Red Rock Northern Plan MR June 07

I'm not Jerry, but I'll just make a couple of comments. Overall, I think the plan has a lot to recommend it. I like the shared turntable idea, there is at least some staging, and it gives a sense of going from point "A" to point "B", which a lot of plans for small- to mid-size rooms lack. The continuous-running option is nice to have. I'd suggest building the whole layout higher than suggested to make the duckunder easier to negotiate when you didn't want to lift out the removable section.

Having said that, there are a couple of things I find as concerns. There is very little clearance for the staging tracks below the track above. With a little rearrangement, it would be easy to have those tracks accessible from above behind a low backdrop or building flats, as I did on this layout. This might allow additional and/or a little longer staging tracks. (I think the staging track labels might be flip-flopped as well in the published track plan)

Too-short switchbacks are another pet peeve of mine and the one in front of the feed store is a challenge. It looks like there's only about 8" of clearance behind the turnout on that short leg, which might be enough room for an engine and one car, if both are short. It will be kind of tedious switching out the longer team track and lumber supply industry one car at a time (at best).

Of course, this is a little better than a recent layout featured in MR that apparently requires five back-and-forth moves to get a car to one industry! But I digress ...

The long industry siding in Red Rock will also be a little tricky to switch, since it must be accessed from the hidden trackage.

These are both examples of ways to squeeze in more industry trackage, but I think there might be better alternatives.

Personally, I find the three mines on short spurs tucked into the corners of the layout a little trite, but I've seen a lot of track plans and may just be jaded. I might forgo one of these and make one of the others a little larger with multiple tracks just for variety.

I would also vary the edges of the layout a bit more, which might allow room for an industry or two imagined to be "in the aisle".

As far as the track plan drawing itself, the MR artists use a general drawing program to develop the magazine art. So the track plans we see in the magazines (which look great) are not indicative of the tools the author used to draw the track plan in the first place. For example, one can compare the CAD drawing I submitted on the web page I referenced earlier to the much better-looking art the artists created when it was published in Model Railroad Planning 2004.

Overall, a good plan, but I think a few tweaks would make it more enjoyable to build and operate.

Byron

I really liked the RRN plan too. It was a bit to large, so I made a similar but slightly smaller plan in XtrkCad to make it fit in my tiny storage room (210x290cm). My plan is basically a mirror image of the original plan; the twice-around main, the shared turntable and the X-factor staging are all still there, but the sidings and industries are a bit different.

I also used a bridge instead of a short tunnel at the lower wall, removed the Big Bug Mine, and replaced Iron King Mine with an interchange track. The enginehouse wouldn't fit in the upper left corner as in the original plan, so I made plans for a removable roundhouse section inside the layout corner.

I also discovered this layout plan as well.  I was torn between this plan and the Boggs landing & Trottwater from a few years ago.  I like this one because it can be built in modules.  Still not a big fan of "round and round" layout design, but the twice around is a compromise. 

I will most likely build this with a few tweaks - mine will have more of a seaport theme and no mines.  I'll rework the yard in Red Rock to be smaller to give room for the seaport.  I was also concerned about the clearance of the staging tracks, but since the tracks leading to staging were already under the layout (tunnels) I don't think there will be a problem.

I would love to share ideas with others here who are building or designing their layout around this plan.  If anyone wants to post their layout files, please do so.  I'm still trying to get a handle on layout planning tools.

Thanks for all the replies.  I'll be sending out an e mail to Jerry this weekend.

I have a couple minor changes and one big I'm working on now.  First, I agree the switch back at Granite Creek just is pushing it too much. I am adding a turnout across from the depot for the lumber yard.   I'm also moving the feed store closer to the layout edge and I'm going to have the spur track go the opposite side of the feed store to break up the linear look.  I'm looking at adding a spur that goes out off this line for a future small peninsula.  I'm thinking of modeling this as abandon track for interest until then.

I'll also be deleting the Big Bug mine and the passing track to open up the area little.

I want to add a passing track across from the yard in Red Rock.  I might just have the line go all the way to the turntable.  This should open up the yard pretty well for working cars.  I'll alsoo be setting this up to be used as a progaming track since it has easy access and will be isolated with a DPDT switch.

