Derailing problem on a Lionel 022 turnout

[Anonymous]

I have four Lionel 022 turnouts (2 right, 2 left) on my layout set up to allow cross overs from an inner loop to an outer loop & back again. The left turnout on the inner loop has been the site of many derailments.

The turnout is set for running straight through. If I run the locomotive over the turnout at a fair clip (about 1/2 to 2/3 full throttle), the locomotive derails.

When I inspect the track, I find that the two trunouts meet at an angle slightly less than 180 degrees (about 175 or 170 or so). Could this be the cause of the derailing?

I think I can straigten out the joinging of the two trunouts by replacing one of the two 10 inch straights between the outer two switches with 2 5.5 inch straights & maybe doing a little cutting.

Anybody got any ideas?

Thanks!

Tony

[Anonymous]

I have four Lionel 022 turnouts (2 right, 2 left) on my layout set up to allow cross overs from an inner loop to an outer loop & back again. The left turnout on the inner loop has been the site of many derailments.

The turnout is set for running straight through. If I run the locomotive over the turnout at a fair clip (about 1/2 to 2/3 full throttle), the locomotive derails.

When I inspect the track, I find that the two trunouts meet at an angle slightly less than 180 degrees (about 175 or 170 or so). Could this be the cause of the derailing?

I think I can straigten out the joinging of the two trunouts by replacing one of the two 10 inch straights between the outer two switches with 2 5.5 inch straights & maybe doing a little cutting.

Anybody got any ideas?

Thanks!

Tony

[Anonymous]

Mke sure that there is a smooth transition for either selection. Also watch that switch in motion. Does it open/close by it self? I had a bad switch that was doing that. I had a funny fealing, but I had to see it to point it out!
Good Luck!

I have an 6110 steamer that likes to FLY of the track on turns. I actualy have to "Drive" this loco! I guess thats close enough to the real thing for me :)

[Anonymous]

Mke sure that there is a smooth transition for either selection. Also watch that switch in motion. Does it open/close by it self? I had a bad switch that was doing that. I had a funny fealing, but I had to see it to point it out!
Good Luck!

I have an 6110 steamer that likes to FLY of the track on turns. I actualy have to "Drive" this loco! I guess thats close enough to the real thing for me :)

[lionelsoni]

Some Lionel steam locomotives, those with 2-wheel pilot trucks, oversteer on curves and will climb the rail on the inside if given half a chance, for example, a switch frog. The pivot for the front truck should be about halfway between the pilot wheels and the middle of the drivers; it is actually much farther forward. So, when the front of the locomotive swings to the outside of a curve, the pilot wheels steer sharply inward. I modified my 2026 Adriatic by bending the original pivot up out of the way and attaching the tongue of the pilot truck to a metal extension strip that now pivots on a screw tapped into the front cross-member of the motor.
If your derailing problem is associated with a 2-x-x locomotive, this might be the cure.

[lionelsoni]

Some Lionel steam locomotives, those with 2-wheel pilot trucks, oversteer on curves and will climb the rail on the inside if given half a chance, for example, a switch frog. The pivot for the front truck should be about halfway between the pilot wheels and the middle of the drivers; it is actually much farther forward. So, when the front of the locomotive swings to the outside of a curve, the pilot wheels steer sharply inward. I modified my 2026 Adriatic by bending the original pivot up out of the way and attaching the tongue of the pilot truck to a metal extension strip that now pivots on a screw tapped into the front cross-member of the motor.
If your derailing problem is associated with a 2-x-x locomotive, this might be the cure.

[Anonymous]

The locomotive in question is a 4-4-0 that came with my son's "Great Train Robbery" set. I'm really not inclined to start modifying the locomotive at this point, since:

1. It's still under warranty
2. It's not a 2-X-X
3. I'm more inclined to believe the problem is with my track work at this point.

When I say the locomotive derails, what's happening is the train seems to follow the branch on the switch. The switch is a left-hander, and the locomotive pulls off to the left when it hits the points.

I went out to the hobby shop today & bought a few extra 1/2 straights & replaced one of the 10 inchers with a full 5.5 incher & another that had to have about a half inch cut off. This straightened out the angle between the two consecutive switches. The locomotive still derails if I run it through there flying, and in something like the same manner, but it's not as pronounced.

