NEW LAYOUT CONSTRUCTION IDEA - Anyone know of a ceiling suspended layout?

This is actually, not an uncommon method. It is often used in garages where cars, for reasons unknown to me, often have to be stored indoors on occasions.

A series of pulleys and cables are used and care is taken to provide adaquate support and to raise & lower the layout without tilting it.

Detachable legs or saw-horses support it during operation. There are a number of commercially available hand operated pulley systems available for his use (primarilly marketed to increase storage in garages.) Here's a link to a system that I was considering: http://www.hoister.com/

If you make you layout from lightweight materials, using primarily foam construction with only minimal use of wood, you won't need mechanical power to lift it. I've been planning a portion of my layout that may hoist up to the celing when not in use. I expect that the section, larger than you are planning (about 7'x13') to weigh not much more than 50 or 60 lbs., easy to lift using pulleys.

This has been discussed here in the past, so expect the usual dire warnings and admonitions to not try it from those who haven't tried it themselves. Built correctly, there is absolutely no danger in this method.

Wayne

There was an article years ago in Model Railroader about a guy who did build an operating layout in this garage that could be lifted up when not in use. I would assume that a search through the mag index at the top of this page may be able to locate it. It was a beautiful layout, seemed to work OK and is evidence that such a project can be done.

While I have never build such a layout, it would seem to be that such a layout would have to have benchwork a little more sturdy than one is used too as the benchwork would be subjected to two different sets of forces - one when resting in the operating position and one when lifted. Of course the use of foam (not used way back when the above mentioned article was written) would make such a project more doable than ever.

Would love to see someone do one of these!

Wayne seemed to hit the high points of this. Several considerations to add to what he said. The layout has to move up and down as a unit, so, for example, if you have a lift point on each corner, all four of the cables have to raise and lower in sync. The easiest way to do this is have all cables wind onto the same drum. Some manual winches have a gear reduction for lifting a heavier layout, or you can double the cables and add a counterweighting system. Don't forget to have stops at the top to keep the layout scenery and buildings from being crushed against the ceiling or joists. You may need to add side stops to prevent the layout from swaying with breezes that enter the garage when the door is open. The cables can even be detachable when the layout is down to get them out of the way.

This is the type of thing that needs to be designed on the fly and always ready to modify. Don't be afraid to make changes to correct any problem you come across after the layout is built. It's almost impossible to anticipate every problem, even if you've built a layout like this before.

There have been a few of these published over the years, including:
The Midland Valley RR, hanging layout in 3 car garage
Model Railroader, June 1977 page 52

This layout was mentioned and a similar similar layout idea with construction tips was covered in John Armstrong's book, "Creative Layout Design" (now out of print, published by Kalmbach).

A smaller layout in a similar vein (also by John Armstrong) was:
The Carlsbad, East Portal & Zenith RR, N scale 4x8
Model Railroader, April 1982 page 98
Article also published in "18 Tailor-Made Model Railroad Track Plans" (Armstrong), , page 31
Article also published in The Classic Layout Designs of John Armstrong , page 56

The key is making the banchwork stiff enough to handle the stresses of being hoisted and a hoist scheme which keeps the thing level during raising and lowering.

Counterweights such as bricks or blocks which may be added to balance the weight of the layout as track and scenery are added is also a good idea.

Regards,

Byron
Model RR Blog

Tom,

I would think that lift points along the length of the layout would be advisable so that the middle doesn't sag. Perhaps lift points every 6 feet or so around the perimeter. Wouldn't be a bad idea to have one somewhere in the interior also.

Byron,

Excellent point, although I think the counterweights you mention really are mandatory. Using adjustable counterweights (good idea!) would allow you to use a relatively lower power motor to lift the thing. Actually, if balanced correctly you should be able to raise and lower the thing manually.

You might also want to consider somekind of locking devise that will secure the layout in the up position.

all I have to say is use pully's and winches and you will be fine.

QUOTE: Muddy Creek Posted: 03 Apr 2005, 20:04:07 This is actually, not an uncommon method. It is often used in garages where cars, for reasons unknown to me, often have to be stored indoors on occasions. A series of pulleys and cables are used and care is taken to provide adaquate support and to raise & lower the layout without tilting it. Detachable legs or saw-horses support it during operation. There are a number of commercially available hand operated pulley systems available for his use (primarilly marketed to increase storage in garages.) Here's a link to a system that I was considering: http://www.hoister.com/ If you make you layout from lightweight materials, using primarily foam construction with only minimal use of wood, you won't need mechanical power to lift it. I've been planning a portion of my layout that may hoist up to the celing when not in use. I expect that the section, larger than you are planning (about 7'x13') to weigh not much more than 50 or 60 lbs., easy to lift using pulleys. This has been discussed here in the past, so expect the usual dire warnings and admonitions to not try it from those who haven't tried it themselves. Built correctly, there is absolutely no danger in this method. Wayne

Your information and thoughts are very much appreciated. My basement trainroom is at capacity, so I'm moving into the storage area (why not?[:)]) where this kind of system would make sense - keeps the floor space free for "projects" and moving stuff around, etc. AND gives me the opportunity to run a few (more) trains when the urge strikes!

