I would like to hear the real story behind the demise of LGB.
When I visited Europe a couple of years ago. Most of the Hobby Shops were exclusively LGB. 99.9% garden layouts were LGB.
I visited and toured the Factory. They were doing a full production line.
Now I wish I paid the $5,000.00/or Swiss (the hobbyshop that had it) for the LGB Garrett engine that was only released in Europe.
I could not find a Bank in Chicago to give me a Money order in Swiss. Even my local bank 5/3 gave me the run around.
Spike
Give it some time and all the facts will eventually bubble to the surface and we'll have the full picture, but it wont happen till after all the legal stuff is ironed out. No one who really knows the facts will talk till then, its always that way.
Kevin
Dont count on losing the Gummi scale, the only way to do that would be with completely new molds, which I doubt anyone would like to invest in.
As for WHO would bid? Now thats a great question....
If it comes down to that, I see only ONE American bidder being interested, namely LGBoA/G45, they would have a vested interest in it now wouldnt they. Piko would be another interested party, as would Marklin/Kingsbridge of course.
Now given that Marklin/Piko would likely have no interest in the American profile stuf, G45 would be left in a very strong position to obtain the molds and toolings there, while Piko and Marklin would likely fight tooth and nail for the German/Euro profile stuff as they would be tremendous assets in establishing a foothold in that market.
I realize there are other players , particularly in Europe, but I dont see them having the fiscal assets like Marklin and Piko necessary to obtain the molds and tooling if it goes to a bidding war.
Have fun with your trains
Rene Schweitzer
Classic Toy Trains/Garden Railways/Model Railroader
You need to be very careful how you phrase things.
You have done a fine job in this post.
But, some may take statements out of context and accuse you of wishing the company to go away, which nobody has ever done in print that I've been able to find.
I miss Varney, Megow, Mantua, English, Red Ball, all of those, but when they went away the hobby did not "die".
And note, I did not mention which company, which people, or any specifics.
I don't think the Fat Lady has even arrived on scene yet, much less engaged her vocal cords.....
DD1 wrote:The NMRA never recognized
When did NMRA ever recognize "g" gauge in the long run? Are "we" under NMRA rules?
I also echo TOCs post.
TOC I can agree with your overall point about the hobby not going away because of the demise of one manufacturer. What may be different about this episode as compared to the demise of the brands you listed and some others, is that (at least in my opinion) none of them were as singularly responsible for the dramatic rise and success of a completely new gauge / "scale" of model RR line and the following aftermarket as was EPL/LGB...at least as far as I know. I dabbled quite a bit in HO in the mid-1960s and the late 1980s after graduating from 8 years of Lionel in the 1950s. I can remember seeing LGB for the first time in the early 1980s at a York, PA. TCA Show, and heard the enthusiasm but also saw the raised eyebrows over the prices. I admittedly don't know beans about the evolution of the European large scale market but even with all of the other brands out there, it seems (based on what I can read in English) that the brand also became *very* popular over there.
So today there are very credible model mfrs out there making eqpt more to scale than for rough-handling by children, but until we get to Aristo, USAT, and Bachman, it is mostly pretty pricey even compared to the "red box" eqpt. I hope that whatever entity picks up the line will continue the Euro narrow gauge eqpt for those enthusiasts who want it, but also will respond positively to the advice and requests of serious modelers to make reliable scale eqpt as well.
And IMHO it can be sold under any brand name...the LS community will quickly voice sentiment as to its quality and value. One thing that large scale has today that did not exist during the rise of LGB is the internet hobby forums like this one. Branding today is still important but quality and pure market appeal are more apt to be driven by objective analysis and subjective opinions as expressed in these forums.
-GB
TOC is correct, this can be a volitale issue, however none of us "wanted" to see LGB go up like the Hindenburg over Lakehurst NJ, but it happened anyway.
LGB had at least 10 locos in NG and SG that were American profile so one cannot say they didnt attempt to address the US market. I'm sad to see LGB go but the longer the case goes on, the more its apparent that most of the wounds could best be described as "self inflicted" IMHO.
