This is the 534 the remote directional control version of the 4-8-4 behemoth of the American Flyer line. This engine is rubber stamped with 571, but the RDC makes it a 534. The Remote Directional Control allows the reversing unit to be cycled with a special control button that sends a small DC pulse over the AC line to the track. The engine can stop and start all day long in forward until the control is activated and the reversing unit is sequenced. This is especially useful with accessories like the talking station or toolshed.
This engine is part of set no. 4023 Union Pacific Freight set that I acquired this year. Unfortunately the cast 510 stock car was missing and in it's stead was a sheetmetal 534 box car. I'm on the lookout for a nice 510 to make this set complete
There was also a 572 with RC (standard reversing unit, lever through top of boiler casting) that was catalogued and stamped 571 or 572
There were a few incarnations of the 4-8-4. The earliest one had a spur gear motor, which drove the wheels from a small gear on the motor to gear sets on the drive wheels. This wheel configuration also came as part of a "kit" to be assembled at home. This one is particularly rare and I'm sure expensive to buy now. I'm anxious to see pictures of these various styles surface here.
This image below shows the engine with Remote Directional Control unit on top. A DC pulse pulls the solenoid in and that sequences the reversing unit. (this whistle controller on a Lionel transformer will do this). There is also a small toothpick sized hole in the casting above the solenoid plate. I imagine this was so you could manually cycle the reversing unit should it become stuck.
This is the Remote Directional Controller.. it's a simple momentary contact button with a rectifier to supply the DC pulse needed to activate the RDC in the Locomotive.
Lover of all things Gilbert, truly a man ahead of his time.
This is a picture of the American Flyer Hudson 570 with standard reversing unit. This has the reverse lever through the boiler casting as found on early production postwar engines. This could be used to manually lock the reversing unit in forward, or reverse if you chose to do so. The 531 was advertised as the Hudson with remote directional control. It was priced at $20.00 in the 1940 catalog, $2.50 more than the 570
This is a picture of the Pennsylvania K-5 (pacific) 561 standard reversing unit. All of these engines have superb detail and especially the valve gear workings.
This is the 545. It uses the same casting as the 561 Pennsylvania K-5, however it is not a Pacific wheel layout nor does it use the scale type tender casting. It also has less detail in the valve gear than the K5. This engine uses the Coleman (Chicago) Flyer tender. This train has an engine that although is technically a 3/16" casting was not advertised in the catalog as such. It was sold as a lesser priced set or solo engine than the K-5
Here is Gilbert's Royal Blue. A torpedo engine, based on the Baltimore and Ohio's flagship. It is quite accurate. Gilbert continued this engine postwar in the S gauge lineup, but curiously discontinued the blue passenger cars and offered it as a freight only set.
Here is the diminutive little Atlantic. It has great detail and complicated valve gear that later disappeared as this engine evolved into the later S gauge. I have since acquired a number of these and a few of them actually have a Chugger! in the tender..
(also of note you will see that there are no journal covers on the tender trucks. This Atlantic was part of a set where none of the rolling stock had journal covers either. Not sure if these was a budget set for a department store, or I believe I read that some early sets were sold off like this after 1941)
Here is another tender that has been repainted and decaled. This one is a "Chugger". Gilbert designed a motor power unit to mount inside tenders and other rolling stock. This unit has a leather cupped piston that forced air through a small hole that would "resonate" to emulate the chugging/choo choo sound. I just restored this unit and it now works surprisingly well. It adds a whole new level of play value to these trains. This chugger would later be refined to become the first smoke in tender units seen postwar.
Link to youtube video showing chugger in action..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Qi3pCpU4U&feature=plcp
Gray Cat,
This is an excellent topic as the Flyer 3/16th O gauge era was such a short period of time and also included the transition of Chicago Flyer to Gilbert production.
I have to admit to not actually caring for the 3/16th O gauge flyer items and having only some of the accessories. Although I think the die cast freight and passenger cars are nice, I have never persued these items in my collecting interest. However, I like the Gilbert pre-war buildings.
This first item is a transitional piece from 1940 and was cataloged under the Chicago number 97 Freight Station Set. This item features the Gilbert produced crane and a green crackle painted roof with the rest of the item being from leftover Chicago era production. Some of these stations are found with the earlier Chicago era lithographed roof.
A.C. Gilbert changed the pace in model railroading before WWII, then after the war he set the pace! I have very few pre-war pieces, but do have some.
http://www.rfgco.com/americanflyertrainscatalogs/catalogs.html
Nationwidelines, thank you for contributing to the thread. The no. 98 Freight station with Crane (as listed in my 1940 catalog) is a unique piece as you noted with the Chicago building and the Gilbert crane. I have a 612 now but it is the red white building with green roof. I'm on the lookout for a more "prewar" version with brown as you show. Great pictures!
Here are pictures of the no. 597 a-Koostikin Talking Passenger and Freight station. With the Prewar brown and yellow paint scheme. Post war the "Talking Station" as it was later renamed came in the standard red and white paint scheme.
Great thread. A rot free 561 is a piece that I always wanted. Looks like all of your steamers are in great shape. Do you have the 0-8-0 switcher?
Jim, thanks for the thumbs up.. over the months to come I anticipate this thread becoming a great source of information for these (dare I say?) rare American Flyer trains.
I don't have the Prewar O gauge 0-8-0 switcher yet. Now there's an engine that doesn't turn up for sale often. I wonder if I write a letter to Santa?
At this time I can honestly say I'm fortunate in that all of my castings are solid. The only problems that have shown so far is the tender floor on my Northern had to be replaced and on my Royal Blue the motor casting is actually swollen lengthwise ever so slightly. It runs and looks fine but the drive rods had to be ground down just a little to stop them from knocking (and I do have a spare motor casting complete when needed)
Action cars. One of the things Gilbert started to do prewar was add items of play interest to the line. Here are a few of the remote controled action cars. Most of these needed a special pickup track section. A spring on the side of the action car would contact this "third rail" and when the control button was pressed it would supply power to a coil that activated the mechanism in the car.
First up is a 474 coal dump car. Prior to this car the coal dump was a little boys hand!
Next action car is the auto unloading car. This featured an armored car that would automatically roll off a ramp that would swing out when the button was pushed. There were variations, this particular car has a red frame and dual spring contacts.
Today at a local train show I found this variation, the more common with black frame. The Armored car is a treat though since it's all original with it's original turret guns, these are almost always missing.
Here is the 490 Express Whistling car. This should have a special whistle controller which has a small rectifier to convert the AC of the transformer to a DC pulse that would be sent over the AC rails to activate a DC relay. The whistle in this car was designed to work through a stepper type activator similar to a reversing unit. It was On-Off-On-Off. So to activate the whistle you would push the button down once (don't hold it down), to deactivate the whistle you hit the button again. Each button press would cause the DC pulse to pull in the DC relay and activate the stepper unit cycling the whistle either on or off. The 490 cannot be used in conjunction with a Remote Directional Control engine. The DC pulse that is used to activate the whistle would also activate the RDC! Actually it was the same control with different decal for Whistle Control or Remote Directional Control. The Whistle control on a Lionel Transformer will work also!
Although this rail contact came in the box I'm not sure of it's purpose. It looks like copper that is insulated inside and designed to slide on top of the rail powering the whistle or something when the car goes by. Looking for more information on this piece.
Another action car is the mail pickup. This is a baggage car with a special track section that has a short pickup rail and a mail bag post. When activated a solenoid causes the pickup arm to come out and grab a mail bag. On the next trip around you can pickup a different colored mailbag and eject the first one at the same time. The pickup rail is designed such that you really can't get the timing wrong. The arm retracts as soon as the pickup spring loses contact of the rail. With practice you can hit the button just right though so the guy in the mail car doesn't toss your mail halfway across the layout. Guys in those days sure had good arms!
It appears that there is some way for a person to set up a link to a specific post within a thread (I see that this has been done over on the Marx thread). I don't want to clutter up your thread with non-specific posts so I'll only mention that if you know how to do this you might want to build links to a number of posts on 3/16" flyer that are on pages 37 and 38 of Northwoods Flyer's thread on pre-war American Flyer.
Here is a 585 non-talking tool shed. The prewar version, other than being painted brown and yellow, has a steel roof instead of the postwar plastic roof. I have noticed that the non-talking tool sheds typically have a smooth painted roof in a slightly darker green than the talking versions which are found with a lighter crackle green roof. Not sure if this is true for all, but I have noted this difference on more than one of these items.
Here is a 577 Whistling Billboard featuring the Royal Typewriter advertising. My boxed version came with a doorbell style button, similar to the Chicago era 2029 Billboard that was cataloged from 1937-1938.
