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Gg1 frame needs straightening

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Gg1 frame needs straightening
Posted by stuartmit on Tuesday, February 14, 2023 9:28 AM

I picked up a 2360 GG1 and I can see that the frame in someway has been deformed and has a belly so that perhaps as much as 3/32"of the side of the frame is visible below the body. The effect of this is that the driving trucks Are on the rail, but the lead and trailing trucks are slightly lifted above, and the locomotive does not stay on the track going around any curves. Is there a solution to straightening this frame short of buying a new one and then completely moving all the guts from the old deformed frame to a new one?  that sounds like a tremendous amount of work. I have the classic toy trains from July 2013 in which they spend a lot of time on maintaining this locomotive, but no, where do I see that they address the question of a deformed frame. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, February 14, 2023 11:05 AM

If it's a sheet metal frame and it's bent it should be able to be bent back to where it should be.  I don't have one myself but if it was mine the first thing I'd try (if it seems possible) is put on a heavy set of work gloves and try to bend it back by hand.  Of course I can't see what you're working with so I'll admit my comment may be ridiculous.   

Of course, there's always the possibility of getting another frame from a parts dealer but you're right, transferring the guts would be a PITA.

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Posted by stuartmit on Tuesday, February 14, 2023 6:24 PM

I took a shot at flattening out the frame and can't tell if I improved it any. I did also try to closely study in what way the leading truck comes up off the rail. In some cases, I eliminated trouble by careful inspection of my track work, which I'll admit isn't the best.   I see that where I come out of Gargraves into O22 switches, the slight vertical misalignment isn't helpful. When the first powered truck goes up onto the lionel o22 from Gargraves, the leading truck lifts and especially on the curve branc, failure is almost certain. I would have expected that for a toy, it would have been more forgiving.

Still and all, the fact remains i Have the track I have, other locos to tolerate it and I hope I can get this GG1 To run. 

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Posted by philo426 on Tuesday, February 14, 2023 8:02 PM

Is it a diecast or sheet metal frame?

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Posted by stuartmit on Wednesday, February 15, 2023 6:52 AM

Sitting in meetin but paying no attention 

 

frame is sheet metal.


Don't have my repair manual or CTT article  with me. But I Think if I could do it only disconnecting the  wires passing through the frame, then frame replacement might not be too bad—I believe there  are only 2 wires which pass through the frame, the current  pickup wires I believe to a terminal on e-unit   But leaving ALL other elements wired together even as they are removed 


remove motor mounting screws and move geared trucks. Then unscrew everything else on frame—e unit, horn etc, still on frame and move all together to new frame, still wired together, and re-solder pickup wires 

Hmmm.  Could that work? Want to minimize soldering 

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Posted by stuartmit on Tuesday, February 21, 2023 6:50 AM

is original frame aluminum?

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, February 21, 2023 12:11 PM

stuartmit

is original frame aluminum?

I very much doubt it, to my knowledge they used sheet steel.  One way to check is use a magnet, if it sticks it's steel.  If it doesn't it's something else.

 

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Posted by 8ntruck on Tuesday, February 21, 2023 11:14 PM

Yup. Lionel used a lot of stamped sheet steel frames.  During the post-war year's, the frames were finished with a black oxide, similar to gun bling.

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Posted by stuartmit on Wednesday, February 22, 2023 6:46 AM

Have replaced bent axles in a pilot truck but still not trouble free, although better. Frame still has a look to it  as if it was bowed from end to end. Don't know how it could have gotten that way; if loco was dropped and landed straight down, the impact would would have been taken by the coupler, but not by the frame to any great extent. That's because of the way the 4 wheel trucks are mounted. Also, I Was reading the article in CTT re GG1 tune up which describes the pilot truck as troublesome. So maybe the derailments I have experienced can't be eliminated because of my mix of dissimliar track (Gargraves with 022 switches); even with adapter pins at the junctions. and I really don't have any thing good for the side of switches where non derail control rails demand a fiber pin; occasionally at those location, I remove the fiber pin, use an steel Gargraves adapter pin, and cut a gap into the Gargraves track 2" up the track. This guarantees smooth transitio, if a longer control rail. But frequently I get a derailment in the middle of the switch!

I'm thinking of buying a resale steel frame from parts guy, swapping in, and looking for better performancr, but that's a lot of work for an uncertain outcome. 

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Posted by philo426 on Wednesday, February 22, 2023 9:06 AM

Can you post some pics?

