Selonoid vs. motorized switch machines (& vs. air)

[FJ and G]

I have played around with a choke cable that I picked up from an auto parts store (many auto stores no longer carry them). It didn't work well for me because I had too many bends in the cable. In retrospect, I should have attached it to a rod going up thru the layout.

dav

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lionelsoni

I like solenoid switches for the non-derailing feature and the ability to throw multiple switches with a single control; so I don't have any experience with manual remote control. However, I'm not going to let that stop me from proposing what I think would be the best way to do that.

I would use a choke cable. I would make a sharp right-angle bend in the center wire at the end, at a point that would limit to a reasonable distance how far the knob can be pulled out. I would clamp the sheath horizontally to the bottom of the table, near the switch, with the center wire going vertically through a hole in the table to the switch points. I would adjust the sheath so that, with the knob pulled out as far as it would go, the vertical wire would be bent slightly from the vertical to create a little spring force to pu***he point against the stock rail. I would screw a wood block to the bottom of the table to provide a similar stop in the other direction.

For a thin table-top, where the spring force of the center wire might be too great and the adjustment of the force too sensitive, I would simply space the cable attachment lower, away from the bottom of the table, to get the desired springiness.

Bob:

There's this stuff that Big_Boy_4005 likes to use form the R/C Plane hobby called NyRod which is essentially a choke cable made out of nylon. You get the same effects & the nylon is really very low friction.

I've used the stuff in a couple of model planes about 24+ years ago. Really works well. It would be excellent for this application as a substitute for the choke cable.

Tony

[lionelsoni]

I like solenoid switches for the non-derailing feature and the ability to throw multiple switches with a single control; so I don't have any experience with manual remote control. However, I'm not going to let that stop me from proposing what I think would be the best way to do that.

I would use a choke cable. I would make a sharp right-angle bend in the center wire at the end, at a point that would limit to a reasonable distance how far the knob can be pulled out. I would clamp the sheath horizontally to the bottom of the table, near the switch, with the center wire going vertically through a hole in the table to the switch points. I would adjust the sheath so that, with the knob pulled out as far as it would go, the vertical wire would be bent slightly from the vertical to create a little spring force to pu***he point against the stock rail. I would screw a wood block to the bottom of the table to provide a similar stop in the other direction.

For a thin table-top, where the spring force of the center wire might be too great and the adjustment of the force too sensitive, I would simply space the cable attachment lower, away from the bottom of the table, to get the desired springiness.

[FJ and G]

Woodsy,

Some folks use hooks rather than sleeves. The only place where a sleeve might be needed is around a tricky corner or perhaps in the hole that goes up through the layout to the turnout.

I agree w/you that manual control is best where it is within reach and esp. at spurs. However, at turnaround loops remote is the way to go so you can just kick back & watch trains.

[Anonymous]

dave, thanks.
it seems to me that with piano wires and sleeves (ala RC plane type elevator/aileron/rudder controls) you could control all your switches (if you were so inclined) the spring tension to bring the rail points tight against the outer rails is the only problem i cant find a simple solution to yet. i dont know if i'll do it,... but it interests me. i suppose you could use the piano wire running through a poly-sleeve to throw your old burnt-out switch motor arm and that could provide the spring[:)]

also, i remeber seeing a non-powered/controlled switch on an HO layout when i was a kid. it just swung back and forth under the push of the loco's wheels. i'm sure it took some finesse to get it working well but... it worked. i think the fella had all the extra switch point guts ripped out too, all the extra plastic and trim and control arm stuff was removed to make it move easily.
anyhow... i look forward to flipping my own switches. (or at least trying to[:D]

seems more like "honest railroading" to me. it's just my opinion, and is not how everybody should do it according to the woodsy bible. [8D][;)]

[FJ and G]

In a couple of issues ago of MR, there's a really nice feature article of a layout that features a trackside tower in which the switch dude could control the turnouts all over the yard. It is a pneumatic process, I think. Can't recall all of the details but unfortunately, it was modeled as a dummy, with a lot of pipes and stuff. I have no idea what it's called because my magazine is in the garage somewhere.

