Layout for critique

  Some questions:  

 Does the thicker lines on left and top represent walls, ie walkways just on right and bottom, with a roughly 1 foot wide popup by cabinets ?

 How high do you plan to have this layout ?

 Will you need to be able to access stuff in cabinets ?

 Smile,
 Stein

Looks complicated...

For the yard, I would suggest starting the ladder as far up as possible.  Put the A/D track as the longest track in the yard.  If there is room, make the yard double-ended.  

I'll have to work on schematics of actual WSOR customers.  The Burke (east side MADison) area might work for you, with Lycon gravel-sand unloading, LaFarge cement, and Samuel's scrap.  All right close to each other, and switched from different ends.  Miller Brewing also gets a variety of cars: covered hoppers of malt, tanks of corn syrup, RBLs of outbound product.  Could have aluminum inbound, to make cans.  

Plastic and chemical plants give the challenge of putting certain cars on certain spots, and hazardous cars require proper placement in the train.  Most lumberyards have a ramp, to unload boxcars and flats.  Could also have a small coal fired power plant, (2 are in MADison),  the butter place (reefers), co-ops and feed mills (grain and fertilizer), Mad News (newsprint in usually CP boxes)

Part of it depends on what kind of freight cars you have, or are willing to get.  Many types are used, just in the MADison area.  

At this point, MRC doesn't offer a computer hookup.  I would stay away from it.  NCE and Digitrax starter sets would probably be better.  Find out what other guys in your area use. 

Snap switches are a bit tight, probably will give problems with 6-axle power and cars over 50'.  There are some tight curves around.   

I think you will be very frustrated with this layout quickly.  If the squares are 1 ft squares, it means that you won't be able to reach all the layout from either the inside or the outside.  So to uncouple cars and switch things you will have to move in and out of the central hole.

The yard is a very cumbersome design, it could be improved by putting the runaround on the long side of the yard and doubling the length of the train you can yard, you are currently limited to about a 2 ft long train, maybe 4-5 cars.  You can gain more room by not building your buildings as full size buildings, but instead, cutting off one or more sides and putting them against the backdrop. 

Dave H.

 What I have done:

 1) I decided that I was designing the layout for train lengths of one GP7 + 8 40' cars 

 2) I decided that I was designing the layout for 1-3 operators 

 3) Basic idea is from HOG (Hearth of Georgia) "better beginner layout", ie 

• donut shaped layout with operator in pit
• narrow benchwork, wide pit
  
• two passing sidings curving around opposite corners
• fairly gentle (25-27" radius) curves on the main
  

  3) Let access track go behind industries, but not places where you need to couple/uncouple 

  4) Keep most track within 20" of the operator's edge - ie reachable

 This would look the best if you get it up fairly high, so you look in on the layout instead of down on the layout.

 Some points I wanted to illustrate:

 A: Primary Yard lead - preferably long enough to pull an entire track
 B: Two A/D tracks long enough for a standard train - w/engine escape between them
 C: Two classification tracks for primary yard operator
 D: Either secondary yard lead, part of runaround or third class track for primary yard operator
 E: Four shorter class tracks for secondary yard operator - or caboose, RIP & engine service
 F: First passing siding - long enough to let a train of engine + 8 cars take the siding
 G: Second passing siding - long enough to let a train of engine + 8 cars take the siding

 The latter siding also is part of the access to three of the industries (3, 6 and 7) - note that you can let industry tracks cross each other in a diamond, or run off the end of the siding to save space.

Edit: I forgot a crossover rightwards from the main to the uppermost A/D track - coming in just to the right of the engine escape crossover between the two A/D tracks. It is desirable to have a way to get a train going counterclockwise into the yard or staging, or a train going clockwise out of the yard/staging, without having to back the train up to get out on or in from the main.

Notes on industries:

 1: Team track (train to truck unloading) - probably will want fairly frequent switching. Can be tucked away in a corner of the yard

 2: Some kind of fenced yard type industry - observe position between main and operator pit. Allows trains on main to pass behind industry. If necessary the industry can be imagined to be "in the pit" - with just the siding between the main and the pit.