The main reasons LGB went boom will eventually be known one day, but it will take a while before they can come to light as public knowledge, lawyers and courts are that way. Even in the worst case, liquidation, LGB models will live on in much the same way that Delton and Kalamazoo continue to live on in the guise of HLW and Aristo products well after the parent companies sank.
Well, Maerklin developed Gauge One......ex-LGB put meter-gauge trains on that track.....but, like I said, look at the H0 innovators who got us shoved into H0 versus 00.
All those innovators are gone.
Yet, the hobby survives.
There is a finite limit on repaints of boxcars, and when the marketplace seems to be screaming for accurately scaled models (and even with a scale/gauge discrepancy, the scale needs to be right) to develop new items that aren't, as the earlier posted (and now missing) measurements have shown.
Seems if they had come out with a more generic locomotive that could be Amtrak or any number of other roads, might have been a better seller to a more broad market that this specific unit discussed earlier, but, hey, ain't my problem.
I have just read a report that Bachmann Europe have been trying to view the LGB factory etc with a view to purchase but they are receiving no co-operation from the receiver, apparently Peko have been trying for this as well and have met with the same brick wall. Bachmann taking over what's left of LGB would truly be interesting for their product line.
Kim
Kim, dont hold your breathe...IMHO...
...Highly unsubstaniated and uncomfirmed rumblings from the little birdies, gremlins, elfs, and the rumor and innuendo undeground grapevine has been making that might be concievable that among the recievers there might be a possible alleged pre-existing financial connection between one of the alleged banks creditors and the alleged supposed front runner bidding for the remains of the alleged company, and this makes me think IMHO that this may have highly allegedly and very unsubstaniatedly influence on "who" the recievership may want the assetts to allegedly go too (and it certainly aint the Bach'man or Piko) and it makes me think IMHO that it may be highly allegedly and very unsubstaniatedly working behind the scenes to allegedly make sure that this alleged transfer maybe takes place.
All my highly unsubstaniated and uncomfirmable personal OPINION thank you.
PS this alleged connection has already been printed on other fora so no foaming please....
Suffice to say, if you DONT care, why are you bothering to open, scroll thru, and read this?
Why are you bothering to waste energy to type in a reply to it?
There are dozens of topics, do I post to every one of them? no, so neither should you?
Whats the old addage about nothing nice to say?
If you dont like the topic, DONT READ IT!
Simple logic isnt it.
NO ONE has a gun to your dogs head saying READ THIS OR ELSE.
Its very, very, very, very, simple to skip topics you dont care about, I do it all the time.
Your comments show a tremendous amount of disrespect for other forum members who DO care about this topic and would like to discuss it openly and freely.
No one asked you to sit in on this meeting.
Feel free to get up and walk to the breakroom at any time.
PS no amount of foaming is going to make this subject "go away".
Nic:
I admire Aussies. It is the only country I'd consider emigrating to. (I live at the confluence of the Missouri & Mississippi rivers). Now that you know I'm being peaceful, I'd like to present a different point of view re China-made products.
I'm a retired tool and die maker. Thus, I know a tad about machines. Now that I'm retired, I like the Chinese stuff because it's affordable. Certainly quality and accuracy suffer: a Chinese vertical mill is near hopeless if you want to hold less than 0.010" tolerance. In a manufacturing environment, that's near worthless. In my basement, it's just fine because I never would try to work to such close tolerances, because I'm done with all that. But a 'good' machine (and incidentally, I'm told--being out of industry now--that even the 'big name' machines have the castings done in China or India) costs above $7K, and then there's the tooling to make it useful. So, an old guy like I can get a vertical mill to work to 'close-enough' tolerances at an affordable price. My workshops (I have 2 plus a smithy) are filled with Chinese stuff. That's in instances where I can't find a garage-sale item and have to buy 'new' or don't feel up to making my own. I get grief from my machinist friends. Their main complaint after lack of tolerance is, "It won't last." True. But I'm in the setting-sun period of my life; I could care about a machine lasting three generations in a 24/7 environment, as the old USA stuff did? Nope. Ten, fifteen years at the outside, and I'll be content with stuffing wood in the fireplace and remembering my G Scale (1:20.3) outdoor RR. (Big, so I can see it easily).