Woodsey,

That's a good question and in most mag articles reg. manual throw levers, the functioning of the spring is very poorly explained. I too would like to know more about how it works. I understand that you can design your own spring from a paper clip.

Anyway, here's how I believe that it works. The spring is brought into tension in one position and when the tension is released, the spring kicks the points the other way and the switch is thrown.

You can bring the spring into tension by positioning the hand knob in such a way that it pulls against the spring. I could draw it better in a diagram than talking about it.

One type of turnout we didn't discuss is the "non-powered automatic turnout." This type would most commonly be used on a reverse loop. It's a manual switch with no power or wiring of any type. When the train enters the turnout to go into the loop, it goes whichever direction the turnout is turned. Then coming out of the loop, the wheels of the train force the turnout open to the other direction.

This type of turnout requires a weak spring so that the wheels force the point to the other side where they will remain and not pop out halfway. Requires some experimenting. This is the most efficient, hands-off turnout of any because no power is required and everything is automatic.

dav

[Anonymous]

how many folks use the manual type switch throws and piano wire tricks? i am re-re-re-re-drawing track plans for my basement space and keep ending up with most of my turnouts in one area and close to where i plan to put the control desk. so i am re-thinking the switch controls.

i currently have almost 30 selenoids to use for my switches but they all have about 20 years since they came "out of the box" and about the last 10 years in storage. they all worked when removed from the old table but...

the selenoids provide spring pressure to keep them closed. the manual throw levers have some friction to keep the switch closed. how does the piano wire method keep the switch closed?

[Anonymous]

I bought most of my Tortoise machines from Charles Ro. 2003 price was $12.50

Here is a photo of one installed on my layout.

[jkerklo]

Thanks Elloit, for the correct terminology. I do like to be correct and exact.

Note to readers. Everywhere in previous posts I have used the term "frog," change to "points."

Bob, I will give a call.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[jkerklo]

Thanks Dave. Good references.

From the website information, either device would do the job.

I note that neither mentions non-derailing, something 2-rail guys don't commonly implement.

The "Rotor Motor" site shows using AC power and diodes. This allows an SPDT switch to be used for control, rather than a DPDT switch. And saves having a DC supply.

The Torquemaster could be operated with the diodes as well.

The Torquemaster installation instructions would also be useful for the "Rotor Motor" device.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[lionelsoni]

John, you will have to call him at 1-877-250-1833.

[Big_Boy_4005]

John, as far as I know tortoise is a brand name, and there is only one machine. You would like them for animation. They are basicly a stall motor in a green housing.

In an aplication with a generic stall motor, you work directly with a rotating motion. Tortoise has an arm attached to the concealed motor, and only the arm sticks out of the housing, leaving a limited back and forth motion. The boy with the kite was activated by a push button energizing the motor, and tilting the boy and the wire that the kite was attached to back, lifting the kite. When the button was released gravity boy and kite to their resting position. I didn't design this item, one of the guys working for me came up with the idea. His name is Ken Olson, but I haven't seen him in 5 years, very clever guy and good with electronics.

One minor correction John, it is the points on a turnout that move, not the frog. The frog is where the rails cross each other. I understood what you meant.

Bob, yes I do make my linkages with some over throw, to insure that the close solidly. Each is custom done for the situation and tested. The screw drive machine has a lot of throw, and the clevis and nyrod arrangement allow for a good amount of adjustment. It all helps make life easy.

Flyer, what you are refering to is what the real railroads call a "spring switch". On occasion it is a very handy thing to do, and I have done that too. I even have used switches that have no motor and can't be thrown. These will always send the train in one direction when it passes through in the "facing point" direction, but allows any trailing point movement. This is very handy in special locations, and I will have a couple in my hidden yard, lead.

[FJ and G]

a couple of interesting sites:

http://www.tastudios.com/torquemaster/torquemaster.htm

http://www.railwayeng.com/switch.htm

[jkerklo]

Bob, I clicked the URL, but couldn't find any reference to tortoise machines.

Did I miss something?