Here is another transition item. This is the 416 Wrecker car from 1939. This item was sold with the Chicago era freight cars in 1939 and was included only in the top of the line freight set that featured the 447 O gauge hudson in 1939. It was also available for separate sale. The car features the Gilbert crane body and boom on a chicago era frame and trucks. The crane body is unlettered, as opposed to postwar cars that have lettering on the body.
I might add that there are a few things that tell a prewar billboard for sure. Your billboard has screws at the top corners that hold the framework together. These can be removed and the cardboard "billboard" can be removed. The side frames are also screwed on from behind. Postwar it was a stamped steel billboard frame that was riveted to the whistle body and sticker applied. Cloth covered wiring was prevalent prewar.
Nationwidelines Here is a 577 Whistling Billboard featuring the Royal Typewriter advertising. My boxed version came with a doorbell style button, similar to the Chicago era 2029 Billboard that was cataloged from 1937-1938.
Another item that was made prewar and continued over postwar with differences was the 596 Water Tank. The prewar version that I have is painted a glossy tuscan color with a wooden spout.
One of the most collectible prewar American Flyer Accessories that was also made postwar is the animated track gang. The prewar version would have cloth covered wire.
Lionel had the good sense to reproduce this hard to find and expensive accessory item. Their reproduction is pretty much spot on. At this time I do not have the original but am running the reproduction for effect.
Another accessory that doesn't turn up often. The No. 2 prewar trestle bridge..
Here is the Prewar Switch Tower in brown and yellow. This one needs a set of windows, looks like some kids were throwing stones!
When collecting rare trains like these prewar Gilbert American Flyer trains sometimes you have to take a piece regardless if it's in pristine condition or not. You just don't know when you will find another. If you are lucky enough you can upgrade later to a better one. For now I'm glad to have this tower.
Here is the Ringling Bro's and Barnum and Bailey version of the prewar Whistling billboard. Another distinguishing feature of prewar is the hairpin springs on the motor brushes. Postwar used the female spade clips to hold the springs in.
Here are some different baggage and passenger cars. Some variations.
All red baggage
Red with white doors. note that red with white doors has dark lettering in the American Flyer Lines decal
Royal Blue type with white doors
These cars came in green also and gray.. there were whistles in some. I'm looking forward to some more pictures with variations and perhaps a whistle car or two.
Tinplate Passenger cars. These passenger cars came in both lighted and unlit versions.
There was a series of deluxe pullman cars that were cast. They were sold with the Pennsylvania K5, the Hudson and the 534 RDC 4-8-4 Union Pacific set or they could be purchased as kits to be painted and assembled at home. Kit no 521 for the baggage and 524 for the Pullman. From what I understand it is very hard to find one of the cast Pullmans without some form of rotting or warping due to zinc pest.
Some deluxe Pullmans.
Die Cast rolling stock. All of the cast cars were available in kit form (K designation before part no.) or assembled from the factory.
Here is a selection of the entire lineup of the diecast freight cars. (with the exception of kits and variations)
All of them in a row.
Die Cast 506 Beano Box Car
Die Cast Virginia 508
Die Cast 510 Missouri Pacific Stock/Cattle Car
Die Cast Texaco Tank car 512
Die Cast Wrecker car no 514. Frame is cast with sheet metal crane cab.
Die Cast Gondola 504 the gondola uses the same frame as the crane and cattle car if zinc pest has gotten to it you can replace it with the frame used on a postwar tank car. Some of the early ones were cast but without the four holes at the corners
Die Cast UP caboose 516 (usually found in sets with the 4-8-4 UP Northern)
Die Cast NYC version of the 516 Caboose (usually found in sets with the NYC Hudson)
Let me offer my congratulations on a great start to your thread! I have only a smattering of the prewar Gilbert production, and as you have mentioned it is scattered throughout the PreWar American Flyer thread. It will be nice to have all of it gathered in one location. Thanks for starting this thread and for being an enthusiastic host.
The 3/16" O gauge line is fascinating because it was produced for such a brief period of time and the variety of equipment produced is limited. Its also a little sad because it marked the end of Chicago Flyer production and a much more toy like feel to the trains. I collected S gauge Flyer for at least 20 years before moving into the prewar trains, so its fun to see the predecessors to the S gauge line. It makes you wonder why Gilbert didn't continue some of the items after WWII. Its hard to chose which I like more.
Your photos of your collection are excellent and you have been able to obtain some really excellent examples. I have watched your videos on Youtube and they make me want to run some Gilbert era equipment on the Blueboard Central. I'd be interested in seeing some additional photos of your layout too, it really captures the era in which the 3/16 line was produced.
Back a page you posted a photo of the 556 Royal Blue combination catalogued in 1940 and 1941. This is the example I have in my collection:
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Thanks Northwoods Flyer. Of course your thread is the inspiration for this little Gilbert slice of trains.!
Thank you for posting the pictures of your two torpedos side by side or rather nose to nose. I'm really excited to see what this thread will bring. There is so little information about these trains.
Again I find it interesting that with the 553 there is no mention of 3/16" on the catalog page. It is described as O only. The 3/16" logo was apparently reserved for the "Tru Model" trains. The 553 doesn't sport a known wheel configuration which makes it more toy like, so it looks like it might have been a lesser priced or entry level train that still has the look of the new 3/16" gauge trains.
Yours looks like a fine example. Does your Royal Blue have a chugger tender?
Sheetmetal Rolling Stock. Although the selection of rolling stock is pretty simple there are of course variations.
Box car no 478 came in red and white with sliding doors
Hopper no 486 came in yellow.
Gondola no 476 came in green
Tankers no 480 came in silver blue or yellow Shell there are some variations here. I'm told the silver blue is a little less common (unverified)
Log Car no 482 variations on frame color and design
Here is one with straight straps to hold the logs. It seems the log load would shift around with this design
This must be a later design with straps that are formed to fit the logs and hold the load tight
Girder Car no This is a car that is also a little less common.
Search light car no 488 there are some variations of frame color
Wrecker Car no 481
Cabooses. The little red caboose deserves a post of it's own. There are variations. They came lighted and non lighted.
484 caboose with black railings
484 caboose with white railings
484 with lights
Here is a strange 484 I came across. This one has a caboose base that is punched out for a chugger unit.. I'm not sure if a caboose ever came with this option or if this was a mistake. But is certainly is curious.
Gray Cat Here is the diminutive little Atlantic. It has great detail and complicated valve gear that later disappeared as this engine evolved into the later S gauge. I have since acquired a number of these and a few of them actually have a Chugger! in the tender.. (also of note you will see that there are no journal covers on the tender trucks. This Atlantic was part of a set where none of the rolling stock had journal covers either. Not sure if these was a budget set for a department store, or I believe I read that some early sets were sold off like this after 1941)
This is in fact a scale model like other Gilbert 3/16" models but of a relatively little known prototype.
The Reading railroad was an early user of Atlantic type locomotives but the great majority were of the Camelback type, since that was the easiest way of incorporating the wide Wooten firebox used by the Reading.
However, in 1915, an experimental 4-4-4 was built in the P&R shops as class C-1a which placed the cab behind the large firebox. A total of four were built but the rear bogie proved unstable at speed and the locomotives were rebuilt in 1924 with a single trailing axle, and the firebox was reduced from about 12 feet long about 10 feet 6 inches long which improved the steady running of the locomotive. They were reclassified as class P-7sa (the "s" indicating superheating).
That history does give the option to a collector whose "Atlantic" is missing the trailing axle to put a bogie in that location, and still have a prototypically correct model, if not one that had been produced by Gilbert.
M636C
I guess we all have our story on how we got into a phase of a hobby. Here's mine,
As my collection began to grow I wanted to build a set from every decade of American Flyer. In choosing a set from the 1940's I chose one from 1941, after all it is the year my wife's parents were born and how could she say "no"? I bought a 1941 catalogue and found on ebay a complete set. No. 4103 Crusader Freight Train.
That's were I got the "bug" for S scale (3/16") O gauge Flyer. So here is that set and later I will add more, even though some will have already been posted.
Catalogue from 1941
Locomotive # 565
Tender # 564C ( "C" stands for chugger but doesn't sound great)
Log car # 482
Box car # 478
Caboose # 484
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Thanks for the post Ray, great to see them sitting on the rails.
Here are some shots of my "Tayle-Chase" railroad.. It is a little pike, still a work in progress. I had the idea to make it as much like it might be seen back in wartime or immediately after WWII.
Lichen, bottle brush trees and spray flocked trees. Very period.
Track gang working on a loose rail as a Union Pacific freighter rattles by.
Loading scrap metal for the war effort
Gateman watches the entrance to the yard
Main Street, USA
Waiting for a local
Local freighter passing through
Pennsylvania Rail Road Passenger line pulling out
Pages out of the 1940 catalog. I will add more as I scan them. These catalogs are an invaluable source of information. If anyone has 1938,1939 and 1941 it would be great if you could add to this part of the thread. In the meantime I'll be looking for each one of those catalogs
After I convinced my wife it was a good idea that building a set from the year her mother was born (1941), The set I posted earlier, I sold her on the idea to build one the year her dad was born, also 1941. Am I lucky or what!
