Trains.com

Steam whistle stuck on

12635 views
36 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    January 2024
  • 2 posts
Posted by pm14450 on Monday, January 22, 2024 1:53 PM

Thanks!!!! Those TVS seem to be the priciest ones on-line. I can get 1.5ke33ca or 1.5ke39ca fairily cheap. Would either of these be an acceptable substitution?

pm14450

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Hopewell, NY
  • 3,230 posts
Posted by ADCX Rob on Thursday, January 18, 2024 7:47 PM

pm14450
Is the TVS you referred to above a unidirectional or Bidirectional device? if unidirectional, what is the orientation in the circuit. I am assuming this is installed in parallel accross the red and black wires feeding the circuit board and motor.



Yes, bidirectional.




Rob

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 9,728 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, January 18, 2024 5:44 PM

For what it's worth the same thing happened to me about a year or so ago, the whistle started blowing as soon as power was applied to the track.  I use MTH Z-1000 tranformers.  I replaced the circuit board and that solved the problem. 

  • Member since
    January 2024
  • 2 posts
Posted by pm14450 on Thursday, January 18, 2024 12:26 PM

lionelsoni

A suitable TVS is the 36-volt 1.5KE36CA.  The mouser part number is 625-1.5KE36CA-E3 and it sells for 71 cents:  http://jp.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=625-1.5KE36CA-E3 .  It looks like a diode, about .2 inch in diameter and .33 inch long.

Hi Bob, hopefully you are still active in this thread/ community. 

in regards to this old post, I am fighting this battle now and have some basic questions. 

My set up includes a 1033 transformer and a 6-16673 tender. I use the U-A output with U on the center rail and the whistle is stuck on.....

Is the TVS you referred to above a unidirectional or Bidirectional device? if unidirectional, what is the orientation in the circuit. I am assuming this is installed in parallel accross the red and black wires feeding the circuit board and motor. 

 

Thanks in advance. pm14450

  • Member since
    July 2023
  • 1 posts
Posted by SteveBoatworks on Saturday, July 29, 2023 1:19 PM

Hi Bill,

I have the same issue that Mickey had,  Do you still have any of those whistle control boards , if so, please let me know.

THanks

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Saturday, January 21, 2012 8:40 AM

Congratulations!  I know the feeling of satisfaction in managing to fix something that most people would throw away.  And thanks for letting us know about your success.

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 92 posts
Posted by kgstones on Saturday, January 21, 2012 7:13 AM

Thanks again for all your help.  I received the transistors and replaced the one on the whistle board and it now works perfectly.  So, rather than buy a new board it was worth fixing the one I had.  Thanks again for all your input, that goes for everyone that pitched in, I really appreciate it and have learned a lot from all of you.

Mickey

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 92 posts
Posted by kgstones on Saturday, January 14, 2012 6:46 AM

Thanks Larry and Bob,

With all your help I should be OK.  I've soldered other things and can do just about anything once I know what I'm supposed to do.  My problem, as stated earlier, is I'm not familiar with small electronic components.  I see the new transistors have pretty long leads so the transistor can be kept away from the base of the card.  I suppose it depends on the space available and keeping one component away from another so they don't short each other out.  I enjoy working on stuff like this and would rather fix something if possible rather than replace and through out an almost good piece of equipment.

Thanks again for your interest in my project,

Mickey

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Friday, January 13, 2012 9:24 PM

Modern reflow production techniques involve placing small amounts of solder at the points where connections are to be made and then heating the entire circuit-card assembly to the melting point of the solder, semiconductor devices and all, in an oven or with hot air.  The kind of heat that can destroy a silicon device is likely to be heat generated inside the device by its own operation, not heat applied from outside.

Using a heat sink on a lead to be soldered is however harmless.

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    October 2011
  • 969 posts
Posted by TrainLarry on Friday, January 13, 2012 6:49 PM

  Mickey,

  To clean off old solder from circuit boards and holes, use a desoldering braid available from Radio Shack. Heat up the joint through the braid, and the braid sucks up the solder through capillary action.

  After overvoltage surges, heat is the #2 enemy of semiconductors. Even though silicon transistors may be more tolerant of heat, it is always good practice to use a heat sink when soldering in a new device. A small tweezer with a rubber band to hold it closed, or an alligator clip from a jumper wire should be placed as close to the body of the device to protect the device from overheating.

Larry

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 92 posts
Posted by kgstones on Friday, January 13, 2012 10:09 AM

Thanks again as always.  Once I get this accomplished I'll post again here just in case anyone is curious as to the outcome.