I might try putting a straight-edge against the rails to make sure they're really straight & adjust as necessary.

Incidentally, my new 2-8-0 TMCC locomotive doesn't seem to go fast enough to have the same problem. It seems that it's shorting out or overloading the puny transformer I'm usingn when it goes through the switch when it's thrown. I'm eventually going to upgrade the transformers, but first, gotta get some TMCC hardware.

Iceman:

When you say "watch that switch in motion", do you mean that the frogs move toward the turn-out direction on their own? Is it a wiring problem inside the turnout, or is it a lose screw/bolt/nut, or what?

Thanks!

Tony

[Anonymous]

The locomotive in question is a 4-4-0 that came with my son's "Great Train Robbery" set. I'm really not inclined to start modifying the locomotive at this point, since:

1. It's still under warranty
2. It's not a 2-X-X
3. I'm more inclined to believe the problem is with my track work at this point.

When I say the locomotive derails, what's happening is the train seems to follow the branch on the switch. The switch is a left-hander, and the locomotive pulls off to the left when it hits the points.

I went out to the hobby shop today & bought a few extra 1/2 straights & replaced one of the 10 inchers with a full 5.5 incher & another that had to have about a half inch cut off. This straightened out the angle between the two consecutive switches. The locomotive still derails if I run it through there flying, and in something like the same manner, but it's not as pronounced.

I might try putting a straight-edge against the rails to make sure they're really straight & adjust as necessary.

Incidentally, my new 2-8-0 TMCC locomotive doesn't seem to go fast enough to have the same problem. It seems that it's shorting out or overloading the puny transformer I'm usingn when it goes through the switch when it's thrown. I'm eventually going to upgrade the transformers, but first, gotta get some TMCC hardware.

Iceman:

When you say "watch that switch in motion", do you mean that the frogs move toward the turn-out direction on their own? Is it a wiring problem inside the turnout, or is it a lose screw/bolt/nut, or what?

Thanks!

Tony

[Anonymous]

Mine would move with the vibration of the loco passing thru...then 7 cars in CRASH!
Yea it did it by itself! I dont know if it can be fixed, I plan on getting a new switch when it comes time to build a permenent layout.

[Anonymous]

Mine would move with the vibration of the loco passing thru...then 7 cars in CRASH!
Yea it did it by itself! I dont know if it can be fixed, I plan on getting a new switch when it comes time to build a permenent layout.

[Anonymous]

Ah, OK.

Right now, I'm just testing the layout and I'm only running the locomotive.

There's an article somewhere on this site about the different track options and it says in there that 022 switches tend to derail small locomotives, so this may be my problem. I guess I may have to just run the locomotive through the switch slowly.

Tony

[Anonymous]

Ah, OK.

Right now, I'm just testing the layout and I'm only running the locomotive.

There's an article somewhere on this site about the different track options and it says in there that 022 switches tend to derail small locomotives, so this may be my problem. I guess I may have to just run the locomotive through the switch slowly.

Tony

[Anonymous]

Tony, I'd try another locomotive before giving up on that switch. Lionel's modern General (the 4-4-0 in the Great Train Robbery set) is extremely lightweight since it is almost entirely made of plastic. It practically floats over switches, so those front four wheels can easily derail with enough lateral momentum. 022 switches aren't perfect, but they are considered among the best tubular track turnouts available in O gauge. For that reason, a lot of hobbyists track down used ones to tune up or recondition.

By the way, I just picked up the 2003 version of that same set (now with a CW-80 transformer and FasTrack) two weeks ago and am testing it on the floor at home.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Tony, I'd try another locomotive before giving up on that switch. Lionel's modern General (the 4-4-0 in the Great Train Robbery set) is extremely lightweight since it is almost entirely made of plastic. It practically floats over switches, so those front four wheels can easily derail with enough lateral momentum. 022 switches aren't perfect, but they are considered among the best tubular track turnouts available in O gauge. For that reason, a lot of hobbyists track down used ones to tune up or recondition.

By the way, I just picked up the 2003 version of that same set (now with a CW-80 transformer and FasTrack) two weeks ago and am testing it on the floor at home.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Jim:

Thanks for the reply.