Here is "The Red Arrow Passenger Train" . Set number 4110 in the 1941 catalogue.
Here is the Locomotive #561.
The 558C Tender.
The Baggage Car # 494R.
This set came with 2 - #495RL Coach Cars.
And here is the video for it.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGP0fzDzBpc&feature=plcp
Thanks for sharing Ray. It's great to see "sets" of these trains. Of course there is nothing better than to see them coursing around a track.
Is that a little lever I see poking out below that tender? Could that be a chugger tender?
Sure is, but like all the three I have they need a bit of work to make them sound "normal".
Ray, I have a chugger unit mounted on a tender base for the K5 that I want to put under my tender. I tried it once and it seems that the flat screw on the large gear is rubbing on the inside of my tender shell. I don't see and warp at all in my tender shell. I wonder is there any relief cutout in your tender shell, or is your screw really thin and flat, possibly a different screw than used on the Atlantic?
Gray Cat - When I took it apart months ago everything ran fine it's just that the leather washer wasn't pushing enough air. I might have to drill it out and reverse it. But I know that I won't get the time to work on it until February. I guess that's part of the fun in our hobby, working on these 70 year old trains. Depending on the outcome I do find it a good thing.
Today I added a few photo's of new acquisitions. In order to try and keep some sort of semblance of order I edited earlier posts to add the photo's and descriptions.
Thanks for looking and I'm really looking foward to some more input on these rare and beautiful prewar American Flyer (Gilbert) trains.
David Barker A.C. Gilbert changed the pace in model railroading before WWII, then after the war he set the pace! I have very few pre-war pieces, but do have some. http://www.rfgco.com/americanflyertrainscatalogs/catalogs.html
Thanks for posting this David, I didn't realize until now that this is an interactive catalog link showing pages of the various catalogs. Good point of reference.
Update; just added photos of three new acquisitions two to the die cast car section (again in trying to keep this stuff grouped as best as possible). A 506 "Beano" Box car and a 510 MP Stock car. Both of these cars are the die cast cars that were introduced early in the Prewar Gilbert line. They are all quite heavy. They are also a whole lot less common than the tinplate rolling stock. Also added a 581 crane (sheet metal construction) this pretty much completes the tinplate freight and the diecast freight cars.
For those that might need it here is a scan of the Whistling Express car and Remote Directional control wiring instructions.
Boxed sets.. always a treat to find! Just picked these up today..
This is the No. 4022 N.Y. Central J-3a Hudson Passenger set with the deluxe diecast pullmans. These passenger cars are very often a victim of zinc pest so to find one that is straight and in excellent condition is a rarity indeed.
These cars are really quite heavy. Even after giving the cars a fresh lube the Hudson has a little wheel spin when first starting out. These cars are much better suited with the 4-8-4 as it's extra weight and extra axle would help pull.
This car has a variation of the pickup. Both other Pullmans have the later style phenolic that mounts in slots on the truck.
Recently I was lucky enough to purchase this set. With a good cleaning the Loco runs nice. This run of American Flyer 3/16'' O Gauge was for just a short amount of time and when sitting side by side with the pre-Gilbert era you can really see the difference "scaled" cars and those that aren't.
Back on the previous page Northwoods posted his pics of Locomotive #553. Well here is Set No.4004 "Streamliner Freight Train" cataloged in 1940.
Locomotive #553
It's Tender
Log car #482
Tanker #480
Caboose #484
And here it is doing what it does best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUIFvSwHMSI
Great find Ray, thanks for sharing. I just noticed the other day when looking at pictures of another 553.. I see there is a hole in the motor casting between the two drive wheels. I wonder if they used the same casting on the Pacific engines but just moved the front hole to make it a two drive wheel loco (Atlantic Style)? Can you confirm a front hole in the casting that would match up to a Pacific wheel arrangement like the Royal Blue?
I don't believe they used the same casting. I also have a 561 Locomotive and they appear to be different. Here are a few pics of the 553, what do you think. Hope they help.
After looking again and measuring the pre-drilled small holes, if you notice on my top picture there is a hole closer to the front wheel. I measured 1 1/2" towards the front and towards the back from that hole. Same distance on the 561.
So....... Maybe they did start with the same casting, the bottoms are both 3 15/16" long also.
The 553 on top with the 561 on the bottom. It will look somewhat distorted since the 561 is a bit closer.
I just checked the motor casting on my 545 and it seems it too has the extra two hole in the positions for a Pacific type wheel configuration. I would guess that it's safe to say Gilbert used the same castings to save money and offered the 545 and the 553 as budget versions of the Pennsylvania K5 561 and and Royal Blue 556.. one less axle and set of wheels, I guess in Prewar America a set of wheels and an axle could shave a few dollars or cents off a train set?
I agree. According to the 1940 catalog the 553 was valued at $6.75 and the identical 556 (with the extra axle) was $11.00.
Ray that's a huge savings! For a boy that wanted a scale model toy train the 553 is clearly the better value. I wonder what sales/production numbers would show if we could compare the 553 and 556 side by side. He or his dad could have gotten him the 553 and a few cars for the price of the 556.
It also seems upon closer inspection there are a few other cost saving differences. The 553 has stamped steel front that is attached to the motor frame with a single screw and stamped steel trailing trucks (early style?) where the 556 has diecast front truck and pilot assembly and elaborate diecast trailing truck frame.
Gray Cat Cabooses. The little red caboose deserves a post of it's own. There are variations. They came lighted and non lighted. 484 caboose with black railings 484 caboose with white railings 484 with lights Here is a strange 484 I came across. This one has a caboose base that is punched out for a chugger unit.. I'm not sure if a caboose ever came with this option or if this was a mistake. But is certainly is curious.
Have you, or anyone else reading this, ever come across a #484 with S gauge trucks? I just picked on up off of eBay and discovered that it has the S gauge version of the link and pin trucks. It has white railings. I compared it to my other #484 caboose and the trucks are fastened in the same way and appear to be factory installed.
I can post some photos later. Any ideas?
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
I can only guess that perhaps there was some old prewar stock being used up at the beginning of the postwar Gilbert era and someone at the factory riveted those trucks on!. Gilbert did continue to sell prewar locomotives and rolling stock while it lasted after the war. Waste not want not. If I'm not mistaken the postwar rolling stock had no journals. I have a set like that. No journals on the cars or tender. NWF, does your tender have journals on the S gauge trucks?
Please do post pictures of it!
BTW I'm curious are the links plastic or metal? The earliest AF S links were plastic without weights if I'm not mistaken.. a design that was quickly revised since they had a tendency to uncouple frequently. I'll research a little to confirm this.. but if your S gauge trucks have metal links as prewar, but in the S gauge sizes that would indeed be curious.
I picked up a post war 3/16ths on O gauge Atlantic set a few years back. The Atlantic had the fahnstock clip on the front of the tender. All cars had journal boxes but the box car was made with ends punched out to hold the brake wheel on both ends! As you said they were using up leftover parts
Maybe they used a tender base for this caboose.
bkane Gray Cat, Maybe they used a tender base for this caboose.
If you are referring to my caboose that's punched out for a chugger being a tender base. I don't believe it's the same size in length. But even if it is, I find it curious that it made it through the assembly line and got painted assembled the way it is. This is original not a repaint.
Grey Cat,
It doesn't seem like they wasted anything when they were putting cars together.That caboose is a great convesation piece. I'm sure all kinds of intersting pieces made it out of the factory.
Measured my Royal Blue tender and compared it to caboose base measurements and they are the same.
bkane Grey Cat, Measured my Royal Blue tender and compared it to caboose base measurements and they are the same.
Ok great! Thanks for doing that. Well we know where it came from then! Hey maybe I can take it apart and use it to make my RB a chugger.. JK of course.
LOL!! Its always cool to have a neat factory variation in your collection.
As promised earlier, here are some photos of my 484 caboose variations.
Thanks for sharing the wonderful pictures.. Wow that S gauge trucked prewar caboose is sure a curiosity. I wonder now if any other cars were done this way? If this was a mistake? So many questions unanswered.
Hi to all,
If you need parts for your 3/16th AF check out Portlines Hobbies and Leventon Hobby Supply, they both have a large selection of prewar parts, also if you need parts for the tootsietoy armoured car especially the guns that are always missing check out Thomas Toys Inc. They specialze in prewar / post war diecast vehicle parts.
I have an AF 806 northern with the spur gear drive, it is the grandady of all northerns. It has the same remote directional control as the 534 worm drive versions.
Yes indeed that is the grandaddy.. and quite a valuable piece if I'm not mistaken. Please post a few photo's if you can. I'm sure everyone would love to see that rarity.
