Northwood Flyer, when I first saw the pictures of Craig's cars, I wondered if they were from the Prairie Set. When I looked at the roofs, I could not determine if they were red as in the Prairie Set or were they brown. American Flyer used brown roofs on their Broadway Limited Set, on an uncatalogued set 7012 and probably other sets. Below are pictures of the cars that came in the 7012 Set.
The Baggage Car.
The Passenger Car
And the Observation Car
The locomotive that pulled this set was the same loco that pulled the Broadway Limited Set, the 3011midsize boxcab but with a black roof. The set dates from 1927. I did not have the locomotive so I sold the cars after looking for a while but not finding one. I wished now I had kept the cars. (Update 2022; a year after selling these cars, I was able to buy them back for the individual who bought them from me. Later I did get a locomotive for the set, but when I recveived in the mail, I was not to happy with the roof. The roof looks like it has a bad repaint. I will continue to look for a better one.)
Like you, Northwood Flyer, I have been for years trying to put together a Prairie Train Set. Unlike you I have the loco and a half way decent tender but I need the rest of the set. The red No. 16 Type XI locomotive was one of the first American Flyer prewar trains I bought when I started looking for trains. It came with some other trains in a big wooden box that had survived a flooded basement. The guy who owned them decided to sell the trains before another flooded basement took care of them. I just happen to be in the right place at the right time. Most of the other trains were prewar Lionel and were sold later on to finance my search for more American Flyer trains. As you can see from the picture below, I have had some success.
strainst
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer
Craig,
I really like the way this looks, and the photo of all three cars with the lighted drumhead on the observation is spectacular. Thanks for posting the step by step process for installing the lighting. There are varying opinions about doing alterations to vintage equipment, but I think you did a first rate job and the outcome is aesthetically pleasing.
I thought you might like to know that the pullman car that you did the demonstration on is from the Prairie State mechanical set. The Prairie State set appeared for sale in the 1929 and 1930 catalog. Here are some photos of the page from the 1929 catalog.
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Here are the lighted passenger and observation cars with lighted drumhead (Dan's drumheads).
Craig
Yet another question.
I picked up an American Flyer #1 1/2 transformer (50w) for an auxiliary track. Hooked up to the variable voltage terminals, the trains just zoom at the lowest setting.
Is there any straightforward way of reducing the voltage output of the transformer - say at least in half?
The transformer for my main tracks is a Lionel KW which works just fine. Is this AF transfomer just "hotter?"
Thanks,
Thanks strainst.
Yes, the PRR keystone is a decal. I picked up some odds and ends cars and thought the decals might add some sense of continuity. Plus I also have a lighted PRR end-drum for the observation car which I hope to put together tomorrow.
I love the way the car looks with the lights on. Did you add the Pennsylvania keystone to the sides of this car? I don't think I have seen one before. It looks great!
Northwoods Flyer
The Jeffersonian -- what a stunning set your neighbor has; a great start for an American Flyer collection.
LIGHTING CARS which don't have rail contacts.
I have several passenger cars that are not set up (no roller contacts) for lighting. I considered several methods to light these cars, including trying to find trucks or rail contacts that might work. I finally decided to try battery powered lighting. After a number of experiments I settled on this method. I realize that folks probably wouldn't want to do this to valuable collector equipment, or maybe to any as it does require drilling a hole in the bottom of the car. But maybe it will be useful information to some.
The method requires an LED light strip, A23 12v battery, battery holder, sub-mini on-off toggle switch, aluminum and packing tape, frosted plastic sheet, wire, and soldering.
The LED reel (from Amazon) has a length of LED lights that can be cut into sections as small as 3 lights. I used a 6-light section for this car (litho 6" American Flyer Coach). The frosted plastic sheet (from Robert Grossman) was cut into 1" by 5" sections. The toggle switch, A23 battery and holder were found on eBay.
A strip of aluminum tape is fixed to the roof and the frosted strips are taped to the car using packing tape.
The electrical components are wired and soldered.
The LED strip is self adhesive and is fixed to the roof with a couple pieces of aluminum tape for extra security. Also the wire contacts to the LED strip are insulated with a piece of electrical tape.
A hole is drilled in the base of the car and the toggle switch attached.