Let's assume LGB goes 'offshore'. Let's also assume the Chinese, no slouches in innovation, bring forth even more variations of product so as to create more 'realistic' items. I'm a fan of the 'toylike' appearance of LGB. I own one piece, used, because their prices exceed my allowable funds. It is charming. It appears to be extremely well made. I have a number of Bachman pieces, all bought damaged off 'Evil Bay' as my favorite Englishman on this board refers to it, and I'm learning the ways of modifications/kitbashing/scratchbuilding. I find the Bachman cheaply made (in China, and probably to spec) but they satisfy my purposes: I can work 'em over to my heart's content and throw the miserable failures into the junk box. Ditto the other cheap end stuff. It's great learning material, and right there is the attraction for me: to circumvent no room for an indoor layout, I've turned to G gauge. Since it's expensive, I'm developing workarounds. I like to learn new stuff. Which reminds me, I have to bug Crumudgeon, who strikes me as a veritible swamp of good information.
I digress. A 'cheap chinese LGB' might not be so bad, because it'd be more affordable, find a wider market, thus used parts would be more available--since the Chinese make no pretense of supporting their products--and, most importantly, homegrown shops might start making better parts to fill a bigger demand. I have to wonder if some bright spark built 'drop in' gearboxes for the common Bachmann 4-6-0, if he might sell a bunch of them.
Now, there is a high-end market, granted. I wish them no evil. I'm not in that class and never will be. I'll live. I'd bet someone will come along and fill that niche as the Japanese did with brass. Marklin might rise to the occasion.
US companies are doing the same thing. It's called 'The Global Economy'. I'm too old to care, and I've raised two kids with the knowledge, if not the desire, to keep a shotgun, grubhoe, and sharp axe for when it all implodes. That's about all I can do. The rest, I'll enjoy as much as I can.
Respectfully,
Les"Looks like they are doing what most Australian companies are doing - going "broke" and then popping up as the same product only made with cheap labour, poor materials, non-existant quality and higher prices ex China.I think Quote from Buffington sums it up nicely.And ironically, LGBs home page waffles on about the Shanghai Toy Show.Anyways, if they move everything to China, should be able to buy pirate copies cheap!BTW - does anyone know where in My Least Favourite Country LGB has its manufacturing done."
I for one like LGB as stated in my 'Thanks to LGB' post a couple of weeks ago. I have a sumpter mallet, a 2-4-0, mogul and my most recent buy, the C&S forney. I find them all very nice and I do regret their passing. Like 'em or hate 'em, you have to admit that without them there would probably be no USA, Aristo etc etc today and the hobby would still be the reserve of us Brits!
Cheers,
Karl Reichenbach wrote:WHO CARES!!!!!!
I care, Karl. See my post below on the subject. I care more that overt rudeness has no place on this board. I like this board because it's friendly and non-confrontational. Nor is it rudely derisive. I think both these posts fall into the 'lets rethink this' category. If you don't like a particular post, there are more civilized means of expression. I ask you, nicely, to think twice before slapping off something like the above. It isn't gentlemanly, for one thing, and says things about you that you may not like.
Les Whitaker
For the record, nobody is bashing the ex-LGB line.
For the record, there IS no LGB, or LGB employees to bash.
For the record, the latest Kalmbach GR reader's survey shows 94% of the consumers want to know what the scale IS BEFORE they buy.
That leaves 6% who don't give a randy rat's.....
For the record, the "Big Three" state the scale.
For the record, if you don't want to read this, then don't. And if you don't, but do anyway because you can't help yourself, don't complain. If you do complain, don't be surprised when you are either ignored or told to go away.
Les,
> It isn't gentlemanly...
Hear hear! If you lived down the street I'd buy you a beer.