Interesting S-Gauge truck! However it looks to me like a previous owner carefully re-bent the original O-gauge trucks and put on S-scale wheel sets. That would explain the added height to the trucks.
Major Interesting S-Gauge truck! However it looks to me like a previous owner carefully re-bent the original O-gauge trucks and put on S-scale wheel sets. That would explain the added height to the trucks.
Looks like you "might" have solved the mystery of the S gauge prewar caboose.. we need verification from NWF now to let us know if after careful and close examination there is any evidence of the bend.
Major and Gray Cat,
Nice observation. I had not thought of that explanation. I went back and dug out the caboose and examined the trucks more carefully.
I think that the truck has indeed been re-bent from its original O gauge configuration to an S gauge one.
I have one of the earliest plastic sets in my S gauge collection. This is when Gilbert was first experimenting with plastics.. The caboose is all plastic and it is most certainly warped. I don't think I've seen any of these very early S pieces that weren't warped. I would be curious to know how quickly these pieces of rolling stock deformed.. perhaps one season in the attic would be enough to do it. Now this might be a stretch but....
I could see where an enterprising operator of a seasonal express could put his old and no longer used O gauge caboose back in service on the S gauge line.
Of course there are a million speculations.
Another addition to the family.. For some time I've been searching for a Tuscan baggage car to go with my passenger cars. It just seems to me that anything Tuscan is harder to find.. that could be because the nice ones are already spoken for. In any case I've had a devil of a time finding a Tuscan Baggage car until I saw this little fellow for sale. Consider my good fortune in not only finding a Tuscan Baggage car, but one with mail pickup, special track section and it's original mail bag. Based on what I have witnessed so far the Tuscan mail car is a hard find. If anyone has any input on this please chime in. Regardless, I am glad to have this one!
Gray Cat - Nice catch on the Tuscan mail pick-up! I have only the Green #492. After a closer look at my 492 there are 4 spots where they placed the decals on and none of the have the number, just "American Flyer Lines". I see no mention in my Greenberg book about this. It all looks original on the car.
I'm trying to acquire the 400 series freight cars and I'm more than half way complete. The 500 series will be next. As these were only made barely for three years it's not an easy task. Patience........
Ray, collecting these trains is an exercise in patience for sure. But well worth the wait when we find a coveted piece. As to the decals it's like so many other things we see. Perhaps on the day they finished your car they ran out of number decals or the person putting them in place didn't know any better? We just don't know. But it is neat to see the variations.
You have been doing a great job of documenting Gilbert's 3/16" O gauge line. So good in fact that you have tempted me to start adding a few pieces to my collection. Like AF53 I have been adding one piece at a time. I've been trying to put together a passenger train of the 400 series cars; but mine are in green. Those Tuscan cars are indeed a difficult set to find. Here is what I have so far.
That's all I need, more competition, UGH!!!!!!
All kidding aside Northwoods, good luck.
AF53 That's all I need, more competition, UGH!!!!!! All kidding aside Northwoods, good luck.
HaHa that's what I was thinking too! (of course I'm kidding too! There's still plenty of this stuff around)
Northwoods, as I am finding out it is no easy task to collect these trains or is it easy to keep a thread on them going and interesting. They were manufactured for such a short time. Fortunately with continued support here on the forum we are keeping it going. As we have noted the side effect of keeping up or renewing interest is that they become "interesting"..
Here are a few more shots of my Tuscan Mail car. It does indeed have a number and American Flyer Lines on each side. Luckily the number/letter size and font match my other passenger cars and the condition is very close. This essentially "looks" like a set now.
Another recent find is an upgrade to my Royal Blue passenger set. I was able to find this beautiful Royal Blue "Chugger" with box. These chugger tenders add a whole new level of play value to the toy trains. Imagine being a boy running his locomotive down the rails and being able to hear it chugging along. The "Chugger" unit that came with was not working, luckily I had one all serviced and ready to install to replace the bad one. I'd be curious to learn if this chugger tender was offered in sets or for separate sale only? I'll have to see if I can read up on it.
Gray Cat - This indeed could be a variation to the Mail Car. All the decals look original with slight wear.
Yes, sure looks like it is.. my decals are AFL on the left and 492 on the right. Be curious to see if any came the other way around?
Northwoods Flyer Gilbert did a great job with American Flyer when he took over and redesigned the trains. Somehow I still prefer the older prewar designs. However I have just about everything they made in S-gauge after the war. Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
One of the (many) appealing things about the prewar 3/16" line to me is that it still has that tinplate feel with it's bright colors and sheetmetal rolling stock of the Chicago Flyer O. Yet there is that certain realism in the truer to scale sizes and the detail of the motive power is over the top. These are still toy trains. The S Gauge line gets closer to realism in many ways and farther away from toy trains, but not close enough to scale model railroading and too far away from toy trains for some. S Gauge will always be my first love.
In the 1941 catalog you can buy the "Chugger" tenders separately to upgrade your equipment. The chugger tenders also came with higher priced locomotives and in higher priced sets that same year.
Thanks for the input Major. I would imagine that a "Royal Blue" could be considered a premium set.
Gray Cat and AF53,
You have no one to blame but yourselves if the competition for 3/16" O is getting stiffer. You have taken a relatively obscure niche of the American Flyer collecting world (actually a well kept secret) and shown just how great it looks when you put it all together and run it. Whenever I have put on a display of American Flyer trains most people are surprised to find out that Flyer made anything but S gauge. Then when you show them that there was the brief window of 3/16" O they are really surprised.
Thanks againg for your dilligence in posting to this thread. It only takes the patience and persistance of one or two people to keep it alive and before you know it there will be more contributors. That's what I have discovered on the Pre War thread.
Nice additions to your collections. I particularly like the Royal Blue chugger tender. I'll have to keep my eyes open for one of those, and then another engine to pull it and then................ Now see what you did!
The Mersenne6 Special
NWF, I for one am glad to be a part of keeping this little slice of A.C. Gilbert's legacy alive. Also glad to see others like AF53 joining in, I enjoy the competition. The other side of keeping interest alive is that someday my heirs might benefit from the recognition as opposed to having a bunch of old trains no one knows anything about.
The whistling baggage car in Royal Blue is nice.! I have a grey one and boy is it heavy. How neat would that be to have the mail car and whistler on the same consist, I just wonder if the RB loco could pull it?
Now the problem is I need more rail laid to handle all these trains! and more wall space and more storage space and AAAHHHH see what we've started..
Grey Cat, I remember when I started collecting AF 3/16th about 18 years ago they were still not easy to come by, but they weren't really in demand so you could get them a little less than you can now. The 1st time I saw them they became my favorite. I think that the engines are some of the nicest ever made and the bright colors of the tinplate stock always looked great goin around the track! Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if A.C. Gilbert kept them on 3rail after the war?? I shutter to think of the possibilities!!
Every once in a while I cruise the S gauge Flyer section on "that" auction site. I'm still an active S gauge collector so that's not too hard to do. I find that many times folks will post what they think are S gauge American Flyer parts, rolling stock or accessories when they are actually prewar 3/16" gauge O. I just landed this little guy hidden in among some S gauge accessories and parts. Funny thing is someone else has a good eye too! I was the high bidder, but not the only bidder. The Directional controller in the picture is a hard to find piece. This is what is needed to operate (change direction) on a Remote Directional Control locomotive. It's a simple DC converter and momentary contact button. It sends the DC pulse needed to activate the RDC.
pgXMgdY7CQwHere's a Royal Blue with Chugger tender in action. Hope you enjoy!
[tup] Totally Awesome!
With just a sliver in time from American Flyer's history, 3/16" O Gauge is very unique. Still in the hunt to expand my collection from that era.
The good news is that the stuff is out there. Even with the interest stirred up here on the Forum I think overall the amount of interest in Prewar Gilbert era 3/16th O is very low. Most collectors walk on by it not paying any attention to it or seeming to care. I just got back from the Hamburg Pa. train show and there was a good showing of Gilbert O. I saw a mixed set with a little Chicago Style engine and two 3/16" cars a 494 and a 495 in red. Silver outlines on the windows. No lights.. $75. There were several different sellers offering rolling stock. All common stuff but reasonable prices and good shape. I saw two complete freight sets at different tables one headed by a nice 561 K4 and the other headed up by a 545 (same locomotive but with 4 drive wheels as opposed to 6 and a prewar Chicago style tender).. Lot of stuff just all common. It's the hard to find things that don't show up. But if you are looking to start a collection there is plenty out there.
