Nationwidelines Close, but that is the o gauge tender, the sheetmetal vanderbuilt tender I believe.
Close, but that is the o gauge tender, the sheetmetal vanderbuilt tender I believe.
I was inclined to think O gauge as well, but when I looked it up on google, the O gauge version was lacking the ladder on the rear, which is where I think this ladder is located.
Nice work folks.
Partial credit for:
1. tender
2. o-gauge
3. sheetmetal
4. semi vanderbilt style
It is a Type IX Tender from 1934, Catalog No. 3194
It has type VIII trucks with brass journal boxes.
And yes the brass ladder in question is on the back of the tender.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Trivia Question #17
Where will you find this and what is the number of the item you will find it on? Extra credit for the years it appeared in the catalog. Extra extra credit for posting a photo of it.
Northwoods Flyer Trivia Question #17 Where will you find this and what is the number of the item you will find it on? Extra credit for the years it appeared in the catalog. Extra extra credit for posting a photo of it. Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
Is it the front of one of the torpedo engines?
tinplatacis Northwoods Flyer Trivia Question #17 Where will you find this and what is the number of the item you will find it on? Extra credit for the years it appeared in the catalog. Extra extra credit for posting a photo of it. Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer Is it the front of one of the torpedo engines?
Which appeared in the 1938 Gilbert catalog but not in the 1939 (it had morphed into an NYC Hudson). Maybe in 1937 as well?
M636C
Good work so far, but there are still extra credit points on the table.
This was the next hint.
Flyer cataloged their torpedo locomotive from 1936 through 1938 with that nose. In 1939 Flyer used their new dryfuss nose on the engine.
Your engine appears to be gunmetal/grey in color, so it would have to be a 1937 or 1938 engine, as 1936 was the only year it was black.
In the 1938 catalog the locomotive was described as 4629 remote control locomotive and it appeared in the No 3 (passenger) and No 4 (freight) sets.
These are illustrated at:
http://myflyertrains.org/AF_Catalogs/D1259/AF_catalog_page13.htm
Nice work everyone. It is indeed a Streamlined steam engine.
Schuweiler identifies it as a Type XXI Pennsylvania Locomotive. The tender is Type XII.
The gunmetal grey engine with this die cast nose was cataloged in 1937 and 1938.
In 1937 the locomotive-tender combination is numbered 1686.
In 1938 the locomotive-tender combination is numbered 4629.
This is the catalog page from 1937.
This is the freight set from 1937 - #1716.
It has been in my family longer than I have. It formed the core of my O Gauge (Narrow Gauge) collection when I first started collecting American Flyer O.
Enjoying the World's Greates Hobby
Northwoods Flyer Nice work everyone. It is indeed a Streamlined steam engine. Schuweiler identifies it as a Type XXI Pennsylvania Locomotive. The tender is Type XII. The gunmetal grey engine with this die cast nose was cataloged in 1937 and 1938. In 1937 the locomotive-tender combination is numbered 1686. In 1938 the locomotive-tender combination is numbered 4629. This is the catalog page from 1937. This is the freight set from 1937 - #1716. It has been in my family longer than I have. It formed the core of my O Gauge (Narrow Gauge) collection when I first started collecting American Flyer O. Enjoying the World's Greates Hobby Northwoods Flyer
Pretty neat to see and hear that story Northwoods. We have a set like that too, but it's a postwar Lionel set.
As as a side note, I might be getting a 1218 electric. Depends on how badly the other guys want it lol.
Dave
It's a TOY, A child's PLAYTHING!!! (Woody from Toy Story)
Trivia Question #18
What is this and where will you find it?
Perhaps another clue will help you find the answer.
I should have made a guess, the cupola roof on an Ives 121 Caboose. I thought the color looked off, so I did not guess.
Nationwidelines I should have made a guess, the cupola roof on an Ives 121 Caboose. I thought the color looked off, so I did not guess.
Thats way off my thoughts, mine were more in line with a 11xx series boxcar.