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Posted by stuartmit on Wednesday, February 22, 2023 9:16 AM

Ha!  I'm. 77!  I will have to find a grandchild!

 

maybe 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, February 22, 2023 10:08 AM

stuartmit

Ha!  I'm. 77!  I will have to find a grandchild!

 

maybe 

 

Or a friendly neighborhood teenager!  I think todays kids know more about IT than us geezers will EVER know!

But on the other hand they'd be stumped by a rotary dial phone!  

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, February 25, 2023 12:16 PM

I don't know if this is pertinent to your situation but this comes from a Ray Plummer "Questions & Answers" column in the October 2000 issue of CTT.  It concerns traction problems with a 2332 GG1. I'll quote it:

CTT readers (delete) and (delete) suggest that one way to improve perfomance in Lionel no. 2332 GG1 electrics is to ensure the lead weight is properly installed. They note that "the 2332 originally came with a lead weight that is supposed to be located over the pilot closest to the motor truck."

If it is placed on the other end the motor truck will not have as much traction.

(delete) concurred, adding that years ago he bought one of the classic engines and restored it, but noted that it didn't pull as many cars. He later discovered he had improperly installed the weight when reassembling the locomotive and that once corrected the locomotive could pull up to ten cars.  (end quote)

I wonder if this might help with your tracking issues as well?

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Posted by stuartmit on Tuesday, February 28, 2023 4:43 PM

Thanks very much.  In looking at my copy of Greenberg's repair an operating manual for Lionell trains, 1945 to 1969, I see the ballast weight referred to in the section on the 2332GG1. But I don't see it on the 2360 exploded view of parts, nor is it in my locomotive, so that is not a route to salvation.

I do now have in hand, a replacement frame, and a friend of mine is going to help me to move all the guts of the locomotive off my present frame, which I think has become deformed, and remount all on this frame I bought on eBay.  I did go as far as to remove the locomotive chassis as a unit including all motors and E unit, etc., from the locomotive cover, and set the new frame in the locomotive cover. It definitely sits differently, and seems not to have the belly in it that I perceive to be in the one that I have currently. So I am hopeful this will cure the problem , although after an awful lot of work. 

 

There is no question that when I look closely at the current leading truck, it seems to be floating above the rail, and although the flanges do barely dip below the rail head, that surface of the wheel that should roll directly on top of the rail is not down on it.

So I struggle on! Thanks for advice. 

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Posted by stuartmit on Thursday, March 2, 2023 2:53 PM

 I worked on the unit today, and my friend who was leading the way, noticed the trucks were not touching on all four wheels; there was perhaps 1/16" or a bit more, gap on one of the four wheels. It is possible the belly i see in the frame is not the cause of my problem. So have to see if my repair guy can correct that. I believe the same was true on both ends with either truck in the leading position; the performance was a bit unsatisfactory on a dead flat loop of track on my friend's  layout. And my layout has track where the track is not all perfectly flat, and so every point where a level higher track gives way to a grade right at the point of intersection of two sections, we get a "drop-off" or "step-up" and frequent derail. I have another mid 1950's gg1 which doesnt do this. In the reverse sense, anywhere where i have a transition from Gargraves to 022 switches which I use, the loco "climbs" a mini hill in transition. for a bit, the drive truck angles up as it goes across the boundary, and this angle results in the pilot truck lifting up and off the rails. The pilot truck eventually drops back to the rail head once the boundary is crossed, but particularly on the curved leg of the switch, the pilot truck does not drop down between the rails as is necessary, and a derailment is the result. Probably I needed to test my track laying with the GG1 so I could shim the junctions as I went; now it will be a pain in the a** retrofit job.  

"Bother" as Winnie the Pooh said.

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Posted by philo426 on Thursday, March 2, 2023 3:31 PM

Something is knackered up but it is subtle and not easily corrected .What is the condition of the body shell?

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Posted by stuartmit on Thursday, March 2, 2023 7:07 PM

No problems with body shell where mounting on chassis is concerned.

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Posted by philo426 on Thursday, March 2, 2023 8:12 PM

Ok hope you can get the issue ironed out!

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Posted by stuartmit on Friday, March 3, 2023 12:18 PM

Wonder if adding a spring from pilot or trailing truck of steam loco surrounding the tab than suspends the truck from the chassis woukd help.  On steam locos, the spring keeps the lead and trailing truck, which have no real weight on them, down on the rail head. Maybe that would work here as well if short enough. 
Any thoughts? 

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Posted by philo426 on Friday, March 3, 2023 2:43 PM

Seems logical , definitely worth a try!