Concerning the 494 and 495 prewar coaches. I saw something interesting today in an Ebay description. This can be a good source of information since there are at times sellers with knowledge on the auction site. The seller in this case is offering a set of these coaches in boxes.. stating that they are from an original set 1941 only production. He further states in his description that in 1941 only the American Flyer Lines decal was in black lettering and the coach number was in silver lettering. As depicted in his auction. At times we have seen these cars come through with different layouts. Some all silver, some all black, some half and half and in a few cases two American Flyer Lines decals and no number. Perhaps there is more to this than just a coincidence or a mistake? For now I buy into the 1941 only theory with black AFL and Silver 495/494.. this seems to make sense and is verified by a 1941 set. Anyone with further information concerning this please feel free to add to this.
Gray Cat AF 53 and mersenne6
I am not a puter whiz and this is the first time I have tried to correspond with anyone on line. I am a toy train collector. However, American Flyer is my main area of intrest. I had a TCA charter member as a mentor. In my collection I have all years and gauges and manufacturers, as well as A.F. equipment. I try to acquire A.F. sets and accessories from each era, from Chicago Flyer, through Gilbert, and a few repo sets from each company since Gilbert. Don't have MTH yet.
As I was looking through many A.F. videos etc. I found this site dealing with A.F. 3/16 "O" Gauge equipment. This is one of my most interesting areas of A.F. I have 236 sets of A.F,(all gauges) plus over 100 6 place inventory sheets of extra cars, engines, and accessories. I have every engine style, of 3/16 O, with a few duplicates. I was fortunate to acquire the # 574 0-8-0, to complete the engines. I have every style of freight car both tin and cast. I have green, blue, gray, and red tin passenger cars, however I do not have is a set of the cast passenger cars. I do not have the track gang nor the yellow and brown bulidings. I really like the 3/16 O trains. That's why I was so glad to find this site.
I have a # 490 whistle control button for the gray and blue whistling baggage cars. I have never been able to acquire the wiring diagrams and instruction sheets for this equipment, until I found this site. I was elated. In fact all the information is very important and I am so glad someone has taken the time to get it published.
The other thing I have been looking for is a totally working choo-choo tender. I have two tenders which need repair but I have never seen nor heard one operate. I have one that runs great but the discs in the cylinder are loose and I haven't figured out how to repair it. Hearing the royal blue tender run on the vedio was absolutely great. That's my next project.
On the site there was mention of operating action cars. A friend of mine came to me and asked if I would clean and service his Dads old trains because he wanted to set up a layout for his grandkids. When he brought them to me I couldn"t believe it, It was two sets of American Flyer 3/16 O gauge. After I serviced them and returned them my friend took them home and constructed a very nice 8X10 layout. He then invited me to come see it and answer a few questons for him reguarding the equipment. He had an "S" gauge #751 log loader dumping logs in his 0 gauge gondola. I decided he needed an 0 gauge log dump car. At a train show I purchased a #717 "S" log dump car. I changed the trucks to the regular 0 gauge trucks, of course insulated one truck, rewired a straight piece of 0 gauge track in front of the loader, and came up with an 0 gauge automatic log dump car. Works perfectly. I drew the wiring schematic an an exploded parts diagram and sent it to TCA to see if they would put it in the collector magazine but I haven't heard form them.
Thanks for your tremendous information I will be checking it offen, and reading comments from other enthusiastic 3/16 0 collectors - runners.
Howard Runft , 1827 W Dallas St. Wichita Kansas 67217-2247
Ph: 316-265-3414
e-mail: crunft_22@yahoo.com Don't forget the underscore between t and 22.
First and foremost Howard (Ashcat), let me offer you a hearty "welcome aboard".. it's great to hear of your collection and have another fellow Gilbert O Gauger here on the forum. I'm hoping that in the near future we can help you to get some photo's of your collection here in this thread. It will be great to see if we can come up with variations. Your input will be welcomed!
You touch on a few subjects we can delve into for sure. The Chugger Tenders are a nice point of interest and they certainly add to a consist. I have serviced three of them to date with excellent results. As long as the casting is not warped, crazed or cracked you can make them work again and sound good.
With just a sliver of time (AF 53) these trains were manufactured finding something as simple as a control button can be a challenge. The tin rolling stock is pretty common, but good cast cars, and accessories or special catalogue items are harder. Very nice to hear you have the elusive 0-8-0. I just missed one on Ebay, the seller ended the auction early. Which is a shame for them as I was ready to do what ever it would take to get it. Chasing down hard to find items well, that is part of the fun of collecting these trains!
I like what you did with the S gauge log loader. I've toyed with the idea of something like this a few times. It's all in the family for sure, I'm just not sure I'm ready to mix parts like that.. but boy would it add a whole new level of fun to the O gauge era. Gilbert made some great S gauge accessories.
Thanks Gray Cat, Keep up the good work.
Ashcat
Ray I just noticed that my Whistle Car has the same decal arrangement as yours.
Thanks for the pic! I guess the only thing consistent is that nothing is consistent!
In his Catalogs A.C. Gilbert offered a selection of his new 3/16" scale toy trains in "Kit" form. You could buy a kit which was supplied with all parts needed and paint to assemble various pieces of rolling stock or locomotion. Finding any of these kit pieces, like many of the Prewar Gilbert can be a challenge. Finding one with a nice paint job is even better. I believe you could have the kit assembled and painted if you wanted, but I'm not certain of this. The one thing that marks a Kit vs a Factory assembled train is the screws. All kits were assembled using screws. Trucks were not riveted on as were the factory assembled units.
Here is the first of my Kit acquisitions purchased today. This is the 514K (K of course designates kit). Note that on this particular kit the smoke stack is raw copper and the frame of the cab is unfinished steel. The green supplied in the kit is often of a different shade than factory paint. The cab usually has no markings. It's in great condition, this little crane was well cared for.
Note the screws holding trucks and crane cab on to diecast open frame.
I added a few more kits or "K" cars to my collection today. The crane shown above is really quite a nice piece. It was so well done it almost looks factory painted. These next two kit cars are hand brush painted and not quite as nice. This is also one of the sure signs of a kit.. brush painted with screw on trucks.
I found this nice Talking Tool Shed "A-Koosti-kin". Gilbert must have thought this was a catchy name, however it didn't seem to go over well with the public. As Nationwidelines shows us earlier the non talking version has a smooth green roof and this talking shed does indeed have a crackle green roof. You can see in one of the pictures it looks a little better after I carefully cleaned it with Novus 2 plastic polish. It can be scary to try and clean some of these older trains and accessories. A little wipe in the wrong place and I could have erased "Tool Shed".. This shed comes with instructions and the special track clip. It fits nicely on original AF track.
Cleaned up a bit.
Another recent acquisition is this 553 Bullet Nose engine and tender. It's a bit of a variation. Northwoods Flyer's shows American Flyer Lines on the Engine, AF 53's does not. The one I'm showing is without it also and a bonus is that it's tender lettering is entirely different from both. It has a different Font and it's silver. Also this engine has the original instruction tag for worm drive motors that were new to the toy train buying public and in my opinion superior to the old Chicago Flyer motors. The worm drive is much smoother at slow speeds. A little motor trivia is that this little universal (AC/DC) worm drive motor was designed by Gilbert to be used in aircraft (fighters and bombers) as little control motors for linkages and such. Typical of this engine the trailing truck wheels are cracking and the front truck is missing. Parts that are readily available.
I have just purchased a #484 3/16 caboose that has a similar base punch out for the chugger motor. It does not have any pick-ups. Guess Gilbert used whatever base he had at hand…? Any clues?
Tremendous thread!.
HOOScaler I have just purchased a #484 3/16 caboose that has a similar base punch out for the chugger motor. It does not have any pick-ups. Guess Gilbert used whatever base he had at hand…? Any clues?
If you look farther up in the thread you will see pictures of a caboose I own that has the same punchouts for a chugger. Looks pretty obvious that a chugger won't fit though. I bet you and I had the same guy on the line grabbing the wrong parts! ha ha..
David Barker Tremendous thread!.
Thanks David, sadly there just isn't as much interest in this little slice of American Flyer history to make this a long popular thread like some of the others.. But there is some good information in here none the less.
Gilbert's O 3/16 was an excellent idea to get into scale. Gray Cat's information is absolutely awesome!
I thought that it was time to bump this thread back to the top so that Shiffy48 could find it more easily. This thread has great information and photos.
The Royal Blue IS inherently premium. In this case, PREMIUM is unrelated to list price. As you all well know, those that are in gorgeous condition (which includes lack of rot on the engine shell) are very difficult to obtain. That the list price was relatively low as compared to the RDC / chugging tender / diecast / Hudson / Northern freight & passenger sets is (to me at least) irrelevant to appreciating all of its attributes.
I prefer the earliest version of the 556 in which there are 4 milled out cab windows on each side. More severe rot & front impact damage seem to have occurred with them.
And, only a small % of the 495s were illuminated.
I acknowledge that the color of this font is NOT a precise match for the set...