Correct! It is the cupola roof for the #121 IVES Caboose
I suppose some of you out there might be calling "Foul!", but there is a back story to this piece. Let me quote Schuweiler from the Greenberg Guide to Prewar American Flyer:
"Ives used several American Flyer Wide Gauge freight car bodies in the late 1920s for some of their freight cars. They used only one O gauge body, from an American Flyer 3211 caboose, for their 121 caboose. Although marketed by Ives, it is included in this listing as a item of interest. In 1928 Ives was purchased at their bankruptcy sale by Lionel and American Flyer, both of which continued Ives under their control. In 1928 and 1929 some American Flyer equipment was marketed with Ives plates by the joint Lionel-American Flyer management. This is one of those pieces...."
This "Transition Era" has always fascinated me. I've wondered how the corporate decisions were made. This is the only piece of American Flyer-Ives equipment that I have. I'm always on the lookout for the Wide Gauge transition pieces, but I don't have any yet. There are far more examples of equipment that featured parts from Ives and Lionel. In fact much of the Ives Line equipment eventually was incorpoprated into what became the Lionel Jr. line. I have a number of examples of those pieces even though they aren't American Flyer influenced. I believe there are a few pieces that include parts from all three manufacturers.
Thought I would post more photos of early stuff
Not sure of the exact date of this, but I am guessing 1908 or 1909. The colors are great!
NWL
That does have great colors!
As an update, I did not win the 1218 I was bidding on. Or any of the cars I bid on after that. Still no American Flyer in my collection yet lol.
tinplatacis,
Too bad you missed the steeple cab. Be patient, there are many of that style engine out there. You will come across one that will fit into your budget. Good Luck.
NationWideLines,
What a beautiful car! You have to admire the detail and color of the lithography. Nice find. I look forward to seeing more.
Here is a bit more information on the #121 caboose posted in the last trivia question.
Ives marketed a line of 6" and 9" lithographed freight cars. To my knowledge they only had a 6" caboose of their own design that they used with both lengths of freight cars.
Its the #67
It looked fine with the 9" cars (which by the way I think are really beautiful).
When American Flyer and Lionel took over Ives there was finally a 9" caboose to go with the longer Ives freight cars.
Check out the difference in the look.
And as an interesting note. There was also a longer Lionel caboose that was decked out in Ives brass tags and used with the 9" Ives cars. I don't own one, but this is a photo of the #195 borrowed from Google Images.
I believe that you wish to reference the Ives 121 which uses the Lionel 817 body (about 9"). The Ives 195 uses the Lionel 217 body which is the largest standard gauge caboose that Lionel made.
If you Google Ives 121 caboose then click on images you will see the Flyer bodies version also. Those were crazy times at Flivesonel.
vintageflyer,,
Thanks for catching my error. I guess it just goes to show that you need to check your facts before you post information. Either that or just don't trust that a Flyer guy knows that much about Lionel. At least I got the Lionel part.
Here is the Ives #121 Caboose with the Lionel body. (Borrowed from Google images.)
For me the fun is learning more about these great old trains, and I certainly am learning much from the fine folks on this forum.
vintageflyer For me the fun is learning more about these great old trains, and I certainly am learning much from the fine folks on this forum.
Long time no see vintageflyer!
Honestly, that is the main reason I am here as well. Only difference it appears is you had the fortune to get some prewar Flyer, while I have not.
Northwoods Flyer Correct! It is the cupola roof for the #121 IVES Caboose "Ives used several American Flyer Wide Gauge freight car bodies in the late 1920s for some of their freight cars. They used only one O gauge body, from an American Flyer 3211 caboose, for their 121 caboose. Although marketed by Ives, it is included in this listing as a item of interest. In 1928 Ives was purchased at their bankruptcy sale by Lionel and American Flyer, both of which continued Ives under their control. In 1928 and 1929 some American Flyer equipment was marketed with Ives plates by the joint Lionel-American Flyer management. This is one of those pieces...." This "Transition Era" has always fascinated me. I've wondered how the corporate decisions were made. This is the only piece of American Flyer-Ives equipment that I have. I'm always on the lookout for the Wide Gauge transition pieces, but I don't have any yet. There are far more examples of equipment that featured parts from Ives and Lionel. In fact much of the Ives Line equipment eventually was incorpoprated into what became the Lionel Jr. line. I have a number of examples of those pieces even though they aren't American Flyer influenced. I believe there are a few pieces that include parts from all three manufacturers. Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
The one that stands out in my mind is the Wide Gauge tank car. I believe it had the Ives plates, trucks, and couplers, a 14" American Flyer frame, and a Lionel tank car body, I believe 12" size.
tinplatacis The one that stands out in my mind is the Wide Gauge tank car. I believe it had the Ives plates, trucks, and couplers, a 14" American Flyer frame, and a Lionel tank car body, I believe 12" size.
