Hey All,
I have an American Flyer 21085 engine that has an odd coupler from the tender to the engine. It keeps shorting out on me and I wonder if it's original to the engine or if someone else made the coupler. Here are a few pictures.....
The object that you are referring to is technically known as a "drawbar". And it appears to be original to the locomotive according to my sources. This model locomotive had a cast trailing truck, and a reverse unit mounted in the locomotive cab instead of inside the tender body. The drawbar does not supply any electrical current, that goes through the two wires that come off of the back of the locomotive. So if your engine is "shorting out" it's probably not the drawbar that's responsible. I would check over the wiring very carefully. Especially the wiring inside the tender and where the jack from the locomotive plugs into the tender.
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
A few pictures shown here look like the drawbar is original. Scroll down about halfway to see 4 pictures of the 21085.
How does the drawbar short out?
Larry
I've been checking the tender, and I have continuity between the front truck and the drawbar. Since the frame of the truck is all one piece, I cannot see any way it will not short through the drawbar, since there are no insulators between the front tender truck and the drawbar like my other flyer engines have.
I also hooked up the engine directly to the transformer and it worked fine.
Hooked it up through the tender without the drawbar attached and it worked fine.
Hooked it up through the tender with the drawbar attached and it shorts out.
Mononflyer I've been checking the tender, and I have continuity between the front truck and the drawbar. Since the frame of the truck is all one piece, I cannot see any way it will not short through the drawbar, since there are no insulators between the front tender truck and the drawbar like my other flyer engines have.
My guess is that you just answered your own question. Somewhere along the line the insulator on the front truck wore out and was torn off or fell off. All my tenders of this description also have two insulators, one for each truck. I am assuming that if you take off the tender shell that you have one lead connected to the front truck and one lead to the rear. If that is the case then there is no need for an electrical circuit through the drawbar. Install an insulator on the front truck and your problem should be solved.
(note: Truck Insulation has two parts, a fiber washer between the truck and the bottom frame, and a rubber like grommet between the rivet and the frame. So if you look at it from the top, is the grommet still there? If so, that an indication that there once was a washer as well. You can get repair parts quite easily online or on eBay.)
Try hooking up the tender drawbar to the loco without the electrical plug installed. If it does not short, but when the electrical plug is installed it does, then there is the possibility the plug is wired backwards. Did the loco ever work properly, and have any electrical repairs been done to it lately?
I checked the insulators for the trucks and they seem to be ok. The washers and grommets are both there. There is no continuity between the trucks and the tender frame. Is there supposed to be an insulator on the tall rivet attached to the front truck where the drawbar attaches? As it sits now, there is no way to insulate the drawbar from the front truck frame. The track current just runs through the truck frame and through the drawbar.
The loco never did work very well. I got it at a flea market with freight cars and rusty track.
I see, it's the copper pickup to the wheels that is energizing the tongue. That means there must be an insulator somewhere else that's missing. Inspecting both my 283 and my 302 I see that there is an insulator bushing where the drawbar attaches to the front coupler on the tender. Though how it would work on your engine I am not sure, as both of mine are riveted together. The only other way that I could guess it would work is that there is supposed to be an insulator fitting around the screw that connects the drawbar to the engine frame. I note that that item is missing in your photographs. Perhaps someone once replaced the proper fitting with an ordinary screw.
That's what I was thinking. The problem is that if the drawbar is energized, then it would short out because it touches both the trailing truck and the chassis. I tried a nylon screw and the drawbar shorted out against the chassis.
Maybe I can help a bit tomorrow but here is a pic of my 21085. Notice they look somewhat different as to the copper contact.
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Forgot to mention, there are no insulators for the drawbar. And yes, mine runs fine.
When you say shorting out do you mean it's throwing the breaker? Or is it just not running and sparking?
One thing I noticed in your picture is the wheels are extremely dirty. Something to check is are both pickup wheels on the trucks on the same side. I have come across engines where this has happened. Someone serviced the tender and reversed one or both of the wheels. Check under the hood to see if someone has been at the wires soldered onto the trucks.. if these have been reversed that can cause trouble, also make sure that a blob of solder didn't get in the wrong place.
Lover of all things Gilbert, truly a man ahead of his time.
It definitely shorts out and resets the transformer. All the wheels, trucks, and solder points are fine. The problem I see is that the truck and tongue for the drawbar is all one piece, so since the axles are steel and the truck sides are sintered iron, there is no way to insulate the track current from the drawbar.
Does anyone have an exploded view of this engine? I have one from the A.F. Service Manual, but it has the typical insulated drawbat, not the type of drawbar that this one has.
One side of the wheels on the axle is plastic this effectively insulates the track power from the sintered iron sides, axle and truck overall. Going back to what was previously discussed there must be some breakdown of insulation between the truck and tender body.
Looking at Ray's picture the drawbar is not insulated from the power on that truck. The most logical conclusion at this point without seeing yours in front of me is that the wires on the trucks inside the tender shell might have gotten reversed.. or is there a chance that you are putting the two prong plug in the wrong way? can you flip it over from the way you have previously installed it?
From the pictures posted, it looks like the plug will only fit one way. I suggest unsoldering the plug wires inside the locomotive, reverse them, and resolder. That should effectively put the locomotive chassis at the same electrical potential as the drawbar/front tender truck, and fix the problem.
TrainLarry From the pictures posted, it looks like the plug will only fit one way. I suggest unsoldering the plug wires inside the locomotive, reverse them, and resolder. That should effectively put the locomotive chassis at the same electrical potential as the drawbar/front tender truck, and fix the problem. Larry
I'm on the same train as Larry.