Shiffy48
An overdue and enjoyable topic and the appeal of that era and what might have been if the switch to S gauge had not taken over is food for thought....They have a distinct look to them and to my eyes, seem more appealing than the omnipresent Lionel trains of the same era, and it might be because they are different..
They somehow look more proportional to me than the Lionel examples that have been done to death, covered in amazing detail..not that I particularly dislike that brand, but they do seem as common as rabbits..and there is an appeal to rarity as a type compared to whats common. I have had an unfulfilled addiction to Voltamp Interurbans as an example of a very appealing but very rare example of a type.
Every so often I see this or that up for sale and think..I should add one of those and think it's like the potato chip thing..I couldn't have just one. And we all know where that leads.
Great thread.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
FYI 3/16 Gilbert O gauge Northerns I am aware of.
1939 spur gear, RDC, 806 number board (painted)
1940 Kit engine spur gear, 806 number board (decals)
1940 571, reverse lever, worm drive
1940 571 ,RDC, worm drive
1940 Kit worm, drive reverse lever, 806 decals
1941 572 worm drive, reverse lever
1941 533, worm drive, RDC
1941 534, worm drive, RDC
Note about the K-5s
you see a 561 most often with reverse lever, there is a more rare 559 with RDC which was included with the die cast passenger and freight sets.
Same for the Hudson, there is a RDC version used in the die cast sets.
at some time in the future I will unbox these and post photos including the rare 0-8-0 574. I have never seen a 575, but I hear they do exist.
there is another variation to this station, it is red/white with brown ramps, red base
Nationwidelines Gray Cat, This is an excellent topic as the Flyer 3/16th O gauge era was such a short period of time and also included the transition of Chicago Flyer to Gilbert production. I have to admit to not actually caring for the 3/16th O gauge flyer items and having only some of the accessories. Although I think the die cast freight and passenger cars are nice, I have never persued these items in my collecting interest. However, I like the Gilbert pre-war buildings. This first item is a transitional piece from 1940 and was cataloged under the Chicago number 97 Freight Station Set. This item features the Gilbert produced crane and a green crackle painted roof with the rest of the item being from leftover Chicago era production. Some of these stations are found with the earlier Chicago era lithographed roof. I believe that the next item dates to 1941 and represents the first year production of the 612 freight station. Note that the item has the red painted base similar to the 1940 97 freigth station set pictured above. The building also has the brown trim instead of red trim, which is common on the pre-war tool shed and mystic stations (which were brown and yellow painted). There is also a black crackle painted roof and red mystic station letterboards.
Its nice to see this thread having posts to it again. I just re-read it and it has lots of great information. I posted this information over on the Prewar photo thread some time ago and discovered that I hadn't posted it here. I thought it would be good to keep the 3/16 information together.
NWF
553 Streamlined Engine Revisited
The 553 engine and tender combination is part of the Gilbert 3/16" O gauge line. It was only cataloged in 1940. The engine is given the number 551 and the tender is given the number 552. The two pieces together are given the number 553. You have to love Flyer's numbering system.
Recently I picked up a second 553 and I noticed some differences. While I am not sure that these differences qualify as a variation (Schuweiler doesn't identify them that way) they are worth noting.
Here are my two examples.
It is impossible to tell from my photos but there is a subtle difference in the grey paint used on each engine. The top example is just a shade lighter in color. The tenders match their engines exactly. So there must have been at least two paint batches when these were being produced.
The first noticeable difference is that the bottom engine has a decal that says "American Flyer Lines". The top engine does not have the decal and there is no evidence that it ever had one.
Both engines have a 553 decal.
The next obvious difference is the lettering on the tenders. The top tender has "American Flyer Lines" stamped in silver in the indented part of the body. The bottom tender has a decal with white lettering that matches the decal above the running board of the engine. (Schuweiler does make note of this difference in the tenders in his book.)
Another difference is that there are two different trailing trucks used. I know that these trucks are easily swapped out, but it does present another possible difference. I'd like to know if anyone else has examples of the two different trailing trucks.
Now when you look at the engines side by side I bet its easier to see the differences.
I think its interesting to find these kinds of differences. It gives a bit of an insight into the manufacturing process and how things changed as the supplies of materials on hand changed.
So now I can make up the two trains that were headed by this engine in its one year appearance in the catalog; a passenger set and a freight set.
By the way. If you have Schuweiler's book on Pre War O gauge; if you look at the photo that he uses on page 220 to illustrate the 553 you will notice that it is a 4-6-2 not a 4-4-2. I wonder if that is a factory original or if it is a 553 shell placed on a 556 Royal Blue chassis. We collectors of variations can be very detail oriented.
Really found your post very informative. I own the earliest version of the 4-8-4 # 571 with the gears on the drive wheels. I need a wiring diagram to get it running again due to broken loose wires. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I also have other AF "o" that need repairs. Thanks, Bill
This is a great thread with the O gauge AF 3/16. Great research and photos! Thank you for sharing
Jim
How hard are prewar Gilbert trains to find? They look great.
I had an uncle that had, it seems, at least one of each of the pre-war 3/16ths locos.
I don't know which models exactely but do remember one of each of the following:4-8-4, 4-6-2 PRR, 4-6-4 NYC, R&O Royal Blue 4-6-2 and I think a 4-4-2 and a 0-8-0. I always liked thembecause they seemed to be better proportioned than the Lionel stuff.
I was to inherit these but unfortunately they were stolen from his house while he was in the hospital. Someone knew what they were because nothing else was taken, only his train stuff.
Nice to see this thread back up and running again.
A while ago I was fortunate to come across a set from someone who was selling her granfathers train set. After doing a bit of researching I was able to find it in the 1939 catalogue as set no. 301. It came with the original boxes and someone marked on the bottom of each box Dec. 1940. The set looks and runs great execpt I need to replace the locomotives light bulb. I will try a post some pics this weekend.
Tinplatacis - This ara of American Flyer is somewhat hard to find and you definatly need patience. It can hit you like a bug if you let it, easy to get hooked on it.
Oh I believe it. I defenatly believe it. I been hooked the circle L bug for a bit, so I know how it can bite. The G-AF O looks fantastic though.
Some background information: the 1940 494/495 cars had black pans with silver window surrounds, in 1941 it went to white pans with white window surrounds.
1942 is where it gets interesting because the war had started production was winding down. equipment was made up from whatever Gilbert had on stock, which makes for interesting variations.
The 553 with the spoked trailing trucks looks to actually have had the origional trucks replaced by Lionel spoked wheels.
I have several 553 examples and see no validation of the spoked wheel theory.
Hi Gang,
I've not posted to this forum for a long time. I was recently diagnosed with Parkinsons & can no long be involved with my trains, most of which are AF 316s O.
that are meticulously refinished & customized. Many were S that I converted to O by switching original trucks. Some are super original versions. Assuming that this foum is not for the purpose of offering items for sale, can any of you provide me with information about dealers and or collectors to whom I might list what I have?
I am unwilling and unable to offer the many specific items via ebay & need to find
buyers who'd ideally want to buy groups of pieces. By groups I don't mean
gaggles that I'd arbitrarily define. The groupings would be defined by the prospective buyers.
Very fortunately I can again talk normally & type coherently. Up until about a month ago I could not type. Meaning, I'd have a clear thought, but when typing.
it'd come out so unreadable that even auto-correct wouldn't understand much or most of the corrupted 'language' Each day I'm taking cocktails of drugs. They're
assisting meaningfully, especially controlling the tremors & messed up balance.
Thanks & happy holidays,
Art (Shiffy) Shifrin
Some
Shiffy48 Hi Gang, I've not posted to this forum for a long time. I was recently diagnosed with Parkinsons & can no long be involved with my trains, most of which are AF 316s O. that are meticulously refinished & customized. Many were S that I converted to O by switching original trucks. Some are super original versions. Assuming that this foum is not for the purpose of offering items for sale, can any of you provide me with information about dealers and or collectors to whom I might list what I have? I am unwilling and unable to offer the many specific items via ebay & need to find buyers who'd ideally want to buy groups of pieces. By groups I don't mean gaggles that I'd arbitrarily define. The groupings would be defined by the prospective buyers. Very fortunately I can again talk normally & type coherently. Up until about a month ago I could not type. Meaning, I'd have a clear thought, but when typing. it'd come out so unreadable that even auto-correct wouldn't understand much or most of the corrupted 'language' Each day I'm taking cocktails of drugs. They're assisting meaningfully, especially controlling the tremors & messed up balance. Thanks & happy holidays, Art (Shiffy) Shifrin Some
That must be a huge letdown for you. Sent you a PM as to what you could do.
Shifty......My thoughts & prayers are with you, I hate to hear when forum members are sick, I hope the medication helps you manage your pain & illness.
I wish you Good Luck with your health & finding your train collection a new home.
-Jason
I have found a box of rough 3/16" O gauge flyer at a train show a few months ago, everything is scratched dented or surface rusted so to be usable I will need to restore them.