I really like having trains in motion but just going around and around gets old after awhile.  The thing about this plan is it really gives the feel of the trains going somewhere. The only thing that detracts from this is having the train enter the tunnel only to pop out a foot or two away.  My big change that I am working on now is instead of the twice around as shown I will have the twice around hidden under the main layout.  This will truly give the trains the illusion of going and coming from somewhere else.  This should also allow for some bigger staging.  The thing I'm trying to decide is if I want to also keep the twice around as shown also.  What I am contemplating is tying the two main lines together near Gorges Gorge and having the mainline that runs up to the Yellow Jacket mine as a spur line.   It will dead end at the Iron King mine.   This should open the area above the town a little too.

I'm reading up on module construction right now since that is how this is going to have to be built.  I'm trying to keep it to about 8 pieces.  I need to figure out where the logical places to put the breaks in the track plane are.

I'll be powering this with a Digitrax Zephyr and 4 - 8 power districts.  I have an Atlas MP 15DC and an Atlas GP 40 for the power right now - you have to have at least 2 locos or why go DCC.   I also ordered the Walthers 90' turntable for it. These are coming down in price and even getting a little hard to find in stock.

Thanks again for the replies.  I'll post updates as thing happen

ratled

After looking at the plans - the staging track does not appear to be staging at all - it's actually hidden/concealed trackage.  The elevations given for the staging track is 0" and the line above it is listed at 3.5" - not enough room to be considered staging.  You would need to access this trackage from the other side of the wall.

The staging line would have to have an elevation of about -3.5" to be usefull (consider it another level below the main line).

Any thoughts?

gcodori

The elevations given for the staging track is 0" and the line above it is listed at 3.5" - not enough room to be considered staging.  You would need to access this trackage from the other side of the wall.

The staging line would have to have an elevation of about -3.5" to be usefull (consider it another level below the main line).

Any thoughts?

Yes, it's probably too tight to be practical. You need room for fingers, not just for trains. That's why I wrote earlier in the thread:

cuyama

Having said that, there are a couple of things I find as concerns. There is very little clearance for the staging tracks below the track above. With a little rearrangement, it would be easy to have those tracks accessible from above behind a low backdrop or building flats

Byron

Just an update for those interested.  I have been able to exchange a few thoughts with Jerry Boudreaux, the designer of the Red Rock and Northern.   He did in fact build this layout.  In Sn3 to boot!  He did pass along these comments that might help those who are building it.....

Several folks have asked me about these things.

The upper level of track was supported with metal shelf hangers (flat, steel, angles about 4" X 4" x 3/8" wide. Locate the studs in your wall, mark these locations on the sub roadbed, screw the sub roadbed to the brackets from the bottom up, then screw the brackets to the wall at the appropriate height. Roadbed and track can go on top of the sub roadbed in the normal manner.

4' long masonite (hardboard) tapered sections were cut to fit in front of the hidden track and just tall enough to lean up against the upper sub roadbed. I laid these sections flat and applied rock castings to them, blended the castings and colored them. These sections merely lean up against the upper sub roadbed with bushes or structures concealing the joints. They simply lifted up and out when access was required.

Here's how I laid out the curve behind the roundhouse:

Basic radius was 24" with a 2 ½" set back from the wall

Therefore, the center point of the radius was 26 ½" (24 + 2 ½) from both walls

Measuring from the corner down each wall 26 ½" should be the end of the curve and beginning of a #5 turnout.

Small easements here are helpful but not mandatory. Be sure to leave the 1-2" of straight track found on most commercial switches in front of the points. This gives the trucks a chance to straighten out prior to hitting the points.   Coming off the curved leg of each turnout is the mainline that goes through the tunnel portals. These mainlines continued to curve a bit after they exit the switch.

You are correct. This is the critical part of this layout. I laid it out first on butcher paper full size then, using a pounce wheel (micromark) transferred the plan to my plywood. All other tracks in the towns were laid out relative to this curve.

Something else: Red Rock yard and turntable are ½" lower than the other town. Therefore, the curve we are talking about is on an ascending grade moving clockwise. I used 2% or about ¼" per foot.

A BIG thanks to Jerry for the plan and the additional info!!!!

ratled

By the way, here is what is my (ratled's) current track plan.  It's a conceptual view not an exact plan.  The red lines are where the breaks are since 2 sections will have to mobile when not in use.

I'm working on  layout design that is inspired by the Red Rock Northern. I have a larger room, but have some have windows and an entrance on two walls in one corner to work around. Since have longer runs I will have greater changes in elevation but still have a 2% max. I've also tried to create wider separation between the upper and lower track to allow for additional scenery.

I'll have to study Jerry's  new plan and see if any of his changes will work for me.

Thanks for the update. 

