Further south I will build a model of the former World Trade Center. Each Tower was 200' x 200' or with a 2' square HO footprint. But then the towers would have to be over 15' tall! Forced perspective will make the towers smaller and shorter. Smaller buildings around the base, perhaps N scale buildings behind HO scale buildings will aid this deception. Still one is tempted to forgo such towers and simply model Battery Park. That is much easier and is also "Big City".

The LION will also model Seventh Avenue above 42nd Street, but this will be at the top of the layout, and while viewers can look directly into the subway station at eye level, they will need a step stool to see the street level. Buildings will consist of cardboard cutouts with lighted signs fixed on them. After all, one does not see buildings in times square, one sees lighted billboards. Broadway is a pedestrian mall at this point in the city.

If you look at my system map, you will see that I have fit the railroad and the city into the tables that I have built. The train moves from one vignette to another and I try to smooth the transitions as best I can. The layout is on "Three" levels (if you do not count the helix and mezzanines) and so sometimes a subway tunnel is placed just above an open air scene. 242nd Street to 42nd Street is on the upper level; 8th Street to 34th Street is on the middle level; and 14th Street to South Ferry is on the lower level. Thus 42nd Street is directly above Smith-9th Street. Only a thin strip of fascia separates them, and a hidden helix to the lower level is behind and below the Smith-9th Street Station. The track to South Ferry is in the lower left corner of the picture.

Once all of the track is in, I will have a city subway, but there will not be much room to model a city.