Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

[Northwoods Flyer]

Stourbridge Lion and MomsFlyer,

First let me say to the thread.

MomsFlyer,

Thanks for posting excellent photos of your mom's train.  You did a great job for a first post.

What you have is a complete cataloged set from 1939 in amazing condition.  Its known as the Double Header set or The Mountain Red Ball

It appeared only in the 1939 catalog;  and it appeared on the cover. The cars are doubled up, but its the train at the top of the cover

 

 

And it continues on to the back cover.

 

The set appears on page 18 of the catalog.  Its official title is No. 310 Double Header Freight.

 

 

And here is the catalog description.

 

The two engines belong together.  The catalog number for the two engines is 437, which is made up of a 420 powered engine

 

 

and a 401 dummy engine.

 

 

If you line them up as powered engine-- tender with the sheet metal knuckle coupler (known as a curley cue coupler) -- dummy engine (which has the same culy cue coupler on its front)  -- and then the tender with the die cast link and pin coupler like the coupler on the rest of the cars you will be able to run them all together.

 

 

This is the only year in the prewar era that American Flyer had a double headed set.  There are posts on pages 15 and 33 about the Double Header set.

 

You are very fortunate to have a wonderful piece of your family's history.  Since your mom was born in 1937 it looks like your grandparents got her the train for the Christmas when she was two.  I can just imagine that it will bring you and your family the same delight as it travels under the tree as it did to her that first Christmas.  Do you know any other stories about it? 

 

Thanks for posting.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Stourbridge Lion]

Cool!!!!!!!

[MomsFlyer]

I recently came into possession of my Mom's American Flyer trains that I believe were bought for her around the time she was born -- 1937.  They were kept in the attic for at least the last 40 years, but for the first time in decades, they're out, and under the Christmas Tree.  I don't know much about them, but have learned a lot by gleaning through this thread.  I will attempt to post some pictures, but apologize in advance as this is my first post.

 

From the boxes I have, it appears I have a 420 engine, 421 tender, 408 boxcar, 410 oil car, and 411 caboose.   There are 2 additional boxes without the flaps, but I believe those go with the additional engine and tender.

 

The 420 engine actually runs.

 

Any info or thoughts would be appreciated.

[Otis B. Drinkwater]

Streamliners

I know that not much has been posted about streamliners in this thread, so I want to start posting some photos of streamliners, which were one of my first passions in collecting American Flyer O gauge.

I will start off with the 1936 Union Pacific City of Denver streamliner, simply because I have already photographed mine. 

This set was first cataloged in 1936, with a whistle car, which is the set shown here.  In 1937 the whistle car was removed, due to a lawsuit from Lionel over patent infringement.  I believe an extra car was added to replace the whistle car.  In 1938 and 1939 the yellow paint becomes a much lighter color.  It should be noted that there are variations of the late light yellow cars that have 6 wheel trucks and no belly pans.  These cars were sold with a steam engine, as opposed to being part of the City of Denver set.

 

 

[Otis B. Drinkwater]

I researched the Edmonds-Metzel company a bit more, but I have to say that the information prior to 1907 is very scarce. The best source I found was the "Michigan Alumnus, Vol 5, May 1899" It contains the following: " Jay D. Edmonds - (18)96 after graduating spent 2 years as Chief Draftsman at Chicago Screw Co. then was a Mechanical Engineer at Fischer Equipment Co., Chicago until last fall (1898), when he joined with William E. Metzel to form Edmonds-Metzel Mfg. Co. at 253 S. Canal Street, Chicago. Makers of "Perpetual Bicycle Pedal"

 

Researching the bicycle pedal I found the following on www.speedplay.com

" 1899 Edmonds and Metzel invent the cylinder bicycle pedal (Aerolite Type)"

 

I found a small blurb in a Chicago City Directory - Edmonds-Metzel Mfg, 778-784 W. Lake Street - Die Paper Cutters, no date found

 

I also found advertisements in 1905 era Popular Mechanics for their wrenches that listed an address of 163-173 Jefferson Street.

 

So they were certainly moving around a bit in the early years. 

I know that William Ogden Coleman is reported to have gained control of the company in the 1906-1907 timeframe and the address associated with Edmonds-Metzel and American Flyer Trains is 1088 Wilcox Avenue.

O.

[Otis B. Drinkwater]

A bit more on Edmonds-Metzel, the company that became American Flyer in 1910. 

