Can Your Layout be Deemed a Fire Hazard?

[Anonymous]

Big_Boy...Sorry for the mixup (brain cramp) :)

D. Vergun...You mentioned that your benchwork spans a window to
the outside of the building and you think this will not be a problem?
I DO know that you WILL be gigged on this one! ANY obstruction of
an egress is FORBIDDEN and will be seen/listed as a VIOLATION!
Even if you do it after-the-fact you WILL be held liable both by the
authorities and by the insurance company in the event that something
happens and that egress needs to be used.

The results can be fines, retro-repairs, and with-holding of insurance
payouts for losses. Not to mention direct responsibility for any loss of
life or injury. Worst-case scenario is the Fire Marshal/Inspector will
issue a 'denial-of-occupany' order until violations are corrected and
reinspected. Even if you are already occupying the structure.

The reasoning behind this is...not only will that window/door/opening
be used by you, but it possibly might have to be used by persons who
are visiting and unfamiliar with the structure. Also factor in adverse
conditions such as loss of lighting, smoke, heat, etc. and even those
who ARE familiar will become disoriented. The additional reason is
that even if the opening is not used immediately for egress the opening
WILL be used for ENTRY and RESCUE of possible persons. Factor in
the size of a fully dressed and equipped firefighter (approx twice the size
and bulk of an ordinary person in street-clothes) and the fact that we may
have to also be carrying another person through this opening and the
requirement makes sense. As a matter of fact window openings are
standardized by the building industry to certain minimun specs for egress
and ingress just for these reasons. Your inspectors can/will explain this
to you. Hopefully none of this will ever happen to you or your guests, but
if it does, then THAT is why the codes are written as they are

I don't mean to sound harsh. It's just that I have had to breach illegally
obstructed openings in my career and have seen and handled the results.
Namely removing what once was a live human being who could not get
out of an area involved in smoke, gasses and fire. All I want to stress in
this post is that we MUST be safe in what we do in our hobby.

Again, if time permits, I would advise having a "pre-inspection" conference
with the local Fire officials and see what they recommend. They can/will be
most helpful. After all, they, too, just have your safety at stake.

Take care, good luck on your inspection.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Brian, that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger. I have been lucky never to have experienced a fire. It sounds that you are mostly recovered from that terrible experience.

Remember that laughter in the face of adversity is HYSTERIA.

I experienced it many years ago over a car. It was a RED car and I will never have another, because that thing was a TARGET. Three accidents in a span of less than six months, none my fault, each one worse than the previous. The third one totaled the car. In all three cases I was not injured, but immeadiately following the third and final, I couldn't stop laughing. That's hysteria!!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dave, the secret is, if you think that you are going to need to do something that the inspector won't approve, even if you don't see it as a big deal, WAIT. Bedroom windows are the KEY when it comes to egress.

No other windows are considered for egress, think about where most people die in home fires and when they happen. Often when people are sleeping, this is why smoke detectors are required in all sleeping areas in new construction, and why they are now requiring hard wire and tied together, ie NO BATTERIES.

I'm not telling you to violate the building codes, just keep in mind that once the inspector is gone, the home is your's. Also the inspector will generally confine his inspection to the area under permit, and not go poking around your entire home. Relax, be polite ask questions or even advice. Showing respect for goes a long way toward smooth and easy inspections.

[brianel027]

For me, the answer is no (I hope). I've used large enough wire and all of it accessible, use circuit breakers, use low voltage lights, etc., and have more than enough power from multiple transformers as to not exceed their capacities. Had all used transformers checked and serviced. Cords replaced, etc. Heat sinks and resistors are appropriately mounted with air space. Auxiliary transformers have cooling fans. Styrofoam used is all treated and away from heat sources. I've mounted a smoke detector near the layout room also.

I went through a fire in 1989. In 5 short hours, my life's work - 15 years worth of paintings, photographs (everything that hadn't sold in an exhibit), negatives, songs, demo tapes, cameras, guitars... gone. Also all my family archives - 3 generations of family pictures, movies, all my childhood Lionel's (I won't tell you what was lost there!) was gone and gone forever.

Worse of all the fire was arson, set to another building but also took the building where I had my studio and ran an art gallery. Oh, no insurance either.

And privately, firemen admitted they responded late, under-equipped, and ill-prepared because they were in a very heated labor dispute with the city. I also found out from my lawyer I couldn't sue the city for this, even if they were negligent.