As for any "nay sayers," .......... 'nuf said! Thanx![tup][:D]

QUOTE: davekellyPosted: 03 Apr 2005, 21:00:11 There was an article years ago in Model Railroader about a guy who did build an operating layout in this garage that could be lifted up when not in use. I would assume that a search through the mag index at the top of this page may be able to locate it. It was a beautiful layout, seemed to work OK and is evidence that such a project can be done. While I have never build such a layout, it would seem to be that such a layout would have to have benchwork a little more sturdy than one is used too as the benchwork would be subjected to two different sets of forces - one when resting in the operating position and one when lifted. Of course the use of foam (not used way back when the above mentioned article was written) would make such a project more doable than ever. Would love to see someone do one of these!

As indicated, I searched .... but whatever I did, obviously didn't come up with the references needed. I have decades of MRR magazines and recall reading that article too.

Yes, I agree - the layout will be constructed in a very sturdy manner but also as light weight as practicable - that is a huge consideration I would think.

Appreciate your thoughts! [tup][:D]

QUOTE: TomDiehl Posted: 03 Apr 2005, 21:25:10 Wayne seemed to hit the high points of this. Several considerations to add to what he said. The layout has to move up and down as a unit, so, for example, if you have a lift point on each corner, all four of the cables have to raise and lower in sync. The easiest way to do this is have all cables wind onto the same drum. Some manual winches have a gear reduction for lifting a heavier layout, or you can double the cables and add a counterweighting system. Don't forget to have stops at the top to keep the layout scenery and buildings from being crushed against the ceiling or joists. You may need to add side stops to prevent the layout from swaying with breezes that enter the garage when the door is open. The cables can even be detachable when the layout is down to get them out of the way. This is the type of thing that needs to be designed on the fly and always ready to modify. Don't be afraid to make changes to correct any problem you come across after the layout is built. It's almost impossible to anticipate every problem, even if you've built a layout like this before.

Understand the mechanics and absolutely concur in what you've stated.

I'm a big believer in "Murphy's Law," and also the bumper sticker, "S..T Happens!" so yes, expecting problems along with anticipating them, has to be cranked in to my plans! By the way, this is a basement system - not for the garage.

Appreciate your response.[tup][:D]

QUOTE: cuyama Posted: 03 Apr 2005, 21:49:30 There have been a few of these published over the years, including: The Midland Valley RR, hanging layout in 3 car garage Model Railroader, June 1977 page 52 This layout was mentioned and a similar similar layout idea with construction tips was covered in John Armstrong's book, "Creative Layout Design" (now out of print, published by Kalmbach). A smaller layout in a similar vein (also by John Armstrong) was: The Carlsbad, East Portal & Zenith RR, N scale 4x8 Model Railroader, April 1982 page 98 Article also published in "18 Tailor-Made Model Railroad Track Plans" (Armstrong), page 31 Article also published in The Classic Layout Designs of John Armstrong , page 56 The key is making the banchwork stiff enough to handle the stresses of being hoisted and a hoist scheme which keeps the thing level during raising and lowering. Counterweights such as bricks or blocks which may be added to balance the weight of the layout as track and scenery are added is also a good idea. Regards, Byron

BINGO! I knew one or more of you astute modelers would come to my aid! Thanx very much for the references[tup][tup][tup] I really am not the kind of person who relies on others to do that which I am capable of doing .... but these references have been driving me to distraction ....... just couldn't locate 'em and don't know why!! Thanx![tup][;)]
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That should just about close this thread and to all who took the time to offer some meaningful help - many thanx!

By the way, you may view my photo album on

http://www.railimages.com/gallery/thomasweber

You may find some of it interesting ......

See y'all now and then!