I'm looking for some advise with the restoration process. (I have rebuilt a few postwar lionel & prewar flyer O gauge projects before.....Just not 3/16" O gauge flyer)
I have 2 different 565 atlantics with chuggers a bunch of tin freight cars, 2 tin NH style passenger cars and an operating mail pick up car in dark green. It looks like the I think I can make 1 good engine from the 2 (one has bad zinc rot), If I find another engine someday I can make a freight train as well.
I think I have enugh parts to build the set at the bottom of this catalog page.
https://www.eliwhitney.org/catalog7/content/american-flyer-trains-1941-page-14
1st question - Are the driver wheels on the 565 comon to any other engines? I need 1 good driver to get my locomotive going.
2nd question - Is there a good way to unbend the tabs on the mail pick up car & chugger tender, I need to repaint the body shells and service the mechinisims in side, any tips to reassemble the cars to make maintenance easier in the future? I'd hate to break the thin tabs off opening them a second time if I ever need to. Is there an easy way to secure the shells with the tabs un bent? Use magnets or tape? Anyone done this when restoring these?
3rd question - Is there a source or paint code for the dark green used on the tin passenger cars? I dont have a large enugh clean section of green to get a good paint match...my cars are all lightly surface rusted all over.
4th question - Anyone have a good photo of the inside of the mail pick up car or chugger tender?....I'd like to see how the wiring is done corectly, the chugger tender has most of its cloth wires hanging loose where the solder joints fell off. I need a wiring diagram or photo of the insides of both cars...Can anyone help?
Thanks for the help! - Jason
The metal tabs are a problem as they could snap with any movement. I have had to make new ones and soder them on. Of course I have a tender on my B&O pacific that the remnants of the tabs just keep it in place, it has a chugger that works pretty well.
As I look at the chugger the motor is on it's side. The left (lower) field wire connects to the stud on the on/off switch. The right (upper) field wire connects to the left (lower) brush holder. Two wires connect to the right (upper) brush holder and they each go to a pick up on the each truck.
I have every 3/16th prewar engine except the northern and all the drivers are the same size.
I haven't been in either of my prewar mail pickup cars but assume they are similar to the post war ones except that instead of a pick up on the truck that wire goes to the spring on the side of the car that rubs the activation rail.
Advice for "customizing" N.H. four wheel passenger cars:
1) strip off the bodies, polish off any rust
2) remove the window inserts, strip the paint & remove any rust as per step 1
3) paint the bodies as desired
4) polish the window inserts then spray with clear lacquer (I prefer gloss).
5) then reassemble
6) these window frames then simulate stainless steel!
7) for those cars lacking lights, use a base of an illuminated 'junker
This can be costly but the results are spectacular: replace the cheap tinplate tender with an art deco diecast one.
1) obtain INTACT Northern tenders (from O or S versions.) The later are much less likely to have 'metal rot'. Remove the trucks from the S versions.
2) obtain 6 wheel trucks (as I recall) from O Northern or Hudson tenders or 496 or 497 tinplate tenders: install as necessary
3) use trucks that have center rail pickups from the tinplate pullmans IF you want to have chugging assemblies within them
4) then drool over the substantially much more impressive E & T combination!
Thanks for the quick reply guys!
I found this write up on fixing the Chugger over on the Portlines S gauge repair site Here is a link incase it helps anyone else...Thanks Alot Shifty!
http://www.portlines.com/portlinesclinic8.htm
I opened my mail car and saw the wiring is very simple, 2 wires..ground to frame and power from the pick up spring, easy....Just have to find the correct green paint now. I'll post some before & after photos once I have them all fixed up.
Hi folks,
I was wondering if anyone here could help me with a "Gilbert" 3/16-0 set box question. That is, were the yellow trays glued to the bottom of the set boxes. I recently acquired such a set box and was curious if this was done at the factory or maybe by a previous owner. Thanks in advance. Glad I've found this forum!
Need help ID on this set. Late 30s? No number on the engine.
Collegeville Bill,
I'm sure that you realize that your photo didn't post. Please try again. There are instructions posted on the home page for how to post photos if you need help. If you post the numbers on the individual pieces, or describe them, someone here is sure to be able to help you identify the set.
Hi to all, found this thread yesterday. I am a big fan of American Flyer O gauge and glad to know there are others out there. Currently bidding on a couple items (hope not against you), a Royal Blue engine only and a 565 Atlantic engine. My favorite engine in the train shed is a Green Diamond Streamliner. Quick question on Royal Blue driver wheels, are they avaiable or does one need to buy several engines and salvage parts that are good to make a runner?
I did some searching on the internet for parts and found a decal supplier and possibly some linkage parts for one side, not much else for the Royal Blue. Thanks in advance.
Mayor of Railtown
Hi to all, update to previous entry. The information on this thread has been very helpful, thanks.
Now about 3 weeks down the road, I have purchased American Flyers, 561, 565, & a Royal Blue loco with chugger in tender, plus lots of spare parts$, my wife is very understanding, that is why I put her on the board of trustees at Railtown!
As of today the 561 is back in revenue service, who knows how many years it had been in storage! It needed some restoration, but not too bad. I replaced pilot wheels and rear wheels, one flanged driver. Gave it a good tune up. Over the years like many of you I have operated many model trains in many scales. This engine is one of my favorites. Runs smooth, great side rod action, good detail, classic Pennsylvania K5 good looks.
Now to work on the 565 and the Royal Blue and chugger that is not operating yet. Please correct me if I am incorrect on this. The 561, 565, & Royal Blue all use the same large flanged driver wheels. This is a big help when locating solid used wheels on the internet. Also it appears the 561 and Royal Blue use the same motor armature with a 1/8" input shaft and the 565 uses a 1/16" input shaft armature. I mention this just in case someone buys a loco with a bad armature and sees a donor unit for sale and wants to get the armature from it. Hope you all are having some fun with the worlds greatest hobby, until next time!
I have had a few observations about the repair parts you mentioned above. I had bought a box lot that had 3 565 engines in it, one had bad zinc rot but a good armature and the other was solid and nice but had a worn armature communtator, i figured i could swap the motor parts but had found out the following things about the 565.
Hi Rack 776, I can identify with you on the challenges of getting all the parts to restore these wonderful AF 3/16" O engines.
Your right on how brittle those wheels can be. One thing that has helped me when pulling a wheel with a battery terminal type puller is to put a thin wood popsicle stick (sold for craft projects) between the flange and the puller to spread the load over a larger area. The wood also gives and softens the contact point to help avoid cracking a flange edge. If there is room I use a standard gauge wheel puller which also has a larger area of load spread and can be adjusted to pull wheel straight up and not at a slight angle.
Since my last entry where I shared on motor armature shaft sizes for the #561, #565, & #556, I have found there are variations. In agreement with you there may be some variations between prewar and postwar models. A second #556 Royal Blue I purchased had a different size motor armature shaft size due to variation or possibly someone switched a different model 6 driver wheel & motor assembly with the shell.
You probably enjoy restoring an engine to life as I do also. Those Royal Blues are the hardest for me to complete. Had to fabricate a four wheel front pilot truck for one. Now have two good runners minus some of the side rod linkage, but may have to bite the bullet and pay the $$$ for a nice complete one. I purchased two #565's with one to be a donor. You guessed it, I ended up fixing them both.
Glad to hear from another American Flyer 3/16" O gauge enthusiast!
I'd like to pick up some O Gauge Flyer at some point. The zinc pest seems to be a problem with the Prewar stuff. Is it just the wheels, or does it affect the boilers? and are there replacement wheels out there?
thanks from an L&M guy.
Dave
It's a TOY, A child's PLAYTHING!!! (Woody from Toy Story)
Hey Dave,
hope you do get a few O gauge Flyers. Zinc pest can be a problem on both the wheels and the boiler shells. If you look carefully at the pictures on Internet sales, the bad wheels are easy to see. Lots of cracks or flaking. However on a Royal Blue I purchased the shell looked good in the pictures but the cab was badly warped. I'm open now to paying more for one already in good shape, the nice thing is one can shop and choose what amount of fixing up if any one is willing to do. Economically sometimes you are ahead to buy better condition. No one makes replacement driver wheels at this time as far as I have found after much searching parts suppiers and forums (hope I am wrong). Did get a new repro 4 wheel pilot truck that an individual sold on Ebay for a #561. Repro rear truck wheels with axle show up now and then for #565 and#556 on Ebay , I've purchased three and a nice used front 4 wheel truck for a #565.
Have a good one,
LL675 I'd like to pick up some O Gauge Flyer at some point. The zinc pest seems to be a problem with the Prewar stuff. Is it just the wheels, or does it affect the boilers? and are there replacement wheels out there? thanks from an L&M guy.