I mean anything is possible.... I'm not daring fate, BUT having been to hell once already, I really prefer not going there again if I can at all help it. Postcard selection there was poor too... could be why travel agents don't do much business booking trips to that location. [:D]

Alas, my sense of humor. It would suffice to say I've had sort of a painful, ill-fated life. My friends used to call me VanGogh junior. My humor keeps me going though it all, and my trains are one small piece of sanity in an otherwise insane world.

[FJ and G]

Any time you finish your basement in Prince William County, VA, a permit is required by law.

Actually, I needed 4 separate permits: electrical; plumbing; framing; and HVAC. Total cost of all of these permits was nearly $400. There are 2 inspections. The first is for the framing, plumbing rough in, HVAC, and wiring, and the 2nd inspection is when everything is finished, tho I feel personally, that the 2nd inspection is more cosmetic and shouldn't really be required as the first inspection really catches any fire/safety violations.

Inspectors will tell you that the reason for inspections is protection of you and the occupants. Most inspectors are highly professional and take their jobs seriously. The fire codes they know by heart and grade you accordingly. However, as in any profession, there are dimwits; but as a whole, inspectors are courteous, thorough, and take their jobs seriously.

[Big_Boy_4005]

The answer to the question of why the inspection on an existing home is, in some areas permits are required when the dollar value of an improvement exceedes a certain amount. Electrical permits are required when adding any breakers to a panel.

How do I know all this you ask??? Experience, I have built and wired my own home, done countless remodels and additions, and built the train display at the Mall of America. I have spent the last 15 years dealing with inspectors (off and on) and learning building and electrical codes.[swg]

[FJ and G]

I'm still reading your replies, but I can add 2 more points:

1. The most critical thing that county inspectors look for is fire prevention. For instance, my studs have fire blocking.

2. Something I failed to mention is that the layout spans a window to the outside of the building in the hallway. That window, in and of itself is, IMO, not as important as the window in the bedroom, which by code, has to be there. However, the bedroom window is not spanded (not yet anyway) by the layout. After the inspection, it will be, but I egress will still be easy enough.

I'm still reading these replies but got busy at work. I'll keep reading. Thx.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey ChesBchRy, please don't confuse me with Dave, I was asleep when he posted this one.[swg]

But now that I'm awake, I have all kinds of things to add to this discussion.

First of all building codes are developed to protect us all from hazards, some of which we aren't aware even exist. When I built the layout ay the mall 12 years ago the inspections were very rigorous, because this was in a public place. Here's a list of the special things that had to be done. No flamable materials could be used in construction, which meant.

• Metal benchwork
• FRT lumber (Fire Retardant Treated)
• Sprinkler sysyem UNDER the layout
• Full disclosure and inspection of low voltage electrical system
• No falmable materials used as scenery
• And of course full compliance with all normal standard codes such as egress, lighting, signage, and ADA

This is the ultimate extreme, and basicly resulted in at least tripling the cost in benchwork construction.

Back to home layouts. Because this is your home, building inspectors only come when invited. You invite them when you do structural and electrical work on your home. If you don't take out a permit, WHICH YOU SHOULD WHEN REQUIRED, it can effect your ability to sell your home years later, and could be a lot more expensive to correct mistakes.

View the inspector as your friend, he is there to protect you, and keep you from doing things that are known to be dangerous. He will help keep you from making mistakes, and keep you, your family, and the future owners safe!!!

NOBODY WANTS A FIRE, and the best way to start one is with faulty wiring! MAKE SURE THAT YOUR WIRES ARE LARGE ENOUGH!!!! If you don't know the proper size wire to be safe, ASK!!! We have discussed this topic at length in the past, and I will find the link and post it here.

FOAM, as Leonard mentioned earlier, is a source of toxic gases when burned. I'm guessing here, but as long as it is not attached to the structure of your home, it should be legal from the inspector's point of view. Your sofa will give off equally noxious fumes when burned, so

DON'T HAVE A FIRE!

The bottom line here is DON'T FEAR THE INSPECTOR, he will not conedemn your home because of your layout, but if he sees it, he may make recommendations that you should consider following for your own safety.

Have fun, and BE SAFE!!!!

[Anonymous]

'cnw1995' is expressing the same interest that I have in why all the official
inspections? If you are finishing off your basement, or building a train layout
that should not come under the heading of "new construction" such as an
addition to the house.

Even if you didn't/don't need an inspection, the pointers that I listed in the
previous post is good advice for anyone who is contemplating building a big
new layout. Safety First! Just like the REAL railroads!

[Anonymous]

David
I don't know what type of foam(chemical make-up) you have, but for many years now extruded,treated foam used in home construction, bedding, auto headliners,seats,etc, has, by law, included fire retardants mixed in at the time it was poured(manufactured). This includes the extruded polystyrene foam at Lowe's/Depot(noted in post above ).

