I'm brand new to garden railway and and planning. I have no electricity available where I'm putting my layout and am 100% sure that I'm using r/c and will use rechargeable batterys etc. Has anyone had experience with the low cost lionel/bachman G scale track for outdoor use? I know it is not recommended but was wondering if it might be ok to use if I'm not worried about the connections.
I can tell you have read something about this already.
I suggest you read it again
I've not seen anyone say it's a good idea for either of the two brands, and emphatically so.
Every thread I have read pointed out that they will rust into nothing in short order.
Don't even think about it, unless you really want to prove what you have read is true.
Regards, Greg
Visit my site: http://www.elmassian.com - lots of tips on locos, rolling stock and more.
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Thanks Greg, I have been drowning myself with information since I took an interest about a month ago! Just wasn't sure if this was feasible if the electrical connections didn't matter. Your input is really helpful, I will definitely look for quality as I plan on putting alot of time and effort into it.
Thank you! This is very helpful.
I'm currently in the process of building a rather large G scale outdoor layout at our model railroad club using PVC ties and rail from Train-Li USA, since I also run only battery powered locomotives. The type of PVC the ties and rail are made of is the same that is used for trash cans, so it should withstand the elements even in the Arizona desert.
Greg Elmassian I can tell you have read something about this already. I suggest you read it again I've not seen anyone say it's a good idea for either of the two brands, and emphatically so. Every thread I have read pointed out that they will rust into nothing in short order. Don't even think about it, unless you really want to prove what you have read is true. Regards, Greg
Train-li has some plistic traick if you are never ever going to use track power.
Dave
The head is gray, hands don't work , back is weak, legs give out, eyes are gone, money go's and my wife still love's Me.
That's what the post above yours said too.
I will be interested in the long term viability of the track in the weather and sun.
I know Train-Li deals in quality stuff.
I was not trying to be mean in my first post, but every post I have seen ask this question get the response (true, I have seen it) that the Bachmann track will rust to nothing in a very short while.
Fewer people have tried the Lionel steel track outdoors, but maybe you were referencing the Lionel G scale brass track outdoors. That is a tubular brass construction, not very sturdy, but it's not clear that it is UV resistant.
For battery I would go aluminum, and if you had to run track power you can probably make it work for a few years cheaply, i.e. not a lot of expensive joiners. If you want it to conduct between sections for a good while, then stainless steel split jaws would be my recommendation, but nothing is guaranteed.
Again, some people have it for years and very little corrosion, and others have it dissolve in a few years.
This is very similar to the brass track question. There's people in environments that have very little oxidation, track cleaning, maintenance.
Then there are brass track users (like I was) where you had to clean the oxidation every day.
This is why there are so many different opinions, because not everyone's environment is the same.
But I can guarantee you that unless you live in a zero humidity state, the steel track will rust.
Great site Greg. And to be truthful, I didn't even KNOW about Train-Li until I posted on this forum. Like I said, I'm a true beginner. I have purchased one garden railways magazine from the local hobby store, it is a 2008 version. I understand the frustration of seeing the same questions over and over. I guess I could have learned to search the forums a little better before diving in, but rest assured all of the replies I have received have really made a difference. I'm in South Georgia and it is very humid here so rust is a concern, not to mention warping and possible melting as I swear it's 120 F outside right now! This is a project that came to me after trying to figure out for two years what to do with a large un-landscaped area in my yard. (The train at EPCOT gave me the idea) Honestly it's the Only G-scale train that I've seen in person. I confess that I was browsing for track on ebay and noticed alot of G-scale stuff from Bachmann and Lionel, I also confess that I have still not actually held a piece of G-scale track in my hands (I am REALLY thinking that far ahead!) so I wasn't even vaguely familiar with the differences in quality. Thanks to all that replied. I will definitely put Train-Li and your website on my bookmarks.
The layout at EPCOT was built with LGB and PIKO products and it has stood the test of time in daily operation. Beside the trains and buildings, the quality and materials of the track are no small part of that endurance.
The rails are what is known in American metallurgy as "Grade 360" brass. This is a very high-grade "virgin" metal alloy, with minimal impurities and no scrap metals. It endures the harshest of environments and, as a bonus to your railroad realism, over time outdoors it oxidizes (weathers) to a nice dark grayish-brown. To my knowledge, this rail is not even readily available to manufacturers in China. There are a couple of industrial metal suppliers in Europe who supply this rail in bulk to both LGB and PIKO, and possibly to some smaller track makers as well.
The ties are made of HDPE (high-density polyethylene), a high-grade plastic that is specially treated in the process of manufacturing the raw material to make a finished product that is ultra-violet stabilized. Without this treatment, almost any plastic material will literally disintegrate in a few years outdoors.
Besides the EPCOT layout, this combination is by far the most proven for garden railroads around the world. I have track that has been outside for 20 years now in the Southern California sun. Nickel silver, stainless steel and aluminum rail each have their good and bad points. Particularly for someone starting out, I'd recommend going with what is well-proven.
Regarding cost, unless you're buying used track from people discarding all that "indoor only" train set track, I don't know that there is even any savings. That track is sold mainly for people who want to add on a few pieces to their indoor holiday train layout and who want something that matches what came in the set. Track aimed at the garden railroad market is, by nature of the small community, sold in a fiercely competitive market. I don't know about other brands, but the current MSRP for PIKO track is under $7.00 a foot. And, of course, some shopping around may yield lower prices.
You should also consider a track system/brand that offers a variety of different track sections - straights of various lengths, curves and switches of various radii (if not now, you will probably eventually wish for larger curves, after you run trains for a while), and even flex track to make your own curves.