 

 I am not sure when the company was founded; however, I have found patent information for various items that date to the 1903-1906 era.  The earliest patent information I found relates to a bank.  The patent application was filed November 22, 1901 and was approved January 13, 1903.  The bank was designed by a John Zimmer of Chicago and the patent was assigned to Edmonds-Metzel Manufacturing Company. 

The bank is a relatively crude item that appears to be made of steel pipestock that was cut with a bottom inserted and a removable top.  The item then appears to have been copper plated with a blackening agent applied and only minor copper dots being polished through the agent.  I know that the item was plated as a magnet sticks to the bank and the inside is not plated and a bit rusty on my bank.

 

 

My bank has a small aluminum plate that reads "Every little bit added to what youve got makes a little bit more"  My understanding is that this plate does not appear on all banks.

 

The name is stamped on the bottom of the item

 

It is my understanding that these banks were made for various banking institutions as promotional giveaways.  I only have a single bank, but a friend has multiple banks that are labeled for different actual banking institutions.  It was also reported that my bank is the large size and that there is a version that is approximately half as tall as the version I have.

It was also reported that the banks are always stamped on the bottom with the maker's mark.

[Otis B. Drinkwater]

Northwoods,

 

I agree with you in that

"While it may not seem like it, I decided to put some limits on my collection. I would have run out of space much sooner if I had collected 4 wheel versions of the rolling stock as well. "

I began to get interested in Wide Gauge a couple of years ago, but quickly put a halt to that interest.  I realized that there was a lot of O gauge that I still wanted and I could not afford to buy Wide Gauge and still persue the O gauge.  So I have 5 or 6 Wide Gauge sets and a huge amount of O gauge.  One of my Standard Gauge sets is this odd 4000 set, which is reported to be an early Trail Blazer set from approximately 1927.  I found it interesting due to all of the items having 4000 plates on them.

This set was my last Wide Gauge purchase, and although I am searching for 2 additional Wide Gauge sets, I am in no rush to get them, as I have set my limits.

O.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Christmas Wish List   1938

The American Flyer Catalog for 1938 looked much different than the catalogs from previous years.  Gone were the bright colors and reproductions of train artwork on the covers.  This new catalog was done in only two colors - black and yellow.

 

 

Back

 

 

The cover had the name "Gilbert" on it.  American Flyer had been purchased by the company that made Erector sets and moved to New Haven Connecticut.  Well that couldn't be a bad thing.

 

The inside of the catalog was very different too.  There were all kinds of new items, and the trains looked a lot different.  There were a lot of trains called HO.  If you looked you could  find some familiar items from when American Flyer was made in Chicago.

 

If you were looking for something to go with the equipment you had from previous years you might really like page 12.

 

 

The No. 1 Passenger Train with remote control looked fantiastic. The description was hard to resist....and look at that price.

 

 

 

If you got your letter written and mailed to Santa early, this is what you might find circling your tree on Christmas morning.

 

 

Look at those four gorgeous enameled red passenger cars.  The steamer looks pretty powerful and up to the task of pulling all those cars to deliver the passengers to their destinations in time for Christmas dinner.

 

 

It was going to be hard to wait until sundown on Christmas day to see the illuminated cars speeding around the track.

 

 

It looks like its time to start hinting for some more track and some switches for your birthday so that you can expand your railroad empire.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Otis,

Thanks for posting the photos of the 4 wheel cars.  Many of Flyer's smaller cars came in both 4 and 8 wheel versions.  I made a conscious decision some time ago not to collect the 4 wheel cars.  While it may not seem like it, I decided to put some limits on my collection.   I would have run out of space much sooner if I had collected 4 wheel versions of the rolling stock as well.  The photos that you have been posting of the 1107 and 1108 cars have made me reconsider that decision.  I also think that the 8 wheel cars are more realistic looking.  Realistic is a very relative term here.  We are afterall talking about toys that were never meant to be scale representations of real cars.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Otis B. Drinkwater]

Kaycee,

Thanks from everyone who posts here, for the compliment on the photos. 

 As far as reference material goes, I have found that in addition to the greenberg's reference guides and Flyer catalogs, that often the best source of information is other collectors.   I have answered want ads in the TCA newsletter, not because I had something for sale, but I wanted to find out what information the person looking for particular items already had.  That aspect has created friendships and helped me gain and share knowlege with others.

 I have found that collector organizations such as the TCA and the defunct American Flyer Collector's Club had great articles in their publications as well. 

With Flyer prewar there seems to be endless variations out there and I am still learning about them myself.  Therefore, the sharing of information is important.

O.

[kaycee]

Thank you gents for posting such super pictures and information.

All this is helping me 'big time' with getting my collecting straightened out. (As sure as many other folks too.)

