Laying rails on the new bench when I found this problem. Turn out is a number 8 and leds to a passing siding. When I got the siding laid I hooked up a straight rerailer and rolled a 70' hooper throught the main line and throught the passing siding and worked fine.
Main line is on the out side and passing line is on the inside. I am coming in throught the heel of the turnout. I have the track laied like the track plain I found in a Atals.
I added the 22" radius turn and derails ever time I try to make it on to the passing line.
Now the question is it the old #8 I am using or should there be a straight before the turn out? If there should be a straight I know why a few of my engines don't like ceratin turn outs. I have 2 that heels are coming off turns.
I did a quick test with a 1.5" section of straight, hooked it to the heel and other end to the 22" turn. At slow speed it track OK, little faster off she goes! Need to try a driffrent car as well.
Confused again Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
I think it's a good idea to have at least a short straight section before the point end of a turnout. This allows the wheels to re-center rather than being pushed to one side rail or the other, and they'll cruise over the points easier that way. You could try fine tuning the turnout by putting a tiny amount of superelevation coming off the curve, if the wheels are riding up over the points there. This is tricky, though, and you may find it causes other cars to derail by fixing this one.
If you can't do that, try using a piece of fixed-radius track instead of flex approaching the turnout. Flex really wants to kink in those situations. The final option is to solder the flex track to the turnout first, in a straight configuration, and then bend it so it won't be as likely to kink.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Ken, I am sorry but I could not follow much of what you said above. If you mean that you have a curved section that leads immediately into the points end of a turnout to provide you with a siding after the turnout, then the problem is likely to be with the points, but it may also be with the join just prior to the points.
Have you beveled the inside and top rail faces at the four ends that meet there? You must do this...no question, it is just the right thing to do for smooth running every time you make two rail pairs meet on your layout.
Secondly, if your join allows the flanges to run across the join without stubbing itself, then the other possibility that I can think of is that your points, probably the outer one, is not sharp enough to prevent the outer flange from picking it when the car is meant to take the diverging route, or it is slightly tight in gauge and needs to be bent outward a wee bit.
Sorry if I have not addressed your meaning.
-Crandell
It was very hard to follow what you were saying but I what you have would look like an oval of track with a switch where the curve meets the straight track. The switch leads to a siding which is outside the loop.
That creates a very bad S curve. While one end of the car is turning one way, the other end is turning the other. With a sharp curve like a 22" radius your track has to be very, very good.
A better arrangement might be to put the siding "inside" the loop. That way as the car heads through the diverging route of the switch it is still turning the same direction.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Sorry I made it clear as mud.
Here is a PIC with the 1.5" straight added to the heel of the turn out.
All so found the problem it seems, the turn out blades had been filed by the orginal owner and olny God knows when and how many mile are on it. They fit just a little losse and blabes seem's to sag just a little.
With it right after the turn the flanges on the wheels where still climing just a little on the rail. I could see the flages go over the points. With the small straight, wheels where lowering down and at slow speed flanges would catch the points and make the turn. Little higher speed over the points the wheels went again.
I installed a new #8 with no straight and at high speed hopper did not derail.
The new section will get some run time before it gets clauk and ballast, working the bugs out first this time.
On the Right Track Ken
Ken,
A few pieces of constructive criticism.
Doing these things will make provide help to you a more efficient process.
Just thought this may help you with the terminology, Ken...
Brian
Jktrains, I am turly soory my spelling is so bad. I am (have no idea how to spell the name of the offection that makes people turn letters backwards in a word but I am one) . When I was in 4th grade my mother was told I was retaded and would never finshes middle school much less High School. (short bus was much easyer to find a seat on!) Then they found the brain toumer (spell check) and it was removed and that helped but not the spelling.
In 7th garde they figured out I need glasses. (was in the pass the kid a long era) and that help alot. Am I ashamed I cannot spell, well to a point yes! But we all so found out I am great with my hands and understand mechinal theroy. Plus I am good with people skills and sales. I worked my way up the company ladder and was incharge of 8 states and had 200 people below me. Securty eye balls bleed when she try to figuer out my meno's but she caught on. Old Mopar sight I was on for years a menber in good natuer offered a Cuda Ken Decoder Ring for $9.95.