Can't help you with the connection as mine is from 1961 and is wired, not plugged.
Here is a link to an exploded view as it's the same as a 283 and 287.
http://www.hobbysurplus.com/xviews/280spacHSS.asp
And additional info.
Hope this helps.
In looking at the picture of the other 21085 shown, it has pikemaster trucks, mine are not pikemaster trucks, but the sintered iron trucks, that's why mine shorts out and the other one does not. Wondering if I have the wrong tender or something.....
I have double checked all the wiring and insulation. Everything checks out ok.
I didn't realize I also have a 283.
If you look close you will notice a washer on the drawbar and the front truck assembly. It's part numbers 65, 66 & 67 on the exploded diagrams. Since yours runs fine without the drawbar connected, this is something you might need.
Mononflyer In looking at the picture of the other 21085 shown, it has pikemaster trucks, mine are not pikemaster trucks, but the sintered iron trucks, that's why mine shorts out and the other one does not. Wondering if I have the wrong tender or something..... I have double checked all the wiring and insulation. Everything checks out ok.
Follow Larry's advice.. there are many flyer locos with Sintered Iron trucks that don't short out. They are designed this way. If the trucks are install properly and the insulating washers are in place there is no problem. They only short out when there is a problem with the insulating washers or if someone got a blob of solder in the wrong place OR as suggested someone got in there and tinkered moving the wires from one truck to the other.
Here is the Atlantic version.. it's the same same here.. insulating washer, metal pickup wheels on each truck etc etc.. and by the way this has the plug and it can only go in one way unless someone altered it.
That's exactly how mine is. Do you know which truck goes to which prong for the plug?
The diagram I posted above shows which truck goes to the correct plug. Also since you have stated before that it runs without the drawbar I suspect the connections and wireing is not the problem.
See if you can add a short jumper wire to each terminal on the plug to make it easier to reverse the wiring to the locomotive, since the plug goes in only one way. See if this corrects the problem. Since you mention that the tender front truck does not have an insulating washer between the truck and drawbar, this is the cause of the problem. Either remove the truck and install the proper insulating washer, or you can insulate the drawbar from the rear truck of the locomotive by using plastic or cardboard washers, and a nylon bolt and nut to hold the drawbar in place.
The 21085's built from 1958 to 1960 had metal trucks, the ones built in 1961 and after had Pikemaster trucks. So your locomotive is probably from the first era, and the tender is correct.
One of the things you said earlier is that you replaced the metal screw with a nylon screw to attach the drawbar to the locomotive. But it didn't help with the shorting. I'm wondering if you didn't go far enough? You need to fully isolate the drawbar from the chassis, which would require some sort of additional insulator between the drawbar, the trailing truck, and the chassis body. I suggest retrying the nylon screw and including a plastic washer on top of the drawbar. That should do the trick.
I would also suggest that if you are still getting a short after doing all that, maybe the problem isn't in the tender. Perhaps you have some sort of wiring short inside the locomotive, which is grounding through the drawbar. The way these locomotives are wired you should not have continuity through the frame, it's not part of the circuit.
stebbycentral Mononflyer In looking at the picture of the other 21085 shown, it has pikemaster trucks, mine are not pikemaster trucks, but the sintered iron trucks, that's why mine shorts out and the other one does not. Wondering if I have the wrong tender or something..... I have double checked all the wiring and insulation. Everything checks out ok. One of the things you said earlier is that you replaced the metal screw with a nylon screw to attach the drawbar to the locomotive. But it didn't help with the shorting. I'm wondering if you didn't go far enough? You need to fully isolate the drawbar from the chassis, which would require some sort of additional insulator between the drawbar, the trailing truck, and the chassis body. I suggest retrying the nylon screw and including a plastic washer on top of the drawbar. That should do the trick.
These locomotives weren't manufactured this way so putting a nylon screw in the drawbar is not a solution. The OP needs to start his diagnosis like many have suggested here. Get a meter out and check continuity between pickup wheels and plug.. checking along the way to make sure there are no shorts to chassis. Visually inspect the insulation at each truck and test with a meter to ensure there is insulation. Compare the wiring in the diagram to the way the wires are affixed in his tender. Make sure the pickup wheels are in the proper position.
With a meter I just checked my tender. There is NO continuity between pickup wheels and tender base. There is continuity from front pickup wheels to drawbar. With the tender upright on a track looking at the front of tender towards the back my rear truck has the pickup wheels on the right (drivers side on a car) and they have continuity to the right hole in the plug socket. The front pickup wheels are on the left (passenger side of a car) and have continuity to the left hole of socket. If your loco runs with the drawbar unattached then your wires are reversed somewhere.. or your wheels are reversed. But you have to get the meter out and check as well as visually inspect.
Everyone seems to be concentrating on the tender. The short may lie in the locomotive. I have numerous locomotives with the draw bar energized from the lead truck on the tender and have no problems. I would check the locomotive's chassis to see if it is shorted out. Flyer's loco chassis should be electrically isolated from the motor, light and smoke unit. If it is not, that is the cause of the problem!
stebbycentral I would also suggest that if you are still getting a short after doing all that, maybe the problem isn't in the tender. Perhaps you have some sort of wiring short inside the locomotive, which is grounding through the drawbar. The way these locomotives are wired you should not have continuity through the frame, it's not part of the circuit.
Bingo!
That would be my thought as well.
Rich
Alton Junction
Thanks for all the advice. I am in the process of taking the engine apart and am checking for shorts in the engine wiring. I'll let you know what I find.
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