Mickey

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Friday, January 13, 2012 9:03 AM

As long as there's one TVS across the circuit anywhere, everything on that circuit should be protected, including other locomotives on the same track.  But using multiple TVSs has no downside, since they are essentially open circuits until a voltage spike comes along.  If you put them in your locomotives, then those locomotives are protected wherever they run, on your track or someone else's.  If you put them on your transformer or track, then any locomotives that you run there are protected, whether they are your, already protected, locomotives or someone else's that may not have been protected.

To clean out a hole, just heat the pad and then quickly rap the card on the table.

It takes a lot of heat to damage a modern silicon transistor.  Heat was a problem decades ago with the early germanium transistors, but silicon is much more robust.  But don't apply more heat than will give you a good solid joint.  You are in more danger of lifting the pads off the card than ruining the transistor.

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • 993 posts
Posted by gunrunnerjohn on Friday, January 13, 2012 8:18 AM

I put a TVS diode directly across the pickups of anything I have that's electronic and rolls the rails.  That's the best way to use those.

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 92 posts
Posted by kgstones on Friday, January 13, 2012 7:38 AM

Thanks Bob and everyone else for all your help.

As soon as I get my hands on some of these parts I'll get to work.  If I put in place a TVS in the whistle tender and not between the transformer terminals just yet will that at least protect the whistle card or do I have to do both at the same time?

I'm anticipating that when I pull the leads of the bad transistor out of the card the holes for the new leads will be clogged with solder.  Is there some trick to getting the new leads into the card?  I don't have a desoldering tool.  I'm also assuming the transistor could be damaged by heat so I should be careful when soldering the new one to the card.  Sorry about all this mundane stuff but I'm new at this.

Thanks again for you help,

Mickey

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Thursday, January 12, 2012 11:56 AM

A suitable TVS is the 36-volt 1.5KE36CA.  The mouser part number is 625-1.5KE36CA-E3 and it sells for 71 cents:  http://jp.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=625-1.5KE36CA-E3 .  It looks like a diode, about .2 inch in diameter and .33 inch long.

I would go with the 1.2-ampere Fairchild part, at 16 cents:  http://jp.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=ljbEvF4DwOPubMDR4k2uVg%3D%3D .

You can test a transistor (out of the circuit) for gross failure with a simple analog ohmmeter.  Put it on the Rx1 scale.  Connect the more-positive meter lead to the collector.  (This is more often the black lead.)  Connect the more-negative meter lead to the emitter.  If the resistance is very low, that is, a few ohms as compared to megohms, the transistor is bad.  If not, grab the metal of the collector lead with one hand.  Touch the end of the base lead with a finger of the left hand.  If the needle moves up, the transistor is probably good.

However, it is very unlikely that a new transistor will be bad.  I would just install it rather than risk damaging it by trying to test it.

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 92 posts
Posted by kgstones on Thursday, January 12, 2012 10:54 AM

I've been trying to learn a bit more about these components.  My knowledge is very limited.  I tried to locate the TVSs and from what I'm seeing they're a bit expensive, much more than the card itself.  Plus I can't tell what they look like and what size they are.  If that's true then I'm probably over doing this by trying to fix the card beyond just replacing the Darlington transistor.

Secondly, it appears these transistors come with different specs.  Is the one you're recommending a 100MHz, 30V, 1.2A or 0.5A.  I downloaded the data sheet from Mouser and it looks like the 512-MPSA13 is 1.2A.

And, is there a way to check whether the transistor is good or not before installing it?

Thanks again for all your help.

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Wednesday, January 11, 2012 8:46 PM

I don't recognize the part number; so I can't say whether it would be easy to find locally.  Mouser says that the part is going obsolete.  But they still have thousands in stock.

lf you want to fix it, I suggest buying a handful of those transistors and some transient-voltage suppressors (TVSs).  Put a TVS between the red and black wires to protect the gadget from the voltage spikes that probably killed it.  Put the other TVSs across your transformer terminals.

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 92 posts
Posted by kgstones on Wednesday, January 11, 2012 3:55 PM

Is this something that will probably happen again?  Our grand kids are the ones who run the trains mostly and they like the whistle.  So with more use is this going to happen again so I should get a number of these just in case?  From what you're saying I have the "95" card.  Can I upgrade it to the "98" card so that this is less likely to re-occur?  If so, how would I do that and/or is it worth it?

Following your instructions I shouldn't have a problem doing this.  Is the MPSA13 Darlington transistor a common item that I might find at a local electronics supplier?