Starting over again with a driffrent comany and they as well are trying to figuer out my POS spelling. As bad as it is today I was given the sales person of the year for 2006! Not bad with me starting in the 3rd week of March last year.
At my age I do not think my spelling will get much better so hang in there with me.
Two things come to mind.
1 Nothing will keep a good man down
2 Wille Rodgers said "A smart person knows what they can and cannot do". I cannot spell or type that is a given. But I am getting better at this new hobby and that is what counts.
Terms them self is a real link in its self. Is there a glossery that list terms? Last year when I started on this great site, one of the things that slowed me down a lot was not understanding the terms that where use. Better but still do not know what a Creep is for a example.
Goo under the turn out is chaulking. You can see it but not feel it after sanding. Far as adding something under the sagging points? I would have tried that but I had a new one on the card.
Hope for understanding with the POS spelling and typing and thanks again for all the help! But for a kid that was told I was retired and sent to the short bus my life has turned out Pretty Good.
Cuda Ken
Glad to hear you overcame all the challenges you have faced, Ken. I hope my post did not offend... I was just giving a picture, because some people are better visual learners! Good luck fixing that turnout....
I don't know your particular circumstances, but I don't understand your combination of #8 turnouts with low-20-something-inches radius curves. Such tight curves are more consistent with #4 and #5 turnouts. You are probably wasting space with such turnouts unless you are looking for "scenic" effect, in which case, you should hide those tight curves, or rethink your turnouts.
Mark
markpierce wrote:Such tight curves are more consistent with #4 and #5 turnouts.
Thanks for posting this 'fix'. Could you clarify the part about "Bend the ends inward to direct wheels into the new flangeway."
This seems like something I'd use in the future!
JaRRell
Autobus Prime wrote:cudaken:You have discovered a classic problem, and better yet, it has an easy solution.What happens is that points, especially on commercial switches, rarely sit perfectly against the stock rails. On straight track, wheels tend to run centered, so slight imperfections aren't a problem. On curves, the outer wheel is constantly pushing against the outer rail. With higher speed, the pressure is higher. When your switch is set straight, there's no problem. The outer rail is unbroken, and the wheelcontinues on its way, and soon centers itself. Switch to the diverging route, and suddenly the wheel, pressed against the outer rail, encounters a point, and if everything is not just so, bingo! picked point and derailment.The solution is to line the inner rail with a short 'housetop' guard rail, at the end of the curve, and ending close to the points. Bend the ends inward to direct wheels into the new flangeway. You need not be a skilled tracklayer to add this guardrail. Just cut a piece of rail, bend to fit, and glue it to the ties with contact cement.You will be amazed at the results. I always am, ever since I learned this trick from a Bill Schopp article in an old RMC.Illustration: markpierce wrote:Such tight curves are more consistent with #4 and #5 turnouts.mp:Correct. An Atlas #4 Custom-Line is actually close to a #4 1/2, which gives an included curve of 22" radius.Sometimes I do use a #6 with sharp radii, if I have room, because it costs the same and gives a more gentle transition. Snaking around a sharp curve doesn't look as bad as entering one suddenly. The included curve of a #6, BTW, is about 48" R.
selector wrote:Jarrell, I believe the gentleman is cautioning the person taking this approach to fashion both ends of the guard rail so that they bend inward, like a ski tip, toward the centreline. That way, an errant flange, wanting to keep closer to the centreline, will find this ramp and be forced closer to its host rail, which is the intended effect.
Ken-Download Google Toolbar. It's got a great spell checker in it. Easy to use. I can't spell worth a crap either.http://toolbar.google.com/T4/index_pack.html?utm_campaign=en&utm_source=en-ha-na-us-syn&utm_medium=ha&utm_term=google%20toolbar&tbbrand=GZAY
Wow, there sure are a few ways to skin a cat! lol All of these remedies will probably work but I believe in never having a turnout immediately after a curve. The best situation would be a straight section of track at least as long as your longest car/locomotive between the end of the curve and the beginning of the turnout. If you are having problems with a 50' car running through there, try a 9 inch straight between the curve and the turnout. A 70' car would need a straight a little bit longer.