 3: Longish and narrow industry, track on pit side of industry. Functions as a view block - you cannot see the entire train waiting in the double ended siding. Benchwork (and industry) could be made wider here.

 4 & 5 : industry flats up against a backdrop - you can have several industries on the same track. Putting the track up against the backdrop and having industries just 1-2" deep works well - because you are probably primarily interested in what is going on at the track, not in what the opposite end of the factory looks like.

 6: if you want some kind of tipple loader - make sure there is enough room beyond the loader to shove some empty cars past the loader - and then pull them out again past the loader while they are being loaded. To load 3 cars, you need space for 5 - 2 before the loader, 1 under the loader, 2 after the loader. Two under tipple tracks probably will be enough - one for leaving 3 empty cars, one for picking up 3 filled cars.

 7: Track can go into buildings or under the front of building - as in by a covered loading dock.

 8: A building can be used to hide the sneakoff to staging from being too obvious

 9: Hidden staging track w/access from the backside. Each staging track can hold two trains during a session without any need for fiddling trains in staging : one train that leaves the staging track to arrive on the layout, and one train that leaves the layout to arrive at the staging track. 

 Just intended as a handful of potensially helpful hints - obviously you don't have to apply any of these tricks to your design, but if you see something you like, just grab it - I have pinched every one of these ideas from other and better designers over time :-)

 Smile,
 Stein

Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. I was tired when I made the first post and forgot to mention a few things. There is at least two feet of walkway on the 'east' and 'south' edges of the layout, and the cabinets on the 'west' side don't need to be accessed very often, but I don't want to butt up right against them. Also, I'll be using almost exclusively 4-axle power (GP 38s and a GP 7) and 50' cars on the layout, so tight turns shouldn't really be a problem.

Also, the main line (the circlular route) is 22" radius, and much of the rest is 18".

I can only give most of the posts a cursory glance right now, but I'll read them when I'm off of work tonight (stupid 12-hour shifts). 

Here is a plan for a modern brewery.

This plant is restricted to 4-axle power, with tight curves and pavement over most of the track,and the yard is fenced in as well. Semis and other trucks are driving around while the switching is being done.

Usually the crew comes in from the right.  Most moves will be trailing point.  The malt and syrup areas are switched first.  Track 14 unloads the corn syrup outside.  3 cars each can go on spot.  They can request more, and they have a Trackmobile to move cars around. When cars are going into the building, a siren sounds and lights flash, turned on by the train crew.  

The empties are pulled, and set out on the main, or industry spur.  Usually the crew will hold on to one to provide a spacer to get into Bldg 58.  Shipping area gets switched next.  Using the switchback, loads are pulled and empties are spotted.  Bldg 58 holds 4 cars inside, and the switchback holds 9 cars and one engine.  Engines are prohibited from entering the building.  The cars get pushed in all the way to the bumper.  The doors line up with marks on the dock. Then the train is put together, air tested, and they are on their way.  If Bldg 68 needs a switch, it is usually done going the other way, as a trailing point move. 

They usually want certain cars on certain spots.  It can get pretty complicated, with the number of cars they sometimes want and the room available.  Only about 12 cars of room on the main to the left before a power derail. 

steinjr- thanks for all those wonderful tips. I'll probably wind up using a few of those when I have time to re-work my design.

WSOR 3801- Whereabouts in the Burke area are those industries located? I looked in the area with an aerial image and couldn't find much in the way of rail sidings, much less large industry. 

Medina1128 wrote:

My comment is regards to your duckunder. If the heavy lines represent 1 square foot, a 2 foot duckunder seems like it would get old REAL fast.

The Burke area is right around Sycamore Street, east of where Hwy 51 crosses the tracks at grade.  Railroad place names do not necessarily correspond with other maps, etc. 

The runaround holds about 20-22 short cars, or 15 regular ones.  When I was working there, sand and gravel came in 15-car sets, in short cars.  The stub would hold almost 2 sets of sand cars.  