Well, I do have the new 2-8-0 Consoldation locomotive with TMCC / Railsounds / Odyssey, and that thing weighs a ton compared to the General. It also doesn't seem to go as fast as the General (probably because of the weight difference)...

Tony

[Anonymous]

Jim:

Thanks for the reply.

Well, I do have the new 2-8-0 Consoldation locomotive with TMCC / Railsounds / Odyssey, and that thing weighs a ton compared to the General. It also doesn't seem to go as fast as the General (probably because of the weight difference)...

Tony

[Anonymous]

JimGrimm:

I held a straight edge up to the outside rails where the two switches come together & I can plainly see that they're still not at a 180 degree angle to each other. I'm going to have to lengthen the other leg to make them absolutely straight.

I think I just learned a lesson about track laying for my permanent layout to be done in a couple of years....

Tony

[Anonymous]

JimGrimm:

I held a straight edge up to the outside rails where the two switches come together & I can plainly see that they're still not at a 180 degree angle to each other. I'm going to have to lengthen the other leg to make them absolutely straight.

I think I just learned a lesson about track laying for my permanent layout to be done in a couple of years....

Tony

[Anonymous]

Hi; just going over a few of the replys and i have been having the same problem with derailing, also with the general the heavyer loco,s go through ok but with the lighter general i have added a little weight to the loco,s front trucks and also to the overall weight of the loco. i took it apart and added some weight to the underside of the plastic body and reasambled the loco and it goes through real nice.. My layout is u shaped 24ft in length and 8ft wide and thinking about adding some length to it my basement is 26in length and 16 1/2 ft wide so i have plenty of room you might try adding weight toyour general my grandson likes the way it goes through the s/w,s i still have alot to do on the layout ain,t that what they say when you think your finished you got to expand mine is going to add an upper level going to the upper level on the outside bake run it is long enough and with a lower track going under some of the mountains that are going to be installed, the mountains on each end will be about 61/2 ft tall from floor to the top, i am using K-line 42" turn outs on the lower levels and Lionel O22,s on the upper level, 42" curves and 31" curves on the upper level. the layout is built on 2x4 legs with 1x4 runners with 1/2" plywood, strong i want to run th full length of my basement and leave about a foot and half on each end to work/repair the layouts. I moswtly have postwar Lionel with some from the early 70,s eara 2026, 2025, 671, 2023, 2022, 665steamer and some Marx in there and a marx wind up that can go around the layout twice with tender and box w/ caboose all tinplatwell it has been good hopefully this information will do you some good for i know i was frustated for a while till i took the general apartwell this is boxcarwilly signing off for now*********

[Anonymous]

Hi; just going over a few of the replys and i have been having the same problem with derailing, also with the general the heavyer loco,s go through ok but with the lighter general i have added a little weight to the loco,s front trucks and also to the overall weight of the loco. i took it apart and added some weight to the underside of the plastic body and reasambled the loco and it goes through real nice.. My layout is u shaped 24ft in length and 8ft wide and thinking about adding some length to it my basement is 26in length and 16 1/2 ft wide so i have plenty of room you might try adding weight toyour general my grandson likes the way it goes through the s/w,s i still have alot to do on the layout ain,t that what they say when you think your finished you got to expand mine is going to add an upper level going to the upper level on the outside bake run it is long enough and with a lower track going under some of the mountains that are going to be installed, the mountains on each end will be about 61/2 ft tall from floor to the top, i am using K-line 42" turn outs on the lower levels and Lionel O22,s on the upper level, 42" curves and 31" curves on the upper level. the layout is built on 2x4 legs with 1x4 runners with 1/2" plywood, strong i want to run th full length of my basement and leave about a foot and half on each end to work/repair the layouts. I moswtly have postwar Lionel with some from the early 70,s eara 2026, 2025, 671, 2023, 2022, 665steamer and some Marx in there and a marx wind up that can go around the layout twice with tender and box w/ caboose all tinplatwell it has been good hopefully this information will do you some good for i know i was frustated for a while till i took the general apartwell this is boxcarwilly signing off for now*********

[Anonymous]

My old 4-4-0 General had some problems. I was able to attach a quarter to the front pilot to add some weight to it. Problem gone, increased value my 25 cents (ha ha)

[Anonymous]

My old 4-4-0 General had some problems. I was able to attach a quarter to the front pilot to add some weight to it. Problem gone, increased value my 25 cents (ha ha)

[Anonymous]

Update:

The switches were mailed to Lionel today by my wife. I wanted to get them in the mail last week, but I couldn't find the time to write a letter explaining the problem until last night. And I didn't have a box big enough to mail the things in.