I have been away from the process for many years now, however as I recall the main concern in the late '80s was not ignition or fire spread but the fumes given off by melting foam in a free-burning scenario..

[cnw1995]

This made me curious enough to research some of our local building codes on this. It appears at least in our county (McHenry) that a private home train layout is considered to be a temporary structure that is separate from the home and does not add value to it in an assessment sort of way. The city people said they consider it like building a table or furniture. Making benchwork appears to be exempt from inspection - even if it is physically connected to the house studs. The only thing they warned about was about electrical - don't overload, etc.

[Anonymous]

D. Vergun;

Hopefully I can help you a little. After retiring from the Fire Service with 36
years of experience, here's some pointers.
1.) "A clean house never burns." What that means is before the inspectors
visit make sure that ALL debris, dust, paper, etc. is cleaned up and GONE
from the inspection area.
2.) Save the documentation (if any) regarding the flammability of your layout
materials. (UL labels, stickers, ANSI or ASME specs, also National Bureau
of Standards flammability specs. (all available on the Internet))
3.) Install fire extinguishers in obvious accessible areas in your layout area.
4.) Install working smoke and CO detectors in your layout area.
5.) Make sure EXITS are marked and unblocked.
6.) (This is the tough one for train guys) Make sure that aisles are adequately
wide enough for easy evacuation. (The usual rule of thumb is 3 feet)
7.) Make sure the area is well lit.
8.) Pay particular attention to your electrical work! Make sure ALL electrical
work is done to the National Electrical Code! Cover ALL splices, joints, etc.
Be sure that your layout circuits are seperate from other circuits in the home
to prevent overloading and tripping of breakers.
9.) Store any/all combustible solvents, glues, paints, etc. in a seperate non-
flammable container (such as a metal locker). Get rid of old paint rags, glue
tubes, etc.
10.) Be sure that ALL electrical equipment for your layout is UL or ANSI approv-
ed. Save documentation or stickers, etc.
11.) Have an emergency 110V master shut-down switch for the layout that is
easily visible and accessible. Either a conventional double pole switch in an
approved electrical junction box or a commercial "power strip" breakered and
rated for the layout's entire load should be fine.

Lastly, I'm kind of curious...Why would the Fire Marshal have to inspect the
layout anyway? Is this a new home under construction? Is this a place rated
for public gatherings? I'm not familiar with the particulars of Prince William's
fire codes, although I began my professional career there back in the early
1970's. I know things change.

Another thing you maybe should have done, using 20/20 hindsight, is have
what is know as a "pre-constructiuon conference" with the Fire Marshal to
explain in detail the purpose and operation of your project and get advice on
how to meet the applicable standards of your area. These folks are not hard-
hearted and will do everything they can to legally assist the builder (you) in
making things safer.

A good idea would be to go to your local library and research the National
Electrical Code and the NFPA Life Safety Code to see what applies to your
circumstances.

This topic should be of top-shelf interest to ALL model railroaders. We want
all who visit us to be safe, we want our layouts and collections to be safe and
not lose all the sweat-equity, time and expense we have tied up in it, and we
don't want (God forbid) a problem with insurance adjusters or authorities in
the sad event that a fire does occur.

Keep us posted on the progress of this.

[cnw1995]

That's terrible. I saw stryofoam boards at our local Home Depot but I bought 1 inch thick 4 x 8 slabs of pink foam-board instead. It has a fire-resistent tab on it.

[FJ and G]

I had never really thought about this until yesterday. Let me back up a second and explain. On Saturday, I put up most of my benchwork (I'll do a separate post explaining how it went in agonizing detail). Also on Saturday, I completed the last work on finishing the basement (started 1.5 years ago on the 1,500 sq ft basement).

On Sunday, I loaded the table with industrial blocks of styroam (2X12 foot solid chunks) 4 feet high X 25 feet worth.

Now that the basement is finished, it has to undergo final inspection from Prince William County inspectors.

On Sunday, my next door neighbor stopped by. He has accompanied inspectors in the past and has always given me useful tips, which enabled me to pass my first inspection for plumbing, HVAC, wiring, framing, etc.

Anyway, to make this long story short, he took one look at the styrofoam and said it likely would be declared a fire hazard. I was kinda shocked.

I had planned to glue down the styrofoam but stopped all work until the inspection, which I will schedule for early next month. In the meantime, I'll be taking the foam down and hiding it in my garage. Further progress on the layout will be after the inspection.

Has anyone had any similar experience to this, or can you comment?

Thx.

David Vergun