There is no easy answer to this question. Zinc pest can affect some boilers, but I would say if it is going to happen, it already has by now. There are some replacement wheels available, but again, it depends on the specific wheel.
I like fier uppers. I've done several Lionels from bare shells bought in junk lots. maybe not the best price wise, but i have plenty of ready to runs, and the parts hunt is half the fun.
Hello All,
Haven't posted here for a while but I do have a question. I recentley purchased a 490 Whistling Baggage Car. I have an O gauge fastrak layout. Using these newer Lionel transformers that come with the ready to run sets, will this make the whistle work? Also, if someone can shoot me a picture of the wiring on the bottom I would appreciate it as I need to rewire it.
Thanks
I have encountered zinc pest on Wheels and on the gears in Flyer switches. To make a working part without replacing I soaked the piece in a super runny super glue. It seams to keep the thing together. I also add J-B weld to make missing flanges on wheels, teeth on the switch gears and fill in any holes. I file the piece into shape. This has worked will for me and I have yet to redo a repair and it has been 4-5 years on some of the fixes. It ain't perfect but I know of no one making replacement Flyer O gauge switch parts that were diecast.
Hi Guys,
Quite a while since I have posted here, but, knowing this is the place for AF 3/16 info, I'll jump in. Recently acquired a black tin 564 tender in acceptable but not mint condition. Four wheel trucks, each with a centre rail pickup, red rimmed connection socket on front, link coupler (link missing) and something large and heavy rattling around inside.
I guess it is a chugger unit, but thought the tender number would be 564C if fitted with chugger? Perhaps 564C only appears in catalogs, not on the product? I suppose the only way to find out is twist a few tabs and lift the top off.
Which loco would have pulled this tender?
Thanks.
Graeme, Scotland
Hi Graeme, glad to hear you are doing some work on the AF 3/16 sector. I'll leave it to more knowledgable forum members to answer your question. Please let us know what you find inside the tender. Hopefully more than a lead weight, but that might be the case.
have a good one, the Mayor of Railtown
I believe the 484 with the chugger chassis would date to 1942. Production stopped in May and sales stopped at the end of July that year. On the production line Gilbert was using up remaining inventory.
Gray Cat Please use this thread only for prewar American Flyer 3/16" O gauge trains manufactured by The A.C. Gilbert Co. as offered in the 1938-1941 catalogs. Pictures, stories, repairs, discussion, opinion. (although some of these pictures are in Northwoods Flyer's superb thread I felt it was time to give the Prewar 3/16" their own space) CHECK BACK OFTEN, I WILL BE ADDING PICTURES THROUGH OUT THE THREAD AS I ADD PIECES TO MY COLLECTION. I'M TRYING TO KEEP THEM ORGANIZED. ALSO A THANK YOU TO THOSE THAT HAVE CONTRIBUTED AND THOSE THAT WILL! The thing that amazes me and surprises me is how little is known about these trains. They were really only manufactured for 4 years. They are not well known and not seen for sale that often. I would like to get this thread going with any pictures, information or discussion about ONLY 1938-1941 era Prewar American Flyer 3/16" trains.. I have been an American Flyer S gauge collector for more years than I care to remember. I've read "The Man Who Lives In Paradise" at least a few times and each time I do and as more time goes by I'm more and more fascinated by A.C. Gilbert and his accomplishments. Recently I discovered prewar AF 3/16" gauge trains almost by accident. I wanted a smaller layout to display some trains in a game room until I completed my large S layout room. I started out with a simple 5 by 9 layout and found that I just couldn't squeeze enough Flyer S onto it. SO I did the layout in O. First with Lionel.. that didn't last long as it always felt like I was cheating on a spouse or something like that. I moved over to Chicago Flyer since it was "American Flyer" and although nice it just didn't have the same appeal to me as S gauge. Well quite by accident I stumbled upon a guy that had some prewar 3/16" Flyer for sale. I bought it and was instantly bit by the bug! It was the perfect fit. These trains were the granddaddy's to my S gauge. These are the hot shots that started it all. To date I have amassed a small but interesting collection of these early Gilbert trains and their operating accessories. I truly look forward to any and all information concerning these trains.. Also dose any one have a wiring diagram 1941 American Flyer 553, I have been looking for something for over a month. If anybody has information I would be very greatful for help My e-mail is walt53ford@charter.net .Thank you Tom
Please use this thread only for prewar American Flyer 3/16" O gauge trains manufactured by The A.C. Gilbert Co. as offered in the 1938-1941 catalogs. Pictures, stories, repairs, discussion, opinion.
(although some of these pictures are in Northwoods Flyer's superb thread I felt it was time to give the Prewar 3/16" their own space)
CHECK BACK OFTEN, I WILL BE ADDING PICTURES THROUGH OUT THE THREAD AS I ADD PIECES TO MY COLLECTION. I'M TRYING TO KEEP THEM ORGANIZED.
ALSO A THANK YOU TO THOSE THAT HAVE CONTRIBUTED AND THOSE THAT WILL!
The thing that amazes me and surprises me is how little is known about these trains. They were really only manufactured for 4 years. They are not well known and not seen for sale that often. I would like to get this thread going with any pictures, information or discussion about ONLY 1938-1941 era Prewar American Flyer 3/16" trains..
I have been an American Flyer S gauge collector for more years than I care to remember. I've read "The Man Who Lives In Paradise" at least a few times and each time I do and as more time goes by I'm more and more fascinated by A.C. Gilbert and his accomplishments. Recently I discovered prewar AF 3/16" gauge trains almost by accident. I wanted a smaller layout to display some trains in a game room until I completed my large S layout room. I started out with a simple 5 by 9 layout and found that I just couldn't squeeze enough Flyer S onto it. SO I did the layout in O. First with Lionel.. that didn't last long as it always felt like I was cheating on a spouse or something like that. I moved over to Chicago Flyer since it was "American Flyer" and although nice it just didn't have the same appeal to me as S gauge. Well quite by accident I stumbled upon a guy that had some prewar 3/16" Flyer for sale. I bought it and was instantly bit by the bug! It was the perfect fit. These trains were the granddaddy's to my S gauge. These are the hot shots that started it all. To date I have amassed a small but interesting collection of these early Gilbert trains and their operating accessories.
I truly look forward to any and all information concerning these trains.. Also
dose any one have a wiring diagram 1941 American Flyer 553, I have been
looking for something for over a month. If anybody has information I would
be very greatful for help My e-mail is walt53ford@charter.net .Thank you Tom
rack776 I have found a box of rough 3/16" O gauge flyer at a train show a few months ago, everything is scratched dented or surface rusted so to be usable I will need to restore them. I'm looking for some advise with the restoration process. (I have rebuilt a few postwar lionel & prewar flyer O gauge projects before.....Just not 3/16" O gauge flyer) I have 2 different 565 atlantics with chuggers a bunch of tin freight cars, 2 tin NH style passenger cars and an operating mail pick up car in dark green. It looks like the I think I can make 1 good engine from the 2 (one has bad zinc rot), If I find another engine someday I can make a freight train as well. I think I have enugh parts to build the set at the bottom of this catalog page. https://www.eliwhitney.org/catalog7/content/american-flyer-trains-1941-page-14 1st question - Are the driver wheels on the 565 comon to any other engines? I need 1 good driver to get my locomotive going. 2nd question - Is there a good way to unbend the tabs on the mail pick up car & chugger tender, I need to repaint the body shells and service the mechinisims in side, any tips to reassemble the cars to make maintenance easier in the future? I'd hate to break the thin tabs off opening them a second time if I ever need to. Is there an easy way to secure the shells with the tabs un bent? Use magnets or tape? Anyone done this when restoring these? 3rd question - Is there a source or paint code for the dark green used on the tin passenger cars? I dont have a large enugh clean section of green to get a good paint match...my cars are all lightly surface rusted all over. 4th question - Anyone have a good photo of the inside of the mail pick up car or chugger tender?....I'd like to see how the wiring is done corectly, the chugger tender has most of its cloth wires hanging loose where the solder joints fell off. I need a wiring diagram or photo of the insides of both cars...Can anyone help? Thanks for the help! - Jason On bending your tabs I found if heat your tabs with a soliderig iron a short time before straighting them will save them from braking. This works on most. hope this helps. Tom
On bending your tabs I found if heat your tabs with a soliderig iron
a short time before straighting them will save them from braking.
This works on most. hope this helps. Tom
I have something to bring attention to a rather rare thing for 3/16 prear AF engines. It is the ruber tire grove that some of the egines came with. I had a prewar hudson (531) with rear wheels grove for a rubber band. I let it go years ago before realizing what I had was unique. Years later I was able to buy a prewar O/S 6 wheel motor with the rear wheels groved for the rubber band (still have it). I was able to fit the post war wheel rubber bands onto the wheels. Of all the many O/S engines I have none other have the grove
Ken Wilson
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