I like to put my trains into the correct sets, what you all have been sharing here is priceless. All my reference material together does not have the details you folks have been discussing or the quality photographs.

 

 

 

[Otis B. Drinkwater]

Here are pictures of the 4-wheel 6.5 inch enamel cars.  My set has two coaches and an observation.  I know that a 4-wheel baggage was made, but it was not part of the set I have.   I have seen these cars as both lighted and unlighted with 4-wheel frames.  My cars are numbered 1211 and 1212 and according to greenberg's would date to post 1933.

 

 

 

 

[Otis B. Drinkwater]

Northwoods,

Not sure if you mentioned it, but some of these early 6.5 inch enamel cars came on 4-wheel frames.  I have a set that dates to around 1933/34 that has red enamel 6.5 inch cars on 4-wheel frames. 

Not sure if they made the cars in green on 4-wheel frames or not. 

O.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Otis,

Great post on the steamers. It certainly shows the direction that Flyer was taking before WWII.  They look very powerful and watching them pull a consist of streamlined cars gives you a sense of the fascination that the country had with speed.

Thanks.

6.5 inch enameled passenger cars

This is the third post on these late enamled cars.  Installment #3 looks at the observation cars.

 

The observation cars follow the same changes as we observed in the passenger cars.

 

This is #1217 variation (D).  Type VIII trucks

 

 

#1217 Variation (C) Type XII trucks

 

 

When the changes occured in 1939 the Observation received the number 236.  This is Variation (E) - 236R. Type XII trucks, Type X coupler

 

 

Variation (F)  236B

 

 

Comparison of couplers

 

 

Once again the number of the car does not appear on the body of the car. Only the green variation has the #1217 rubberstamped on the bottom.

 

 

Placement of decals

 

 

Here are the observation decks.  Notice that the decorative valance is white on the green variation and red to match the body of the car on the other two versions.  The valance on the blue 236B also matches the blue color of the body of the car.

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Otis B. Drinkwater]

As for the last year that Flyer made O gauge?  I believe that issue is clouded by WWII.  Flyer is reported to have sold O gauge in 1946, with those items likely assembled from parts made prior to the onset of the war, but who knows.  I believe that some of the early S guage was 3/16th and used the same bodies from the prewar 3/16 O gauge, but with different motors.  I could see some of the parts from the early postwar O gauge items being from parts made both before and after the war, in order to use up some of the prewar parts that may have already been made. 

I guess the last defined years of O gauge would be 1941/1942, with the last items being assembled before the onset of WWII and the order to change production over for the war effort.

 

 

[wallyworld]

Otis,

The polished details of the reciprocating gear on the 435 really makes this an engine I would covet, the "something" that makes Flyer steam stand out. What was the last year that Flyer made ( not sold) O Gauge?

[Otis B. Drinkwater]

Enough of the early stuff, now for some late steam.  Although the following engines are from the Gilbert era, they were sold with Chicago era cars, so I like them.  I have to say that I have persued the nicest of these engines that I can find. 

 

Some issues for fellow collectors to be aware of, the marker light brackets at the front of the engines break easily and in my opinion affects the value if they are missing.  Also, the steps on the late tenders break easily and again, in my opinion, affect the value.  Although the ladder tops on the tender also go missing, these do not affect the value as much if all of the steps are present on the tender.

 

So to begin, I offer up a 43224 of 1938.  This engine and tender are correct for the set that includes 3 green streamline cars.  I have been told by a long-term TCA member that Gilbert was using up leftover Chicago inventory for this set and that the tender and cars should come in Chicago era boxes, which they did.

Next up is the 43226 engine of 1938.  This engine/tender came to me with 4 blue streamline cars.

In 1939 these engines were re-numbered with a 3 digit numbering system.  Additionally, the engines were generally changed to being all black, with there being no white stripe or red windows.  However, I have seen some engines that have odd features with the 3 digit numbers.  The following 435 engine has a white stripe with black window frames and is 100% original.  I have also seen but not examined closely, these late engines that had red windows.

Next up is the more common variation of the 435.  This engine/tender came to me with 3 red streamline cars and likely dates to 1940.

Note that the American Flyer Lines lettering on this tender is of a smaller size than the previous tender.  I am not sure of the reasons for this difference, whether it was due to passenger versus freight tenders or if it changed due to differing years of production. 

Lastly, the 432, which again has the tender with larger lettering and a freight coupler.

Anyway, hope everyone enjoys these photos.

[Otis B. Drinkwater]

 

 

As I said, a month ago I would have pointed to my 4 window Chicago car as the oldest in my collection.  However, I now point to this car as the oldest in my collection.