It wasn't uncommon to shove 20+ cars of cement in to LaFarge a day in the summer.  The short track in that area is the flyash track, sometimes extra cement cars would go there.  

Samuels (Sammy's) held 10-12 gons of scrap.  They have more track in the plant, and use a locomotive crane to bash cars around. 

It has been a while since I worked the area, but there was a lot of running around involved, as the yard was west of here.  

WSOR 3801 wrote:

The Burke area is right around Sycamore Street, east of where Hwy 51 crosses the tracks at grade.  Railroad place names do not necessarily correspond with other maps, etc.

 WSOR -

 You find the coolest prototypes! If I hadn't been married to a gal from Minnesota, I might even have considered moving my modelling from Minnesota to Wisconsin :-)  

 After a brief search on maps.live.com, I found the area you are referring to - just area of Hwy 51 (North Stoughton Road) and Sycamore Avenue (not Street) in Madison, WI.

 Here is an overhead image w/street names shown: http://tinyurl.com/4yzu6p

 Using the "Birds eye view" it is possible to see a lot of detail in this area.

 Rough sketch of trackage as it appears to be now:

 Very cool prototype for gon traffic!

 Edit: how big is the gondolas used - about 55 scale feet ?

 Here is one attempt to capture the "flavor" of this area in H0 scale in about 10 feet of length, 18-24" of depth - I have used 40' cars and a GP7 (because I already had that defined in my design program) and assumed cuts of 5 cars (1:3 or 1:4 in number of cars often seems to be a somewhat reasonable compression when modelling a prototype location).

 Obviously not optimized - but I think something roughly along these lines could make an interesting model.

 Have swapped Lafarge and Lycon - easier to model a gravel unloading pit closest to operator (bottom om drawing) - you can see and reach over that, and moved Sammy's Scrap left. 

 Grin,
 Stein

WSOR 3801 wrote:

The Burke area is right around Sycamore Street, east of where Hwy 51 crosses the tracks at grade.  Railroad place names do not necessarily correspond with other maps, etc.  The runaround holds about 20-22 short cars, or 15 regular ones.  When I was working there, sand and gravel came in 15-car sets, in short cars.  The stub would hold almost 2 sets of sand cars.   It wasn't uncommon to shove 20+ cars of cement in to LaFarge a day in the summer.  The short track in that area is the flyash track, sometimes extra cement cars would go there.   Samuels (Sammy's) held 10-12 gons of scrap.  They have more track in the plant, and use a locomotive crane to bash cars around.  It has been a while since I worked the area, but there was a lot of running around involved, as the yard was west of here.

Ah, thank you! That's a perfect example of industry trackage. I'll see if I can adapt that in somehow. 

I don't find them.  I have worked the area.  The plan looks decent.  The real thing isn't optimzed either. Things have changed a bit since I worked there.  Ballast on the track, Lycon got more and longer tracks, and the flyash track got double-ended.

I would simplify the Sammy's track, just have two tracks running into the scrap pile.  I'm not really sure of all the trackage inside Sammy's.  The loaded gons are usually on the track closest to the main, which get pulled and the empties shoved in on that track.  They bash the cars around on their own after that.  The gons are nominal 50-footers.  Quite a few old rotary-dump coal gons are being used now.  Otherwise a lot of LBR and YARR cars, many look like Athearn and MDC 50 footers.  They have a scale in there somewhere, to keep to cars from being way overloaded.  Once in a while a UP (ex-CNW) scale test car went in, and came back out relatively unscathed.  

The cement building is not big, just holds one car being unloaded.  Corrugated metal, like a Pikestuff kit.  There are a few silos around, and truck loading areas.  The pit (Walthers) could be on the back track, with the piles near the backdrop.  They also have a decent size building (tall) to mix things together to load into the concrete trucks.  I think they can load 5-6 trucks at a time. 