Thanks to all of you for your help.

Mickey

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 92 posts
Posted by kgstones on Wednesday, January 11, 2012 3:45 PM

It has AMPS, A13 on it.

Thanks, Mickey

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Wednesday, January 11, 2012 3:35 PM

It looks like I got it right.  I notice that the card marked "98" has a 7500-ohm resistor, while the "95" card has 4700.

You can get the MPSA13 Darlington transistor (Q1) from Mouser (their part number 512-MPSA13) for 16 cents, plus $4.95 shipping by USPS.  I would order several if I were you.

Replacing Q1 should be easy.  Just cut off the bad transistor, unsolder the leads one by one, and solder in a good one with the same orientation.

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • 993 posts
Posted by gunrunnerjohn on Wednesday, January 11, 2012 3:24 PM

Well, the top suspect is clearly Q1, it's the only thing on the board that appears to offer the switching capability.  What are the numbers on that part?

 

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 92 posts
Posted by kgstones on Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:46 PM

I can solder this sort of thing as long as I find out what to do.  I don't know much about circuit boards and their components but would like to learn.  Here are a few more images of the back of the board and the top as well.

As I stated I don't know what each of the components is or does but would be willing to try fixing it once I knew what to do.  I really appreciate everyone's input.  A new board is only $7 and I don't know what the component I need to replace would cost or where to get it.  We have several electronics places here in town along with Radio Shack.

Thanks again,

Mickey

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 92 posts
Posted by kgstones on Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:25 PM

I can solder this sort of thing as long as I find out what to do.  I don't know much about circuit boards and their components but would like to learn.  Here are a few more images of the back of the board and the top as well.

As I stated I don't know what each of the components is or does but would be willing to try fixing it once I knew what to do.  I really appreciate everyone's input.  A new board is only $7 and I don't know what the component I need to replace would cost or where to get it.  We have several electronics places here in town along with Radio Shack.

Thanks again,

Mickey

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Wednesday, January 11, 2012 9:10 AM

It would help to see the other side of the circuit card.  But it all looks so simple that I will go out on a limb and say that the diode and the larger capacitor are the DC power supply.  The 7500-ohm resistor and the smaller capacitor low-pass filter the track voltage to get the DC component that commands the whistle to blow.  The 10-kilohm resistor drives the base of what has been identified as a 500-milliampere Darlington transistor to apply the DC supply to the whistle motor.

The Darlington looks like the only possible component whose failure could make the whistle blow continuously.  Transistors typically fail shorted.  I'll bet that the assembly can be repaired simply by replacing it.

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • 993 posts
Posted by gunrunnerjohn on Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:30 AM

Maybe that little one at Q1 is sufficient for the motor?  Are there any parts on the other side?

  • Member since
    October 2011
  • 969 posts
Posted by TrainLarry on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 6:54 PM

A top-down view of the board is here.

Larry

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 218 posts
Posted by Boxcar Bill on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:35 PM

I would say the darlington amplifer is bad.  If I remember correctly the PN for the NPN darlington is MPSA13. I just replace the boards now. If you need a board I have them. 

 

Bill

Factory Trained Lionel Service Tech.
  • Member since
    July 2009
  • 951 posts
Posted by servoguy on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 4:50 PM

Your picture doesn't show the parts that likely are bad.  Somewhere on the board there must be a power transistor or electronic switch that turns on the motor.  In order to check transistors and diodes you need a meter and you need to know how to check simple semiconductors.  Diodes are very simple.  Transistors are a little more complex, but still simple.  Integrated circuits normally cannot be easily checked with a meter.  

Give us some better pictures and it is possible we could walk you through finding the bad part.

My experience with this stuff is that often the circuit designer will use a transistor that is too small, and the high current density at the junction will turn the transistor into a short circuit.  

If you can, take the circuit board off of the sticky pad that holds it and give us a picture of the back side.  This circuit looks pretty simple, so there is a chance it can be fixed.  You will need to know how to solder and have a low wattage soldering iron, maybe about 25 watts.

The QA sticker is likely the sticker of the quality assurance tester that tested the board.

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 92 posts
Posted by kgstones on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 9:05 AM

OK, thanks.  I'm wondering if anyone knows what part on that board is faulty and if it could be replaced.  Maybe it's just better to replace the whole board.  And, if that's what I do, I'm wondering if there is another board with better features that I could use in it's place.

Thanks all,

Mickey

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

FREE EMAIL NEWSLETTER

Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month