I used mostly 1x3's with 1x2 cross braces on 12" centers for my layout. The legs are 2x2's.
I this early pic you can see it all. You see 2x2 legs, 1x3 joists, 1x2 cross supports, and in the far upper right you see 1x4's that I used to span a section that had to be legless for 10'.
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j319/pcarrell/Autumns%20Ridge/Picture005-1.jpg
In my earlier forays into L girder construction I used anything at hand for joists - which means anything from stray chunks of 2x4 to both halves of a 1x6 that had split down the (approximate) center. Since the subgrade was mounted on risers, the uneven, splintered top surface had no negative impact on anything except aesthetics.
These days I'm using steel stud material - nominal 2x3 (actually about 1.33 by 2.62) light-gauge for joists, heavier-gauge nominal 1x4 for L girders. IMHO, most layouts are grossly overbuilt. Unless you have joists with clear spans in the 4-6 foot range (or are running 1" scale live steam) 1x4 joists of anything stronger than balsa are an overkill.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I agree, they are often overdone, sometimes by several times!
If a person is never going to get up on it and crawl around, even gently, to get at things or to do better construction of scenery a bit farther back, 1X2 legs should be fine, or similar brackets to wall studs. When using extruded foam surfaces for the layout, and if the foam is only 1" thick, support in the way of joist below the foam every 20" is lots....really, tons! If using 2" foam, as many do to get gouged out relief in the layout surface, one cental joist across an 8' length is plenty. In fact, some folks will insist you need none at all for that thickness. However, I would place one such joist below the place where the thickness was eroded to form a water course or a ravine deeper than about 1.5".
It depends on how long a span and how long your bracing is. I use 1x4 for 8 ft span with minimal or no bracing. If you use more legs or longer bracing then you could use 1x3's. I would only use 1x2's for crosspieces and bracing since they are really only 1 1/2 inches.
Be careful shopping for wood because the 1x2's and 1x3's are frequently cut from the scraps and can have warping, cupping, and/or twisting. Also, the big box lumberyards near me have started carrying something called white wood as their cheap wood. If you use it, be careful with it. I used some recently for trim on a shed my son and I built and I had to pre drill the screw holes for the drywall type screws to prevent splitting.
Enjoy
Paul
Art, I guess it depends on what and where. I used clear spruce 1X4, selected myself, and ripped some of them so that I could make L-girders with the ripped sections. None of mine lost true as a result of my ripping, which incidentally I did for the first time ever on these items.
That leads me to wonder what a person should look for. Perhaps someone reading who is well versed in wooden construction can share his/her knowledge, and provide us some hints on what to do besides just eyeballing down the sides of milled lumber and looking for knots.
I used clear 1 x 2 and no problems. I don't climb on my layout. Angle bracing is the key to stability. Also, if you go wall to wall, you can get by with less angle bracing. Middle of room needs more sturdy design.
I know one guy who said he was going to use 4x4's for legs. I said you know, you will still need angle bracing. No, he said, not with 4x4's! Guess what? He needed angle bracing. 4x4's did very little over a 2x2 or even 1x2.
Try and figure out a way so the legs support the load directly. That is, the load doesn't have to go through a screw, to the off set leg. Leg directly under the crosspiece, that is the way to go.
I use the span tables in Westcott's book on benchwork, published by Kalmbach. Westcott researched what lumber was required for a given span to prevent a deflection of more than 1/500" with a mid-span point load of 250lbs, IIRC.
Others may consider this overkill, but at least I know that if I lean on the layout (inadvertently or not) or even have to get on top of it to access the ceiling or similar, I'm not going to throw my track out of kilter.
What is a realistic point load for a wall-mounted shelf layout? My guess is that it would be fairly easy to apply 100 lbs with a lean to reach or do something near the back of the layout. And a slip or a fall could make for much higher loads.
just my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
I have used 1x3 for all the L girder and cross supports with no problems, although 1 half of the benchwork is screwed directly to the wall so it isn't going anywhere, also the front L girder has legs every 4 feet which are screwed to the floor. I have had no problems using 1x3's like this in the past and I have found it very sturdy.
Shaun
Fred, you are absolutely right...I forgot to cover the emergency "grab" as one finds one's self falling.
That aspect of strengthening the wall mounted bench comes most easily with diagonal braces transversely mounted to the axis of the bench sections, and butted between the floor and the lower edges of the wall, best over studs behind the walls for the most support. In other words tight into the corner at the lower extreme. That type of support is very strong.