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Posted by stuartmit on Friday, March 3, 2023 8:58 PM

a trip to hobby shop found no spring 773-69 which is used in 1950 Hudson, but the owner was familiar with the problem of the pilot easily bounced around, and even pointed out another common source of trouble. The flangeways in 022 switches are shallower in the vicinity of the frog, and he has ground the bakelite down to create greater depth for the wheels. But he has had success reducing the bouncing of the un weighter truck by coiling solder around the axle. So maybe I'll try that.Or i will take by GG1 over their for some coaching.

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Posted by stuartmit on Saturday, March 4, 2023 3:47 PM

I Investigated the use of the solder around axles to add weight to combat flopping around or bouncing, but it was not as simple as they pointed out at the Hobby shop, and I didn't undertake that effort.

I tried to borrow the spring out of my 773's trailing truck, but removal involved more than I thought that I could handle; I believe there are some ppermanently riveted elements to it, and I don't have the tools to restore that, so I may look for some springs on the market to install around the hooks that the pilot and trailing trucks for the GG one are suspended from.

also, going back to my original observation of a belly in the chassis, I will try to use a few washers around the screws holding chassis to frame  to push the ends back toward rail head to force trucks back down toward railhead. 

 

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Posted by stuartmit on Monday, March 6, 2023 7:58 AM

If I look carefully at the design of the system to guide the pilot truck, the hook/tab which engages the chassis is approximately 1/4" high and the truck can bounce upwards to that amount. That allows plenty of vertical travel with nothing to impede it, or damp the motion down somewhat. also a rise in the Bakelite floor of the flangeway pushes the truck up, and any vertiCal discontinuity at junctions of track sections can create an impact whose force drives the truck up vertically, and can create a derail, and additionally a curve track on a grade with any slight deformation can allow the unrestrained truck to climb the outer rail.  All these situations could be solved with some sort of spring perhaps placed toward the front of truck. but how do I keep it position?

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Posted by stuartmit on Monday, March 6, 2023 3:35 PM

Just received replacement truck and not exactly what I expected. First and very noticeable is a thin spring loop mounted on top of truck, projec under the hook/tab so that it will fit below the chassis and then reduce the vertical travel of the pilot truck.  But I can't test it until later.  Also very noticeable is the fact that on both my 2360 GG1 and 2340, the couplers were electromatic coil powered which are activated by use of the sliding shield, but this piece has magnetic coupler. if the replacement unit works, my local will certainly be a mix-and-match job. But maybe it will run!

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Posted by philo426 on Monday, March 6, 2023 3:43 PM

Let us hope so!

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Posted by stuartmit on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 6:10 AM

I should apologize for "blogging" my problem solving attempts, but keep hoping for a crowd solution.

i put the new truck on but didn't completely cure my problem. I have mentioned similar trouble with other locos with unweighted pilot trucks--my 671 turbine and my Hudson. On the other hand, I don't have have trouble with locos which are lighter but where the trucks support the unit's weight, even single motor units like 2023 alco. 

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Posted by stuartmit on Wednesday, March 15, 2023 5:13 AM

No new progress here. I will return the truck I bought to the vendor who has been co-operative on that score. I located another pilot truck which is original Lionel of the correct design with coil coupler. But the guy who has it told me in his experience my GG1 likely will continue to experience the problem. He was familiar with the flopping of the unweighted pilot trucks. He suggested I locate some flat lead material and epoxy it on top of truck to add weight. But after quickly checking Home Depot website, I have no idea where to procure it. I will call my local hobby shop when it opens. Accepting all suggestions. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, March 15, 2023 8:59 AM

stuartmit
He suggested I locate some flat lead material and epoxy it on top of truck to add weight. But after quickly checking Home Depot website, I have no idea where to procure it.

Try an auto parts supply store.  I watched a video where a toy train fan used some stick-on tire balancing weights to add some weight to a Lionel engine for better traction.  Stick-on weights are also available from Amazon, WalMart, and Harbor Freight.

For just plain lead you can try a gunshop that sells supplies for muzzle-loading firearms, however that may be more lead than you need.  Plumbing supply outfits may have sheet lead still available.

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Posted by stuartmit on Wednesday, March 15, 2023 12:40 PM

I got the tire weights.  They are very small with adhesive backing. i put on two at a quarter ounce each.  Maybe will put on two more if height allows.  Seems promising.

thanks for a good suggestion

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, March 15, 2023 12:49 PM

You're welcome!  Hope it works!

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