Tom in Chesterfield, MO, USA (Siberianmo)

In stead of having the cable attached to the layout why not have 4 8' beams of say 6x2s running under the layout attached to the cables, this will prevent sagging as the layout wieght distribution will be even through the center of the layout as it will be supported be the beams.
The beams would have eye bolts on the ends and the cables would have hooks so that when lowered into operating position the beams can be removed, stacked in the corner out of the way and the cables lifted back up out of sight.
As to keepin the layout level during up/down + storage, maybe use chains fom each attachment point meeting at a common ring in the center so that when taught it forms a kind of pyramid effect over the layout, from this the one cable would go to the pully/winch, maybe a second for conterwieght. This way the layout will remain level, the chains are easily length adjustable and there is only one cable running over the pully/winch.
I played with this idea for a while, as you may be able to tell, but decided on a counterbalanced fold up layout against one wall, the layout folds inwards so all scenery and details are hidded and protected when not in use and is counterbalanced by garage door opening springs, my layout is a double layered 8x6 with a 2x4 subframe under MDF, so it aint light, even before scenery was added, but I can raise and lower it easily with one hand and very little effort.
Be prepared to change things midway through as hurdles appear, I even took mine appart at the end and rebuilt it completely due to a hinge being in the slightly wrong place. Its better to get it right before the scenery/track starts going on, much easier in the long run.

Have fun & be safe,
Karl.

ukguy,

That's a great idea using beams to distribute the stresses!

QUOTE: ukguy Posted: -04 Apr 2005, 10:05:32 In stead of having the cable attached to the layout why not have 4 8' beams of say 6x2s running under the layout attached to the cables, this will prevent sagging as the layout wieght distribution will be even through the center of the layout as it will be supported be the beams. The beams would have eye bolts on the ends and the cables would have hooks so that when lowered into operating position the beams can be removed, stacked in the corner out of the way and the cables lifted back up out of sight. As to keepin the layout level during up/down + storage, maybe use chains fom each attachment point meeting at a common ring in the center so that when taught it forms a kind of pyramid effect over the layout, from this the one cable would go to the pully/winch, maybe a second for conterwieght. This way the layout will remain level, the chains are easily length adjustable and there is only one cable running over the pully/winch. I played with this idea for a while, as you may be able to tell, but decided on a counterbalanced fold up layout against one wall, the layout folds inwards so all scenery and details are hidded and protected when not in use and is counterbalanced by garage door opening springs, my layout is a double layered 8x6 with a 2x4 subframe under MDF, so it aint light, even before scenery was added, but I can raise and lower it easily with one hand and very little effort. Be prepared to change things midway through as hurdles appear, I even took mine appart at the end and rebuilt it completely due to a hinge being in the slightly wrong place. Its better to get it right before the scenery/track starts going on, much easier in the long run. Have fun & be safe, Karl.

All "bets" are still on the table - but your thoughts will go at the top of the list! Right now all I can is envision how this system will work - ultimately, as I check the resources previously provided, I can begin to incorporate the more innovate recommendations, such as yours.

One thing I should mention, and this really factors in - the layout will begin as simply a place to run some vintage American Flyer S-gauge trains that may come into my possession. Obviously, as ANY model railroader KNOWS - most start out in a rather humble fashion and wind up being rather extensive. Been there and done that for my basement train room features my HO "empire." Since I'm a "plan ahead" kind of guy, I will cover all the bases should this simple set up begin to grow.......

Thanx![tup][:D]

Tom in Chesterfield, MO, USA (Siberianmo)

When we purchased our previous house in 1986, the seller had a layout in the back of the garage that used a simple pulley system to raise and lower it. The layout was about 5' x 10' and had eye bolts at each corner. To avoid having the middle of the layout's frame sag, he screwed thick-gauge L-shaped metal strip to the bottom of each structural piece of the wooden frame.

When I was younger, my dad did the same involving pulleys and nylon rope. We had a temporary benchwork built for support when lowered which could be folded up. It wored well...until it got lowered at an angle and old buildings and loose scenery came off. So make sure you are able to lower it level all the time. have fun!

QUOTE: rails5 Posted: 04 Apr 2005, 16:47:30 When we purchased our previous house in 1986, the seller had a layout in the back of the garage that used a simple pulley system to raise and lower it. The layout was about 5' x 10' and had eye bolts at each corner. To avoid having the middle of the layout's frame sag, he screwed thick-gauge L-shaped metal strip to the bottom of each structural piece of the wooden frame.

Thanx for the info ..... My folder is now full of good ideas to work with![tup][;)]

QUOTE: backpackingnn Posted: 04 Apr 2005, 23:08:20 When I was younger, my dad did the same involving pulleys and nylon rope. We had a temporary benchwork built for support when lowered which could be folded up. It wored well...until it got lowered at an angle and old buildings and loose scenery came off. So make sure you are able to lower it level all the time. have fun!

Fun is what it is all about - otherwise, why do it?![tup][:D]
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That should just about close this thread and to all who took the time to offer some meaningful help - many thanx! (I think I said that before[;)])

Tom in Chesterfield, MO, USA (Siberianmo)