Mike

Sorry about any confusion but that is my version of the plan not Jerry's. I did make an edit that should reduce any confusion.  Jerry did build it as descried in the MR article.

 ratled

Ed,  

Sorry, my mistake,  I like the additional staging. That's one thing I'm trying to add to my plan. 

 Mike 

Byron,

I'm not the brightest bulb in the bin so be patient with me. You said that the hidden staging tracks could be accessable from above behind flats. Are you saying to put the staging on the lower track level or upper? If the lower, how are you doing that and having longer staging?

Would you increase the grade to get better clearance? 3.5" doesn't seem like enough when you consider the plywood/homosote thickness at 1". That only gives you 2.5" clearance from top bottom deck to bottom of lower deck not counting the track height.

I like the twice around concept. I like to see trains run and that will thrill my grandsons. There is just enough switching to do me fine.

I agree with Svein that the short tunnel needs to be a bridge. And with he and Ratled on eliminating Big Bug mine and the passing siding.

Thanks,

Fred

Hi gentlemen,

I've been drawing and calculating a long time ago to understand the grades on the RRN.

I found them pretty steep, maybe this drawing is helpful:

On the right side is a river between 2 tracks only 3" away from each other at most; IMHO not enough space for appropriate banks.

Smile

Paul

derf

You said that the hidden staging tracks could be accessable from above behind flats. Are you saying to put the staging on the lower track level or upper? If the lower, how are you doing that and having longer staging?

It would be a reworking of the track plan, unfortunately not a trivial change. I'm suggesting that the staging tracks wouldn't have any other benchwork above them so that they could be reached from above and could wrap further around the layout. With this better access, you could add turnouts to increase the number of staging tracks, as on this layout from my site.

For more clearance at the over-under crossings, such as near "George's Gorge", you could  thin the overhead subroadbed to just 1/8" to 1/4" stiff material for only the segment over the lower track -- it's not necessary to keep the full Homasote/Plywood sandwich for a short overcrossing.

As Paul points out, the grades as published are a bit stiff. I wouldn't increase the grade except as the very last resort.

In short, the twice-around concept plus staging is terrific; but the implementation within that particular plan could be better for long-term maintenance and reliability.  

Byron

Byron,

My room is now 11'x12'. Assuming the 12' side is the yard/TT side. And assuming a 4" seperation between decks. I am thinking of starting my grade coming out of the tunnel behind the roundhouse before the TO with a 1% grade for 2' = .25" up. Then going into a 2% grade for 15' = 3.5" and ending with another 1% grade for 2' = .25" to make up the 4" separation. Are my calcs correct?

I'm trying to get away from analysis paralysis. I'm not good at desigining but I can see what what I want it to look like in my mind.

Thanks for your help,

Fred 

derf

I am thinking of starting my grade coming out of the tunnel behind the roundhouse before the TO with a 1% grade for 2' = .25" up. Then going into a 2% grade for 15' = 3.5" and ending with another 1% grade for 2' = .25" to make up the 4" separation.

Strictly speaking, the math is correct, but a 1% grade is not the same as the vertical transition into the grade that folks have suggested. A true vertical transition over a foot or two probably only gains about 1/16", not 1/4"

Assuming an overall run of 19 feet, and assuming that you allow 1.5 feet at each end for a transition, the remaining grade of 16 feet will still be just over 2%, so that part is fine. But you'll want to check that you have allowed enough space to insure that the track grade will not change within any turnout. 

Of course, this won't by itself solve one of the basic challenges with the published plan of difficult access to the staging tracks if you place other tracks above them. If that's where you are working to create the 4" railhead-to-railhead elevation change, you may find that it's still not enough handroom to reach in there to solve problems.

Best of luck.

Hi Guys, I've been following this thread and the RRN one on page 2 of Layouts for at least a week.  I'm new, and am trying the get the track plan nailed down so I can finally start to build my first layout, which will be  the RRN.  I've also just started to learn Rail Modeller and am sketching RRN in it.  I really like the RRN and would like to include the recommended mods discussed so far.  I've seen Ratled's, Byron's  and Jerry's comments.  I really like Ratled's approach to the staging and lower level loop arounds, but one question I have is that if I still need to have the lift out in the layout, then the full square staging level will not work for me since it won't have  a lift out, correct?  Also, I am planning to extend the layout length to 15'.  So maybe this could allow room for staging to be on the main level.  If that's true, can you recommend where I might locate the staging track.  I think Byron mentioned that maybe they could be installed behind a wall.  Thanks for your responses.  Rich