The battery holder is hot-glued to the floor of the car and wires routed.
The roof is then snapped on and the car is now capable of interior lighting.
Since I have just done this I don't know about how long the battery will last, but I'm thinking as little as I need to light the cars, it will hopefully be a while. The battery will not be all that difficult to replace when it is necessary.
Thank you for the catalog and comparison pictures. The catalog description mentions two-tone green, and I can see where the roofs are a little darker. Both sets I have are nearly identical and more of the lighter color bodies.
One set was heavily rusted, and I used the Evapo-rust mentioned earlier. Unfortunately for the first car I used it on - the coach car, which was the most heavily rusted - I left in the solution too long (more than 24 hours). The result was an even lighter uneven paint color and removal of much of the stamped lettering. The other cars and engine shell I left in for 45min- 1 hr and that worked well. No damage to the paint or lettering and most of the rust was removed from the bodies and more importantly wheels and axles.
You have definitely been doing your research. It is really impressive what a person can discover and the information that can be found just by sitting at home in front of a computer. I really enjoyed the link to the Boy's Life magazine. I know where I will be spending some time reading.
The Frontenac was cataloged for the three years from 1930 to 1932. In each year it was headed by the 3107. In 1930 the catalog lists the set as #1322 and it says that the 3107 is a "reversing type". This is a photo of the catalog page from 1930.
Thank you Northwoods Flyer.
Page 2, eh? Right in front of my nose. Jeez. The sets I have are a lighter (faded, no doubt) green but that is clearly it.
I did some investigation of Frontenac. I'm thinking it may have started with Louis de Buade, Comte de Frontenac et de Palluau who was the governor of New France from 1673-1682 as many of the other references to the name are Canadian.
There were several Frontenac cars - most notably cars made in Canada by Durant and Dominion from 1931-33, but also one made in New york in 1909.
Then here is an extensive reference listing of train names on quite a number of railroads. A train named "Frontenac" ran on the Canadian Pacific Railway.
http://www.innvista.com/culture/travel/rail/namerail.htm
Then finally I ran across this link of a page from the December 1931 Boys Life magazine with an American Flyer ad for the Frontenac among other trains. The manual reverse version I have sold for $11.50. I guess it has held its value OK over the years.
http://books.google.com/books?id=9v0Me0lNg48C&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=american+flyer+frontenac&source=bl&ots=5Xn-MoO_Gm&sig=i0QhavKNWfvJS4wZj8q6Mxgq3yI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7v82T9X6FerZ0QGgx4mRAw&sqi=2&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=american%20flyer%20frontenac&f=false
What you have is indeed a "Frontenac" set. Way back on the second page of this thread I have a picture of my set which appears to be a deeper green in color and I am also missing the #3150 baggage.
Those photos were posted almost 4 years ago before I posted much information about items. The Frontenac appeared in Flyer Catalogs from 1930-1932. I'll post some additional information and a photo of the catalog page a bit later when I have some time.
Nice set.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
This is a set I recently purchased and am not sure what it is. Actually I now have two of them.
The cars and engine are green. The engine is a 3107 and has a manual reverse. The baggage car is marked 3150, the passenger car is marked 3161 and the observation car is marked 3162. I believe the markings in silver are stamped rather than decals. The passenger and observation cars are lighted.
I have just gone back over this thread from the beginning and did not see this exact set pictured. Maybe I missed it. I believe the Highlander set had these three cars, but the engine was a steam engine. I also think this might be the Frontenac set, but am not sure about that. From thread comments here and there, and a site which lists all AF engines, I'm guessing the set is from 1930, maybe a year or two later.
Both engines need re-wheeling, and I have re-wired one. I've ordered the wheels and will have a wheel puller and arbor press soon and will follow the very helpful suggestions and step-by-step y'all provided earlier.
Is it the Frontenac? Also what is a Frontenac? Near I can figure it is a town in either Canada, Minnesota, Kansas, or Missouri.
Beautiful set! I can't imagine that many of these are still around in this condition.
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Set # 1346
The Jeffersonian . . . . continued,
The next box out of the set box also has a version of the American Flyer tape used to seal boxes.
I noted a few pages back that someone had posted pictures of 1107-1108 variations. Here are a few more.