The sand cars are usually 2-bay hoppers (Walthers), and the cement cars are 2-bay covered hoppers, like the Athearn ACF 2970cf cars.  There are some 2-bay rib-sided cars as well, cut down from P-S 4750s.  Soo Line had a bunch of these.  The cement guy was always hot to get the railroad owned cars emptied first, to save on car-hire and demurrage.  The private (reporting marks ending in X) cars he was less worried about.

If you want a small coal-fired power plant, check this out: UW Heater    Photo from 2007 calendar  They get cuts of 10-12 cars at a time.  Cars are shoved in from the north (Dayton St.), through the plant (Spring Street).  Good sized down hill, with a gauntlet switch at the bottom.  The frog is in the middle of the street, but the points are in an open area.  The UW then bashes them around with a front-end loader.  Two empties are shown in the usual spot.  Loads go in the plant, and down on the Freeport Spur (last remnant of the IC in MADison) past Spring St. 

WSOR 3801 wrote:

If you want a small coal-fired power plant, check this out: UW Heater    Photo from 2007 calendar  They get cuts of 10-12 cars at a time.  Cars are shoved in from the north (Dayton St.), through the plant (Spring Street).  Good sized down hill, with a gauntlet switch at the bottom.  The frog is in the middle of the street, but the points are in an open area.  The UW then bashes them around with a front-end loader.  Two empties are shown in the usual spot.  Loads go in the plant, and down on the Freeport Spur (last remnant of the IC in MADison) past Spring St.

 That is one cool prototype as well. Last time you posted that one (in the prototype forum), I made a couple of sketches for possible layout scenes for a shelf layout inspired by that coal power plant.

 Now, where did I stick those ? Ah - found them.

 These plans are "inspired by" your prototype, not an exact copy of the prototype. No idea if any of these contain ideas usable as inspiration for anyone else.

 But I am not going to be building a power plant scene anytime soon, and I'll post them on the off chance that they might inspire someone else to create a better scene for their own layout, based on this very cool coal fired powerplant prototype:

 UW_heater3: 

 UW_heater5:

 UW_heater6:

 UW_heater:

 Smile,
 Stein

Plan 3 looks close, except the loads are spotted inside the plant.  Once emptied, they roll down, onto the Freeport spur, then are usually bashed around, east of the gaunlet switch.  This would be a good place to use 18" radius curves; they are pretty tight in there.  The guys who have run SD40-2s in there marvel that they stay on the tracks during the move.

The other two plans on the bottom are pretty close to the MG+E plant, over on Blount Street.  They have a loads track, and an empty track.  The actual unloading takes place behind a large wall.  The tracks run into the plant through a door.  They use a Shuttlewagon to move cars around, with little damge done to the cars.  This is in the area of the former CNW passenger station in town, and there are a number of other tracks going every which way nearby, just to the east, off the empty track. 

MG+E map  Zoom in between Blount and Livingston for the plant itself, and up to Brearly St. for the load and empty tracks.

WSOR 3801 wrote:

I don't find them.  I have worked the area.  The plan looks decent.  The real thing isn't optimzed either. Things have changed a bit since I worked there.  Ballast on the track, Lycon got more and longer tracks, and the flyash track got double-ended. I would simplify the Sammy's track, just have two tracks running into the scrap pile.  I'm not really sure of all the trackage inside Sammy's.  The loaded gons are usually on the track closest to the main, which get pulled and the empties shoved in on that track.  They bash the cars around on their own after that.  The gons are nominal 50-footers.  Quite a few old rotary-dump coal gons are being used now.  Otherwise a lot of LBR and YARR cars, many look like Athearn and MDC 50 footers.  They have a scale in there somewhere, to keep to cars from being way overloaded.  Once in a while a UP (ex-CNW) scale test car went in, and came back out relatively unscathed.   The cement building is not big, just holds one car being unloaded.  Corrugated metal, like a Pikestuff kit.  There are a few silos around, and truck loading areas.  The pit (Walthers) could be on the back track, with the piles near the backdrop.  They also have a decent size building (tall) to mix things together to load into the concrete trucks.  I think they can load 5-6 trucks at a time.  The sand cars are usually 2-bay hoppers (Walthers), and the cement cars are 2-bay covered hoppers, like the Athearn ACF 2970cf cars.  There are some 2-bay rib-sided cars as well, cut down from P-S 4750s.  Soo Line had a bunch of these.  The cement guy was always hot to get the railroad owned cars emptied first, to save on car-hire and demurrage.  The private (reporting marks ending in X) cars he was less worried about.