This 3 Window Unpunched Chicago car represents the 1st American Flyer production from 1907.  I suppose that really this pre-dates American Flyer as it's production in 1907 was by a company named Edmonds-Metzel, which in 1908 would start calling their trains American Flyer and in 1910 would change the company name to American Flyer Manufacturing Company.   Since all the experts point to this as being American Flyer, I will agree with them.

 

 

I will say that I never expected to own one of these unpunched 3 window cars and it is in great condition for being 104 years old.

[wallyworld]

Otis

That 1090 Engine is so representative of the 1920 era in it's aesthetics. I collect art from that period as well and the color combinations of those with the 1090 say as much about the 20's as does art deco from the 30's. One fellow whose works appeal to me is named Willard Elmes who did a lot of commercial work for the Insull Lines.

I have somewhere a B&O "tour guide" from that era that just oozes that 20's stylistic sensibility. If I find it, Ill post it though it is a bit OT. The oranges and greens were for some reason, a real focus. This is one poster I found for the collection.

Another way to put is the emphasis on primary colors as opposed to the last few decades of pastels and even more subtle shades..I think thats why the 1090 and it's family are so appealing but it is seldom remarked on.Like, who would think to put orange as the central focus as in this poster?

[Northwoods Flyer]

6.5 inch enameled passenger cars

These late enameled cars appeared in the catalog in 1933-1935 and again in 1938-1939.  There were three body types produced.  A posting on the baggage cars appears back on page 48.

These are the passenger cars.

I have three versions in my collection.

 

 

This is the 1213 variation (D)

 

 

This is 1213 variation (C)

 

 

This is the #235R Pullman - variation (E) - which is the version that appeared in 1939 when Gilbert had taken over the company and changed the numbering system. It also has the curly que coupler.

 

 

Variation (F) is not a part of my collection, but illustrates another color variation that Gilbert produced. This is #235B.

 

 

The cars vary in the type of truck, coupler, lighting, and also in the placement of decals. Observe the variety of decals used on the cars. The very last versions in 1939 235R and 235B have the recessed areas for the door decals, but no decals, and they have a punched window.

 

 

Types of Couplers

 

 

Lighting methods.  The later 1939 cars - 235R and 235B - are not lighted.  Notice too that only the green version is rubberstamped with a number.

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Otis B. Drinkwater]

What is your oldest Train?

Early American Flyer

I saw a recent posting on the Yahoo Groups TCA site and thought the post was interesting it was "What is your oldest Train?"

If asked a month ago, I would have pointed at this set

 

c. 1910 set box, which shows the cover art from the 1910 catalog on the box top.  The cardboard has a greenish tint.  Sets from later years, up to 1914, which used similar boxes do not have the greenish tint to the cardboard

Set Number 9 c. 1910.  Set 9 is only shown in the 1910 American Flyer catalog.  The catalog shows the set having a single 4 window car, engine, and tender with an unusual triangular shaped set of track, which was comprised of 6 curves and 3 straights.  Early track used 3 curved sections to make a complete curve or 6 to make a circle, unlike later track, which required 8 sections to make a circle.

c. 1910 era Flyer engine with early casting and pre clip-in motor

c. 1910 328 tender with green lithograph.

c. 1910 4 window Chicago car in white with red details.

As I said, if asked a month ago, I would have pointed to this as being my oldest train, as it is 101 years old.

However, now ..........?

[AF53]

Nice pics Otis and Strainst! Here are some 1116 sand cars!

 

Ca. 1919 - 1928.

 

Ca. 1932 - 1935.

Ray

 

 

[Otis B. Drinkwater]

Empire Express Strikes Back!

My guess is that the above item dates to 1928, based on the two pantographs on the roof.  I believe it to be a very limited production item that was produced for JC Penneys, prior to their settling on the Nation Wide Lines brand line.  I base this on its apparent very limited production and the presence of the Standard Guage Empire Express set, which was produced for JC Penney and sold under the Nation Wide LInes brand, per TCA E-train article. 

The Empire Express branding of Flyer trains appears to have happened in the 1928 era, as evidenced by the following set labels, which are both pasted over Flyer set labels.

The above set box contains a wind-up freight set with 5.5 inch freight cars.

The above set box contains a special variation of the Little American set, in that instead of coming with 1120 passenger and observation cars, it came with aFlyer 1096 engine and  two matching red 1107 passenger cars.  Oddly, I have also seen the above set with slightly different set components, so it could be that this special set could have been packaged with mismatched components at the factory, as they were trying to use old inventory?