First is a B& O passenger car from 1917. It features Type III frame and type IV couplers. I also noted that the lettering is thicker than the lettering on the c. 1918 and later cars.
The Jeffersonian . . . . continued.
I'm finally back to continue the description of my neighbor's set which I started one page back.
The set comes with its original set box, and all of the individual boxes.
Yes I also give my Thanx for the information posted!
NationWideLines,
Welcome to the forums and to this thread. Thanks for providing the great information and help to Craig. I am not particularly knowledgeable about the inner workings of the engines nor about repair. Your responses not only helped him, they have also given me some valuable information about addressing some of the repairs that I need to do on pieces of my equipment.
Its good to have you here and offering your expertise.
strainst,
Thanks for you help too. Its good to know that there are people reading and posting that can help with questions or resources and suggestions.
Harbor Freight has 1/2 ton arbor presses for $28 on their website. That is the size I have.
I also use two shims when pressing the wheels on, because the axle generally needs to stick out beyond the wheels in order to have the correct spacing of the wheels to fit between the rails.
NWL
Thank you to both of you for the detailed and excellent ideas and instructions. I am so grateful for your responses as this is all new stuff to me.
I did the recommended hammer/punch on the thigh technique which did indeed free up the drive wheels. So I now know it is not an axle/bearing problem. The reason I thought it might be the wrong axle (wide gauge) is because none of the O gauge axles pictures on the Restoration Parts site had splined ends, whereas the picture of the wide gauge axle did (which mine do). I'm thinking now that they are the correct O gauge axles because of the knurled comment.
I will need to re-wheel it as two of the wheels are split and the other two are on the verge of crumbling.
I'll check on getting an arbor press.
Great information guys - I really appreciate it.
Nationwidelines Prior to getting the arbor press, I used a bench press to push on the new wheels. It is a little bit harder this way, as one is working sideways and the balancing of the engine is more difficult. NWL
Prior to getting the arbor press, I used a bench press to push on the new wheels. It is a little bit harder this way, as one is working sideways and the balancing of the engine is more difficult.
I meant to say I used a bench mounted vise to press the wheels on.
One last clarification and opinion.
I did look at TTRP's website and saw the axles they are listing. There is one that is labeled "drive axle" that appears as if it is meant to replace the drive axles on these engines. One thing I noted about these axles is that they are not knurled like the original axles and I am not sure how good they would work.
I know that the bearings in the original motors, if they have them (in some early motors the frame is the bearing) do wear and the axles can have play in them. I have had one engine that the bearings were worn through and I had someone else install new bearings and axles in that engine. Although the engine with the new bearings and axles runs good, I am overall not pleased with the repairs to this engine.
The reason for my displeasure is that these O gauge motors do not come apart easy and do not go back together well. This engine now has screws holding the frame together and one of them rubs on the wheels. I am not sure that any other method could be done to put one of these engines back together, so I have avoided installing new axles and bearings on other engines.
I have a friend who says that when he finds worn bearings on O gauge engines, he reems the bearing out so that it will take a larger size axle. Then once the larger axle is installed, there is no play in the axle. I have not tried this method and would be afraid that I would not center the new axle properly and would somehow screw up the operation of the engine.
By just leaving the axles with some play, the wheels/axles might flop around a bit, but providing you keep the engine oiled, there should be no problem in its operation.
Another tip, rewheeling steam engines is more difficult as the wheels typically need to be quartered correctly to re-install the drive rods. Additionally, I do not care for the steam engines that have the cast gear on the backs of the drive wheels. I have found that the gears on new wheels do not always work well and have stripped a pair during operation.
Just some thoughts.
I guess I should clarify two items relating to the repairs / rewheeling I described. I do not recommend buying a wheel press from a train parts source, unless you want to spend 5 to 10 times what you should be paying. I purchased a brand new bench top arbor press for around $30 on ebay. Kind of the same thing on the drill press. I have a small used bench top drill press. It is big enough for the job and although I got mine used, I know that new ones are cheap.
I typically do not use wheel cups when pressing on new wheels. One reason is that I am not sure what size would be correct and most of the train parts places are advertising Lionel wheel cups. I just hold the engine and eyeball it.