TJ
------------------------------------
TJsTrains.com - Stop by - lots of pictures
Here is the report I read, copied from G Scale Mad, a very popular brit site:
The original text was in German, but here is a translation:From the GARTENBAHNprofi News Site July 5, 2007 gil. "I can confirm that Bachmann Europe has a major interest in purchasing the Ernst Paul Lehmann Company..."assures Graham Hubbard, Managing Director of Bachmann, Europe PLC in London. In a statement that was received by GARTENBAHNprofi, Hubbard mentions that interest in a takeover of LGB was expressed as long ago as November 2006. In April, when the Schoentag-LGB-Company went into insolvency this interest was again clearly stated. The takeover offer which Bachmann submitted was however non-binding since one wasn't afforded the opportunity to inspect the premises or the operation. To this day Bachmann is awaiting more detailed information regarding the remaining assets in the insolvency. Bachmann would be pleased to have the opportunity to inspect the plant and has since repeated the request several times, however without a reaction from the insolvency trustee. Hubbard regretted that despite pleas for full particulars one has so far not received an official reply to the questions. "Once this information is available to us, we will then be in a position to submit a final binding offer", affirmed Graham Hubbard.Bachmann Europe is a subsidiary of Kader Industrial, Hong Kong, the largest producer of strictly model railroad items.In the very recent past Piko CEO, Dr. Wilder, has also complained that there is no response to his submission.
3609 from down under.
If price and quality are right you will succeed, if not you go down and this is not Murphy's Law. It is sad because their products were priced right out of reach from the average working class person in Australia, so I don't give a dam. Long live the survivers. Look at this way, L.G.B. will become ANTIQUE, worth more maybe.
Let's all be nice about this, any way is anyone gonna run a train today ????
Byron F. Custer
OH well,coffee's a brewin....
Guess Ill have a cup, or how bout two... After all this....
Than I guess I'll get the "Builder" and the "Star" outta the station.....
But MAN I'm having FUNNN.....
Isn't that what it's all about, Have a good one everyone.
kimbrit wrote:Here is the report I read, copied from G Scale Mad, a very popular brit site:The original text was in German, but here is a translation:From the GARTENBAHNprofi News Site July 5, 2007 gil. "I can confirm that Bachmann Europe has a major interest in purchasing the Ernst Paul Lehmann Company..."assures Graham Hubbard, Managing Director of Bachmann, Europe PLC in London. In a statement that was received by GARTENBAHNprofi, Hubbard mentions that interest in a takeover of LGB was expressed as long ago as November 2006. In April, when the Schoentag-LGB-Company went into insolvency this interest was again clearly stated. The takeover offer which Bachmann submitted was however non-binding since one wasn't afforded the opportunity to inspect the premises or the operation. To this day Bachmann is awaiting more detailed information regarding the remaining assets in the insolvency. Bachmann would be pleased to have the opportunity to inspect the plant and has since repeated the request several times, however without a reaction from the insolvency trustee. Hubbard regretted that despite pleas for full particulars one has so far not received an official reply to the questions. "Once this information is available to us, we will then be in a position to submit a final binding offer", affirmed Graham Hubbard.Bachmann Europe is a subsidiary of Kader Industrial, Hong Kong, the largest producer of strictly model railroad items.In the very recent past Piko CEO, Dr. Wilder, has also complained that there is no response to his submission.
Hello,
Yes, the items that my husband H-J. Mueller translates get copied far and wide, in the above instance the "copier" introduced additional typos, since copy/paste from a JPEG is not that easy.
The original looks like this
with the translator duly noted.
I hope this helps to clear up potential misunderstandings.
Best regards
ER
One has to be very careful when they plagarize.
If they personally have not done the work, they don't actually "know" the facts, hence silly litle mistakes creep in, and if said plagarist cannot spell above a second grade level, errors in spelling are inevitable.
The Random House College Dictionary defines plagarism as: "The appropriation or imitation of the language, ideas and thoughts of another and the representation of them as one's original work."
So, if one does not give credit for work one has copied or appropriated, they are, in fact, plagarizing.
Remember that when you see the data posted by one on various forums.
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