Anyway, the letter that Lionel sent with the RA number & label said that they'd do their best to get them back to me within a week of their receiving them, so I'm hoping to have a final update next week.

Tony

[Anonymous]

Update:

The switches were mailed to Lionel today by my wife. I wanted to get them in the mail last week, but I couldn't find the time to write a letter explaining the problem until last night. And I didn't have a box big enough to mail the things in.

Anyway, the letter that Lionel sent with the RA number & label said that they'd do their best to get them back to me within a week of their receiving them, so I'm hoping to have a final update next week.

Tony

[Anonymous]

Cool, I hope they can find / fix that problem for ya! I know how annoying this has been for you guys!

[Anonymous]

Cool, I hope they can find / fix that problem for ya! I know how annoying this has been for you guys!

[Anonymous]

I received a package from UPS today. In it were four brand new switches. Inspection showed the points to be much tighter and not nearly as sloppy as the set returned to them last week.

I put them onto the layout tonight & ran the H9 Consolidation. It ran fine through both of the switches on the inside track when I ran it around the loop in a clockwise direction. However, the pilot wheels on the Consolidation derailed when they got to the facing points on the right hand turnout when I ran it counter clockwise.

I made sure that the switch I put in this position on the layout had the tightest points of the pair of right handers. The fact that the consolidation continues to derail leads me to believe that the problem is with the Consolidation itself.

I noticed that there were no problems when the Consolidation backed through the switches; the derailment only occurs when the locmotive is facing in the direction that leads it to go counter clockwise when it is in forward.

I'm going to try more experiments tomorrow. I am going to pull out my 44 ton Switcher & run that through both loops in both directions. And I'm going to try the JLC Hudson as well, and probably General Hotshot.

If they run fine, I'd really like to try running the Consolidation on another layout with a different brand of track to see if the problem is the Consolidation or what.

However, I'm probably just not going to run the Consolidation counter clockwise in forward any more.

Tony

[Anonymous]

I received a package from UPS today. In it were four brand new switches. Inspection showed the points to be much tighter and not nearly as sloppy as the set returned to them last week.

I put them onto the layout tonight & ran the H9 Consolidation. It ran fine through both of the switches on the inside track when I ran it around the loop in a clockwise direction. However, the pilot wheels on the Consolidation derailed when they got to the facing points on the right hand turnout when I ran it counter clockwise.

I made sure that the switch I put in this position on the layout had the tightest points of the pair of right handers. The fact that the consolidation continues to derail leads me to believe that the problem is with the Consolidation itself.

I noticed that there were no problems when the Consolidation backed through the switches; the derailment only occurs when the locmotive is facing in the direction that leads it to go counter clockwise when it is in forward.

I'm going to try more experiments tomorrow. I am going to pull out my 44 ton Switcher & run that through both loops in both directions. And I'm going to try the JLC Hudson as well, and probably General Hotshot.

If they run fine, I'd really like to try running the Consolidation on another layout with a different brand of track to see if the problem is the Consolidation or what.

However, I'm probably just not going to run the Consolidation counter clockwise in forward any more.

Tony

[Anonymous]

Hey, guys.

Well, at this point, I'm pretty convinced the problem is with the Consolidation. A member on the OGR forum with the same engine claims that the problem is that the pilot wheels on the Consolidation are not far enough apart. He posted a hand drawn & scanned drawing showing how to spread the pilots apart using a block & a couple of wedges.

I'm going to give this a shot & see how that works.

Tony

[Anonymous]

Hey, guys.

Well, at this point, I'm pretty convinced the problem is with the Consolidation. A member on the OGR forum with the same engine claims that the problem is that the pilot wheels on the Consolidation are not far enough apart. He posted a hand drawn & scanned drawing showing how to spread the pilots apart using a block & a couple of wedges.

I'm going to give this a shot & see how that works.

Tony