I have heard of the above label being used on other Flyer sets, including a Blue Bird set from this era.

Lastly, the following Empire Express engine dates to around 1931 and is much more common than the 1196 engine shown previously. 

[Otis B. Drinkwater]

Shifting gears to some smaller freight cars. 

The above car dates to approximately 1910, as evidenced by the type II couplers and 3 step frame.  This car appears to have originally been all red with a gold or yellow stripe along the top edge of the car.  Unfortunately, the paint is not in great condition.  The frame of the car is also punched for attaching the 1910 era crane.

This car, although similar to the first car shown, is a 1912 era car, as evidenced by the type III butterfly coupler and the black 2 step frame. 

This tank car is c. 1914 as it has the same frame as the early 1107/1108 cars.  The tank is a 2-piece wooden tank, with the main body comprising a single piece and the dome comprising a dowel inserted into the main body.  The main body of the tank is held to the frame via 2 nails with the 2 red bands being more decorative than functional.   The frame is punched with 6 circular holes, with 4 of the holes (2 on each side) being for the red bands and the other two holes (centered between holes for red bands) being for the nails that attach the body of the tank.  Oddly, I have acquired one of these punched frames that was used on an 1108 baggage car from around 1915.

This is an 1109 gondola from c. 1915 or 1916.  The body features a brown litho with rivet detail and 1109 on the sides.  There is also a green variation of this car.

This car dates to approximately 1917-1918.

Two Illinois Central cars from around 1916 or 1917.  Note that one car has doors and one car does not.  American Flyer sold cars with and without doors in the early days.  I believe the addition/deletion of doors was either a $0.05 or $0.10 difference in price.

[strainst]

Here are a couple of additional 1107 cars with road names.

  

 

 

Here are a couple of 1107 passenger cars with matching 1108 baggage cars.

 

 

Strainst

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

I wanted to take an opportunity to thank all of the folks who have been posting lately.  Its great to have so many of you sharing photos of the very unique items in your collections.  I look forward to checking in on the forum and seeing the unusual items that folks have been posting, and to see who is newly posting to the thread, and how many of our regular posters have found new items to post.

That is what this thread was intended to be at its beginning.

Thanks again folks for your time and effort, and keep those photos coming.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

strainst,

Its nice to see you here again.  Its been a while.  I agree with the information that Otis has posted, including that the Stout auction seems to have put a car and box together that don't belong together.  Its always fun to come across a variation that hasn't appeared in a book yet.  Congratulations!  I have the same variation in my collection.  I had to go back to the postings about log/machine cars on page 24 just to see if there had been any photos posted of a 3216 variation like yours, and there haven't been. 

Here is my 3216:

 

 

 

I'm missing one of the wire tie downs for my car.  I notice that you are missing the tie downs and several journal boxes.  These are fairly easy to come by and if you watch eBay there are reproductions available.

So now we know that there are at least two examples of this car; both of ours with the two brake wheels, and Otis's example with just one brake wheel.  As I have said before, variations are the spice of life.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

Otis B. Drinkwater

I just want to say that it was nice to visit with Northwoods Flyer at Trainfest in Milwaukee this morning. 

 

Otis

Otis,

It was great getting together with you at Trainfest.  Its amazing how quickly time flies when you get two Flyer guys together and they start talking trains and swaping stories.  I'll bet we spent several hours together in total, and we could have probably spent even more time.  The only disappointment was that you didn't wear your American Flyer hat!  

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Otis B. Drinkwater]

I think photos of similar cars have been posted previously, but I wanted to post them anyway.  These photos represent American Flyer's top-of-the-line freight cars for the period 1925-1927.  I think that although Flyer's cars rival the Ives freight cars of the era, that Ives did a better job on their litho freight cars.  I do not have any of the Ives freight cars in my collection, but attaining their 9 inch litho freight cars is one of my goals.

Otis

[Otis B. Drinkwater]

Your car dates to around 1930-1931 and I am basing that on the style of trucks that are mounted on the car.  I have a similar car in my collection.  Your car is definitely an earlier car as it has two brake wheels on it and I know that the late cars only had one brake wheel.

My experience with flyer is that often times the catalog artwork showing the sets remained the same for a number of years, with the actual colors of cars possibly changing.  The log and machinery cars are one of the freight cars that had multiple color variations over the years.  Another freight car that comes to mind are the tank cars, which also had multiple color variations over the years.

It looks like the box that was sold with the car on the Stout auction was an incorrect box for the car as it appears to be labeled 3206 instead of 3216.