Garden Railways is a good resource, for product reviews (such as the PIKO switch reviewed in the August 2010 GR) and how-to articles (such as Don Parker's great advice on track and roadbed construction in the June 2010 GR). I think Kalmbach still offers a paperback book on the basics of planning and building a garden railroad. It may even be for sale on this site!
Like any hobby, garden railroading can be a joy or a frustration. Take your time, seek out advice from people with experience, and always invest in the best quality materials and products you can afford.
Murrah, I have a good friend in Cumming GA who I talk to most every day. He's stainless outside, brass did not work well for him. He has put some of the Train-Li plastic track in a covered storage area, so we will see how it weathers.
Yeah, in your climate, SS rail and rail clamps for track power is pretty much a must unless you really like working on track!
Greg: I don’t mean to throw fuel on the fire, just to emphasize one of your points.
Greg Elmassian This is very similar to the brass track question. There's people in environments that have very little oxidation, track cleaning, maintenance.
As you know, we live within 15 miles of each other. I use entirely brass rails, LGB mostly, some Bachmann and another "no name" brand (I picked it up at a yard sale and it has no brand name markings). Since each brand has its own composition they react differently in the same environment. My main loop around the pond and up the bridge to the waterfalls is all LGB (7+ years) and requires cleaning, 5 minutes with pole sander every two months. My main yards (Bachmann) requires cleaning weekly. The "no-name" (forming most of the loop out to "Vine Arbor") requires cleaning before each use and again after 3-4 hours of use. Since the "old LGB" is no longer available, I’ll be giving the Piko brass a try during the next expansion out to "Green Apple Orchard".
I guess what I’ve been rather long winded about is that not only will each type of rail react differently in a given microclimate, but the different brands of the same type also react differently in the same microenvironment.
Tom Trigg
Have to agree Tom, although I think San Diego coastal area is very different (of course I live here!).
Being a native north county boy (born on Camp Pendleton base)... to me, the weather is very different between Oceanside and my house only a few miles away. I lived in Encinitas and La Jolla also.
Can't explain why it's so different, but I know our fog patterns are very different too.
My test loop of brass track was part LGB, part Aristo, part USAT... the LGB was the best, the Aristo oxidized fastest, and USAT track seemed more similar to the Aristo.
I'm almost exactly 1 mile from the coast, and humidity goes up to 85-88 percent at night.
So, I agree... I've been trying to correlate brass track oxidation with environment for the last 10 years, and the only generality I have found is that the environments are more consistent inland, thus my generalization of Georgia.
I have also found a correlation in that wet climates of "pure" moisture, like mountains in washington, oregon, colorado, seem to have less oxidation. Maybe no minerals in the moisture.
But. it's still a crap shoot, I agree.
I find reading you fellows all very interesting. My first “G” railroad was in Sacramento using LGB track. I had to clean it with a pole sander every week or two. Seven years ago we moved to the Sierra Nevada, NW of Reno, NE of Truckee and began building our railroad using Aristo/USA brass track mainlines and LGB for secondary trackage. Here in the Sierra I use track power as in Sacramento and I rarely need to clean my rail. When needed I run an Aristo track cleaning car equipped with a 3M green pad.
Comparing the two locations, Sacramento summer temps are often triple digits, Sierra is comfortable. Sacramento winters can be bone chilling Tule Fog. Sierra is below freezing a storm can bring 4’ of snow. However when the sun is out radiant heat can be quite warm and I run the railroad when I can find the tracks. Both Sacramento and the Sierra have very low humidity, often below 20% in the Sierra.
Have fun, Rob
After having my track work completed with most of it balisted I had to clean my Stainless steel track for the first time since it was completed, over a year since the last time. I had tryed my meathoud of a old towl wetdown with denatured alcohal on a swiffer pole. For the first it didn't work all I did was add gray mud to the rail top's. So i dug out my aristo track cleaning car, added a strip of 320 grit sand paper and let it run for about two trip's around. that wasabout two mounths ago. fifty % of my track is wet down every night from our sprinklers. I do have some rust but you have to look hard to find it. I have very few rail clamps and I do use all the littel screws with track power to 260 ft of track. One more thing we have had a very pleasent summer this year only a few 100+ days.
for the application of never any track power, the plastic track would be the cheapest alternative, but no switches. Train-Li has looked into this, the floppy nature of the rail they have will not support switches, where the moving points have to retain curvature and be unsupported along most of their length.
How much grip would the locos have on plastic track? Wouldn't this affect the grades and make the locos slip more than ever?
Mick
Chief Operating Officer
Northern Timber Company - Mt Beenak
Unknown. Most people who have used the plastic track seem to have used it on fairly level surfaces, in low traffic areas like sidings and storage yards.
We have to wait and see if people report back. I have handled this track, and it's pretty slick, but I think a lot depends on the wheels and the plating on the locos.
Since my first mention of the Train-Li PVC rail, we have built an overpass bridge on the club layout here in SE Arizona using the PVC rail. The bridge is made of concrete and the track is left floating around the 180 degree curve so it can move with changes in temperature.
For turnouts, the PVC rail can be married up to metal rail using regular rail clamps as long as the metal rail is code 332, which is the size of the PVC rail.
The main problem I have encounted with the PVC rail is that it expands and contracts more than any type of metal, so expansion rail clamps need to be used every 15 feet or so on straght runs. Around curves, we just let it float, but it has to be clamped together on the curves.
Traction with plastic rail has been no different than on any type of metal. Trains are able to climb a 15-20 foot long 2 percent grade without wheel slippage.
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