I got frustrated laying one section of track on an old layout and finally gave up and let 'good enough' be final. That section NEVER ran well and whenever I ran a train through it, it was like "OK slow down, maybe it'll make it. Oops, maybe not." Mind you, I've fixed it by using several suggestions here, but it was never right. If you want to have problem-free operations and get the most fun out of this hobby, plan it well, take your time, and do it right. Problems hardly ever go away but they sure will get worse! It looks like you've already laid cork down and probably don't want to rip it up but if you don't, be prepared to spend a lot of time in that area of the layout, I hope it's easy to get to. You laid cork and track once, you can do it again! It may take a weekend but you'll have trains rolling through that turnout for years, not a bad time investment, if you ask me.
http://delray1967.shutterfly.com/pictures/5
SEMI Free-Mo@groups.io
Autobus Prime , markpierce and Slector do you think the number 4's would be better than the number 8's I have used? If so be more than happy rip them out! New section is not that long at 9' and the #8's sure eat up spaces quick!
Reason I went with 8's is I was told they where the most trouble free.
Any tips on taking cork off the foam? I used a cheap latex chauk.
Learnig again Cuda Ken
Ken, I don't know who might have told you that "#8's are the most trouble free," but I would not have said that. The reason is that it depends on how they are made, and to what tolerances. My Fast Tracks #8's are simply marvellous, but they still took some tweaking wherever I place them, particularly in instances where they were met directly off a curve. I followed Chuck's advice about beveling the edges of all rails where they met on my layout, and that has surely kept me out of lots of trouble.
You may have been better advised to use curved turnouts. I have five on my layout, and except for having to cut the diverging frog rails to prevent shorts, they work reasonably well.
Knowing what you run for engines, I would be very leery about reverting to anything smaller than a true NMRA compliant #5 turnout. In fact you should use #6 as your smallest if you want my advice. Where and how you place them is more important if you are getting Peco Streamline or something like that quality. Try to place turnouts after even 4" of tangent approach whenever possible, or else get used to beveling all the tops and inside flange edges of all rails, turnout and those that join each other or turnouts. Make it a habit to do this before you place a section of track down lined up with another.
For cork removal off foam....it will not go well I'm afraid. Your best bet is a slow prying using a metal spatula or steel ruler, something thin that you can slide and slice your way along. Actually, even a sharp old butcher knife would be good, just keep the blade flat so that you are sparing the foam surface to the extent possible. Go slow, slide and slice, take the whole 10 minutes it wants to do this with the results you desire.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Hi, don't get hung up on removing the old cork. You can usually just add more alongside the old stuff to get your trackline right. The first piece will likely fit well against the bevelled edge of the old stuff if you put it upside down so the 2 bevels snug up to each other. Be ready to sand or shim them so they are the right height. The ballast will hide the joint later. There's lots of realigned prototype trackage that still shows where the original line was. After you've relaid the rails, you can decide on ditching, etc with some coarse sandpaper; 30-grit works for me.
The guard rail at the end of the curve sounds interesting. I think I may look into that idea. Thanks for putting in the picture.
Have fun..... George
For the heck of it I picked up 10 number 4's yesterday from K-Trains so see how they will fit. By the way I was saying I had number 8's turns out but they are number 6's.
Slector, as far as my engines sizes go. My larger steamers will only run on the out side of the new section to drop off and pick up coal cars. Work engines that will be using the turn outs will be a Heay Mike, M1 A, Hudson and a B40-8.
Far as tearing up the foam, not real worried about that. I think plaster will fill in any chucks that come out of the foam.
MisterBeasley wrote: I think it's a good idea to have at least a short straight section before the point end of a turnout. This allows the wheels to re-center rather than being pushed to one side rail or the other, and they'll cruise over the points easier that way. You could try fine tuning the turnout by putting a tiny amount of superelevation coming off the curve, if the wheels are riding up over the points there. This is tricky, though, and you may find it causes other cars to derail by fixing this one.If you can't do that, try using a piece of fixed-radius track instead of flex approaching the turnout. Flex really wants to kink in those situations. The final option is to solder the flex track to the turnout first, in a straight configuration, and then bend it so it won't be as likely to kink.
I have first hand experince with that. Coming from the curved side, my engine's pilots (bachmann of course) would derail, and hit the opposing rail, causing a short. I added some superelavation under that area, and now it works just fine.