I do not recall all of the variations of Ives transition cars, but I know that there is a standard gauge tank car with a Flyer tank and frame and that there is a standard gauge tank car with a Lionel tank.
However, in looking in the Flyer wide gauge book, there is a picture on page 83 that shows the beast you mentioned, a tank car with Ives trucks, Flyer frame, and Lionel tank.
I know there is also an Ives produced crossing that has an Ives base, Lionel automatic crossing gate, and a Flyer shack (sometimes with windows and sometimes without windows, with the windows being painted on).
OK, new discussion here. The first two photos are pictures of my 1907 Metzel windup engine.
Next up is a photo of my 1908 Metzel/American Flyer engine
The next two photos are of a c. 1908-1910 engine.
And lastly, another likely c. 1910 engine.
As the photos show, there are some distinct features to the 1907 and at least the 1908 engine castings, in that they feature a lot of extra painting detail that is not found on the later engines. For instance, the smokestacks are or were painted red at one time. The 1907 engine has gold paint on portions of the steam chest. The insides of the smokestacks are also painted gold on the two early engines.
I am posting all of these photos because I noticed something different on the 1907 Metzel casting and I am not sure if it is a feature common to all 1907 engine castings or if it is a factory error.
On the 1907 casting, I noticed that there is more to the casting than on the later castings. Specifically, there is an extra area below the catwalks, between the 2 screws that hold the body to the motor. On the later engine castings I noted that this extra area is visibly ground or cut off.
So the question is, is this extra area a common feature on all 1907 castings? a feature found only on some early castings? or simply an error which should have been ground off, but was not?
As of yet, I have not observed this extra area on any other engines that I have photographed in the past.
In all my internet searching, I did find one other example of a 1907 engine with the extra side skirting. Unfortuntely, the picture was not in jpeg format and I could not figure out how to format the photo as a jpeg, so I cannot show it here. However, on Liveauctioneers.com I discovered a similar engine that was sold with a 1907 tender and 3 1907 coaches on the November 2013 Stout auction.
It is also the only engine I found with the unusual early wheels. There were other 1907 coaches and 1907 tenders (as evidenced by unpunched windows on the coaches and unpainted frames on both the coaches and tenders); however, none of those engines featured the early style wheels or red painted smokestacks, leaving me to wonder if they were truly sets.
When you post the photos of these early trains it always amazes me that they are still in existance. I haven't spent much time doing any reading about the production before the early 1920's so I am always learning something new from your posts. The second thing that amazes me is that you are able to find any other examples to compare with, and that you can find documentation. The third amazing thing is the condition that you find them in.
Thanks for being such an asset to the thread. Keep the photos and posts coming.
PS. This is the only clockwork engine that I have in the collection and its a youngster in comparison to yours.
Northwoods Flyer NationWideLines, When you post the photos of these early trains it always amazes me that they are still in existance. I haven't spent much time doing any reading about the production before the early 1920's so I am always learning something new from your posts. The second thing that amazes me is that you are able to find any other examples to compare with, and that you can find documentation. The third amazing thing is the condition that you find them in. Thanks for being such an asset to the thread. Keep the photos and posts coming. Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer PS. This is the only clockwork engine that I have in the collection and its a youngster in comparison to yours.
Northwoods,
that is a nice and relatively rare windup engine you have. Rare due to its red color. I am guessing you have it with some Empire Express type cars, if not, that engine would typically come with the small Empire Express type cars. I have 3 examples of red windups and they are less common than the black painted windups. I think the red painted windups are possibly a 1-year only type color variation.
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