I used 1x4 poplar for my entire layout frame. Rather than waste my time sorting through all of the twisted, crooked pine at Home Depot or Lowe's, I can save time and go to my local specialty lumber supplier and buy poplar up to 16 foot long for just under $1.00 per running foot.
I used diagonal bracing to support the front edges of the layout, aligning the braces with the studs in the walls. Here is a sample of an installed brace.
Don Z.
Research; it's not just for geeks.
That is what I had in mind, Don, but with the bracing running to the lower corner between floor and wall. Not in any way deprecating what you have done...it looks marvelous (wish it were mine!), but the method I describe would be considerably stronger with the floor comprising part of the support.
-Crandell
Crandell,
While I can appreciate your idea of extending the brace to the floor, I think any gains in strength would be minimal. My bracing forms a right triangle, with the diagonal brace being attached through the vertical member into the studs behind with 3" screws. I have no problem placing all of my 240 pounds onto my benchwork.
My layout is a 5x12 foot, free-standing, or rather free-rolling, table. It's on casters. The outside of the frame is 1x4, with 1x3 cross rafters and 2x2 legs. I used some 1x2 as diagonal bracing. The legs are attached with 3/4 inch plywood gussets.
The layout base is 2-inch foam, which sits on top of the rafters, inside the outer frame. This gives the foam protection from impact.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
moochie wrote:Opinion please. Would 1x3 or even 1x2 be ok to build an open grid layout?
If you are going with an L-girder type open grid, I would think a 1x2 would work, but would not recommend it. As others have said the issue there is knots. A knot seldom goes all the way from edge to edge on a 1x3 and almost never on a 1x4, but 1x2s often have knots that are almost as wide as the wood. This would totaly ruin the structural integrity of it - even in an L-girder arrangement.
I have a friend who went and purchased #1 pine (no knots) for his. Not only does it look great there is no chance of a knot making a weak area.
I did a layout with 2x4 frame on a plywood surface once just because studs were so cheap. Boy was that a mistake. It weighed a ton so it had to have heavier legs just to support itself. It made everything else a major project. Even drilling holes to run the wires was not easy or fun. I finally just drilled a bunch of large 1.5" holes all over, but I am certain that ruined any additional strenght the 2x4 had over a 1x4. After that I for plywood surface layouts I went to 1x2's. They worked great and are plenty strong. The problem there is that if anything is mounted underneight, like tortoise motors, the motors hand out the bottom making it impossible to set that section on the floor. It always has to be on legs. Even then there is no protection for anything hanging and it is much easier to bump ones head, or bang other things up against such projections.
Hence I am back to 1x4's for both flat top and open grid construction. L-girders I'll still use 1x3's.
In the past, when using a "box" for the basic tabletop, such as a 4'x6' or 4'x8'...
1"x4" have been used for the box's side frames and at least the center rafter/cross-piece.
Regardless of table height, the legs are made by joining (2) 1"x4" pieces, glued & screwed to look like an "L" which provides incredible strength, and; more than ample area to screw or bolt the tabletop framework to the top of each tabletop square corner.
On my upcoming Conemaugh Road & Traction that will be multi-level, J-shaped, and around-the-wall...
The layout will have a combination of basic-framing box-support for some cookie-cutter or staging yards, and; L-girder support for scenery and elevation changes.
[1] The main basic vertical supports from the floor to secure the upper level will be 1"x4."
[2] "1x4" will be for the basic lower level framework, and maybe "1x3" for main upper level since it won't extend out as much as the lower level, nor; will the upper-level need the "modeler-leaning" as much as the lower level.
Past experience has shown 1"x4" support is rock-solid. To coin a phrase I picked up in Australia => "No worries."
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
I used 1x4 on end with a 1x2 for the top L , glued and screwed. I also used mostly 1x2's for braces. If I did it again I would still use the 1x4 as I did but would use 1x3's for braces/crosses supprts for the risers.
There are more pics in my WWW below.
John
On the subject of choosing lumber:
1, If it is not striaght at the yard it will be worse at home. Sight down each board and any curve or twist is a problem.
2. Look for knots or funny grain, even in a straight board, those are likly to warp when ripped.
3. Watch out for sticks that are too light or too heavy, they are inclined to warp when ripped or when they dry.
4. Generally, the longer the board or the wider the board, the better the lumber.
5. Watch out for special names for boards, ie studs, firring, bracing, these will be the junk lumber
6. I would like to say that the lumber yards have better lumber than the big box outlets, but that is not always the case.
7. As a couple of others have said, "Clear" lumber tends to be the best, but still care is in order, especially if you rip it.
Don, thanks for your reply. With your method, you certainly have more room, too, for storage of bulky or large items if that is a consideration.