THAT was probably as helpful as the maps you provided! I at least have a rough idea of how many carloads to make sure the sidings can hold. Do you happen to know of any bakerys or freight offloading facilities in the general area? I'm not too familiar with Madison, and if I could find prototypes of my other industires, that'd be awesome.

Don't worry, I didn't abandon this plan, I just haven't had nearly enough time as I'd like to work on it!

This is what I've come up with for the far right-hand side of my layout (whole plan is in my first post of this thread). I think this is less cumbersome than the first plan, but it takes a bit more space than the first version. Guess I'll just have to get creative. 

Here's a triple post and a revised full layout plan.

Changes: Industry placing, track work, narrowed the duckunder

Any comments or advice? 

Wikious wrote:

Here's a triple post and a revised full layout plan. Changes: Industry placing, track work, narrowed the duckunder Any comments or advice?

 1) You may still have some challenges with reach from the operator pit for pretty much everything along the lower part of the layout - from your gravel spur to your yard tracks - benchwork is about 4 feet wide in this area.

 2) I don't see any staging track(s) ?

 3) Your main track has only one passing siding

 4) Trains has to be moving clockwise to drive into the yard. They come out of the yard driving counterclockwise. Are you planning to back trains out of the yard, back trains into the yard, or to run the engine around after moving out on the main or before moving in from the main ?

 5) You still have only about 12" of space in front of the cupboards in the upper left hand corner - hopefully the doors and the person getting stuff from those cupboards once in a while are both pretty narrow, or you may experience trouble opening the doors and/or getting stuff from the cupboards.

 Stein, temporarily relocated from N to MN, wondering what time zone my body is in now

Finally had some time to try to figure out XtrkCad, and to mess around with the plan.

Changed a few things.

Had the main come into the yard ladder, to make life a little easier.  Did need a double slip switch, though.

Moved the engine track.

Condensed two tracks into one, in the bottom.  Many industries share a track.  

I'm sure there are other tweaks that could be made, but experience will tell where they need to be made.

WSOR 3801 wrote:

Finally had some time to try to figure out XtrkCad, and to mess around with the plan. Changed a few things. Had the main come into the yard ladder, to make life a little easier.  Did need a double slip switch, though. Moved the engine track. Condensed two tracks into one, in the bottom.  Many industries share a track.   I'm sure there are other tweaks that could be made, but experience will tell where they need to be made.

I really like what you've done with my plan- yard layout is still a crippling weakness of mine. I think now I'll turn that runaround in the top left corner into a staging. It'll go under the layout and level out near the south edge of the operating pit. I'll get a picture of that soon.

Would probably still need the runaround to service the gravel/cement unloader, unless trains would come out of the yard to make it a trailing point move.  The yard should work better.  If the plastic/boxcar track isn't needed, could use a normal switch instead of a double-slip.  One of the yard tracks could be designated as an interchange track, when the foreign road comes to pickup/deliver they would use that track, unless it all doesn't fit.  

Using the CAD is sometimes harder than just laying track.  I tried using #6 switches for the first two in the ladder, then #4 the rest of the way (larger radius "S" curves, better reliability).  Using flextrack, the extra curves to get to the straight yard tracks isn't a problem.  The CAD didn't like it.  

The track past the gravel loadout on the top could be a foreign line.  Have it start dropping down, could go behind/under the scrapyard.  They could switch out the gravel loadout, then disappear with their other interchange traffic.  The UP and ICE interchange jobs in Janesville run with 4-axle power, the ICE drops away.

Many other options are available.  Flop down some track and run trains, see what works, what doesn't, and what you actually like to do.   DCC makes it a bit easier, can have multiple trains running in this small space.