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[lionelsoni]

I bought 10 of them a while back from Eastern Classics, www.trainsarefun.com . As far as I know, there is only one model and one brand, "Tortoise".

[jkerklo]

I would be interested in specific brand/model designations for the tortoise devices being discussed. I am intrigued and would like to get some for playing around.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[lionelsoni]

Elliot, you probably have alread thought of this: A spring or a little deliberate elasticity in the linkage between switch motor and switch will allow a little overtravel of the motor and make adjustment of the travel much less critical than with a stiff linkage.

I have successfully used a Tortoise to actuate a Marx semaphore. I drilled a hole in the case to access the arm that the motor moves at a point where it has the right amount of travel, then mounted the machine on its side under the table, with a pushrod through the Tortoise's hole and a brass tube through the table to push up on the vertical rod inside the semaphore mast that actuates the spectacle. By using the built-in electrical contacts, I was able to make it stop in the approach (yellow) position. The whole thing runs off 12 volts DC and uses no relays nor active electronics to replicate the behavior of a prototype block signal.

[Anonymous]

I don't have my Tortoise machines non-derailing. It is possible to use a flexible actuating wire that will allow the flange of a wheel to force the switch open. A neat no cost approach for someone with heavy rolling stock.

I prefer to wire signals and center rail sections via relays to stop the train if the switch is thrown. I don't want a train to throw a switch if I have another train approaching on the other track.

By the way Dave, 6 months to a year ago you inquired about operationing a semaphore in 3 positions using a Tortoise. I have successfully done this using one Tortoise with two relays. One relay for each of two blocks. One relay slowly moves the arm to the stop position. When the train advances to the next block, the next relay slowly moves the arm to the caution position. I use the internal contacts in the Tortoise with no modification to position the arm in the caution position.

[FJ and G]

John,

As I mentioned above, "I plan to get some". I don't have any now. I may just get a few to play with to see how the timing works on them. I always can use them for other things on the layout.

However, in the case of a short turnaround loops where speed is of the essence, a selonoid-activated switch may be just the thing; esp if you run trains fast.

Interestingly, I am one of the slow-train runners, but the stretch of track I'm modeling on the Belen Cutoff, ironically, is one of the fastest speedways in the country with freights going upwards of 80 mph.

Thanks for your explanation and note of caution on the timing.

dav

[jkerklo]

Dave,

I have only played with one type of tortoise type switch machine, and it worked as follows:

There was only one DC motor, which operated in stall to hold the frog in position. The motor direction, and applied power polarity, was used to determine switch position.

Instructions showed using a DPDT electrical switch on a control panel for changing switch direction. The switch machine also had some contacts that changed whenever the frog was positioned one way or the other. These were intended to be used to control a train so it wouldn't enter the switch until it had completed the switching action. All instructions assumed DC trains, so HO or O-Scale, no mention of AC trains.

I fooled around with it so I could run it off AC power (using diodes for the switch motor) and provide non-derailing using two relays. It worked well, but I decided to use high-rail track and Lionel O72 switches on the layout.

Does the tortoise switch machine you are using come with a non-derailing feature, or did you have to come up with a relay circuit?

The main problem is in locating the insulated track section to "account for the time it takes to throw the switch." If your loop is large enough, no problem. But in situations where there are multiple switches close together, control gets tricky. Can be done, but a routing control mechanism is the usual result.

A "couple of feet back" may not be enough. It depends on the time to throw the switch and train speed.

I did find that I could speed up the switching action by applying a higher voltage, but this voltage was too high for stall mode. Another relay was used to drop the voltage when switching action was completed. This was too much complication for a bunch of switches, so I decided I would use O22 switch mechanisms (without the track part) to control the Gargraves switches I was playing with. I ended up using high-rail track, so never actually used either approach on a layout.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Big_Boy_4005]

At enterTRAINment we used one for a boy flying a kite. They have a nice motion.

[FJ and G]

John K.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I plan to get some Tortoises on the layout to use in an elongated reverse loop with the non-derailing feature. I believe that the key to making it non-derailing and to account for the time it takes throw the points, is to insulate the track a couple of feet back instead of right at the turnout. Once the train (or cars) cross the insulated section, then the Tortoise is activated automatically.

Roger,

I've seen tortoises used in a variety of ways, connected to accessories by thin metal rods or piano wire, depending upon the application. In fact, I've seen them used on a fully animated HO layout, opening and closing lift bridges and opening the doors to the engine house and then closing them. I really can't recall all of the other applications but there were others.


dav

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: This device could even be modified and lengthened to create motion for a home made animation. I was actually thinking of using something like this to move a 282 crane back and forth along its own set of rails. By popping out the small axlesand replacing them with set of piano wires that would go through a couple of slots, and connect to the traveler.

I show a mechanism on my website that moves the crane on rails. Rather than remove the pin axles, I reach up thru a slot with a forked sliding arm.

I've been using it successfully for about 3 years.

[jkerklo]

Soleniod switches, like the 1122 and O22, have a mechanical latch that holds the frog in position once the switching action is complete. Try and move the frog on any of these. If it moves, the latch needs to be adjusted.

The O22 has a set of electrical contacts that turn off the soleniod when the frog is positioned; otherwise, the non-derailing feature would activate the soleniod when a train was on the switch.

Part of the difference is that soleniod switches are fast. Tortoise machines are slow. Fast is better for toy trains and non-derailing features. Tortoise machines require operational planning.

I might suggest a "routing" electrical mechanism if you decide on tortoise machines.


John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Big_Boy_4005]

Gee Dave that's not such a bad idea about doing an article. I've always wanted to earn my Master Model Railroader title in the NMRA, and something like that would be a start on the author catagory. The layout that I'm working on would probably fill almost all of the other requirements. I don't think that anyone has ever done this with 3 rail O as their primary scale.

Back in 1999 when the NMRA national convention was in St Paul, I sat in on a clinic about the master program, afterward I asked if doing handlayed track in 3 rail counted, and the guy looked at me kind of funny and said "I guess so." The question about the track requirement was specific, because there are electrical issues associated with the requirement, that take on a very strange meaning with 3 rail.[%-)][:o)][swg]

[FJ and G]

Nice! would make for a nifty CTT one-pager.

I built a traveling crane last year. It's an overhead crane like you'd find in a steel mill to move heavy beams. Using a Plymouth HO diesel, I tore off the chassis and replaced it with a sheet metal frame. I then had it run overhead on HO tracks, powered by an HO transformer. When it got to the end of the track at either end, it would come into contact with a spring that connected to other HO packs that would turn a motor to let down the pulley.

It is kinda crudely built but it works and was fun to make. It doesn't really look good enough for my layout, however.

I'll make no secret that I'm not at all smart about electronics...just yet; but once my layout is completed, I'll be devoting months to projects like yours and scratchbuilding things.

I'm pleased to see that there are some really creative folks on this forum who enjoy these things. Enough cool stuff was discussed today to fill an entire magazine.


dav

[Big_Boy_4005]

It is all automatic Dave, the micro switches cut the power to the motor when the traveler runs into them. The concept was borrowed from a commercial machine that was on the market, but modified into the monster in the photo. The contacts can be used for power routing on the longer turnouts or as a position indicator. It is actually possible to stack the micro switches if you needed extra contacts, or drive a relay. Lots of options.

This device could even be modified and lengthened to create motion for a home made animation. I was actually thinking of using something like this to move a 282 crane back and forth along its own set of rails. By popping out the small axlesand replacing them with set of piano wires that would go through a couple of slots, and connect to the traveler.

[FJ and G]

Elliot,

Nice work. Does the "limit" device you mention cut power or do you eyeball when the point rails make contact?

[FJ and G]

jerry,

I'm not familiar w/the 1122 but I believe that any of the devices we have been discussing can be made to work with your switch.

As a matter of fact, I once did an experiment by ripping out a selonoid switch to an HO turnout and used it to power an 027 switch. I have a K-line 042 manual switch that is a bit more difficult to convert but that could be done as well.

Ofttime, you will need to open the switch box and see how the mechanism works and perhaps make a special cable for it to connect with whatever remote device you will be using.