I like to run my engines and I have probably rewheeled 30 engines this way. Prior to getting the arbor press, I used a bench press to push on the new wheels. It is a little bit harder this way, as one is working sideways and the balancing of the engine is more difficult.
Nationwidelines - Welcome to Trains.com!
Darren (BLHS & CRRM Lifetime Member)
Delaware and Hudson Virtual Museum (DHVM), Railroad Adventures (RRAdventures)
My Blog
I do all of my own engine repairs and will attempt to answer your questions. First of all, the axles that you found (press fit, slip fit, etc.) sound like they are axles for leading/trailing trucks for steam engines and not the axles that you need.
I rarely find that the axles are bad on Flyer O gauge motors and would not recommend that you replace them.
There is a difference in the diameter of O gauge and standard gauge axles and they are not interchangeable.
Based on my experience, I would guess that the old wheels on your engine have expanded enough at the hub around the axle so that they are rubbing against the motor frame and that is causing your wheels/motor to turn hard.
To check this, I recommend using a hammer and punch to pound on the axle, with the motor on your thigh. You need to do this on a soft surface as the wheel/axle has to be able to break free and move, which will be difficult if you are doing this on a workbench. You may need to turn the engine over a few times and pound the other side of the axle as well. You should be able to break the wheels free from rubbing on the motor frame if you take your time. In some cases I have been able to free up a motor and avoid re-wheeling it just by doing this.
The drive gears on your engine are likiely not epoxied to the axles and they will be ok. What typically happens is that the gear hub that holds the gears on the wheel have separated from the rest of the wheel. You will just need to pull the gear off, like you would pull a wheel off. Then you will need to pound the remains of the wheel out of the center of the axle. Tap lightly with a punch to clean this stuff out.
As for soaking your engine in whatever fluid, I have never had to soak an engine in anything and am not sure I would recommend it. Although it may take some of the gunk off, I am not sure that it is good for the electrical components of the engine.
The electrical / wiring aspect of the Flyer engines is fairly simple. There is either 1 or 2 wires coming from the track power pickup. One wire goes to the bottom of the main motor winding. The other wire, if present, is for the headlight (since not all engines have headlights, this wire may or may not be present). At the top of the motor windings, there will be a wire coming out that will either go to one of the brushes or to the reverse mechanism (again not all engines had reverse, so it could go either place). If the engine has reverse, then there will be two wires coming from the reverse mechanism, one to each of the brushes. If there is not a reverse mechanism, there is likely only the single wire coming from the motor windings to one of the brushes. The other brush is likely to have some sort of contact to the motor frame for its source of power. I have seen larger springs that fit over the brush tubes, held in place with a small cotter pin, that provide for the electrical contact if there is no reverse mechanism.
Another important thought for you. I always recommend that the springs and brushes should be replaced when servicing a prewar engine. The reason I recommend this is that the prewar brushes are made of copper wires that have been meshed together to form the brush. These types of brushes create a tremendous amount of friction and will wear into the armature plate over time. The new brushes are made of graphite/carbon and do not wear into the armature plate. One may need to trim the length of the new springs.
As for the wiring itself. I typically install new wiring for the individual pieces that can be removed and put shrink fit insulation over the wires that cannot (such as the wire coming out of the motor windings). I get my shrink fit insulation at Radio Shack, because that is where I have found it.
You will need a solding iron and some good solder for this. I recommend avoiding solder with a resin/flux core, because I was an electronics technician in the US Navy and learned that one should not use flux when soldering electronic components. You may have to clean the old wires / contacts with sandpaper to make the job easier, but that is not too difficult.
As for wheel/gear pullers, you will not find anything in the market that you can use off the shelf. The closest size item you are going to find is a battery terminal puller, but you will find that the center point that presses on the axle will need to be modified and that the jaws that pull the wheel off, will not fit between the wheels and frame.
I use a custom made wheel puller that is home made and not pretty looking, but with a little work, I can get it behind the wheels and pull them off. Prior to getting this I used to pound the axles out of the wheels, using the method I suggested above to get the wheels free from the motor frame.
Tips on rewheeling your motor.
Tools needed, Drill Press, Arbor Press, drill bits
1) You need to find a drill bit that is the correct / same size as the axle. The new wheels are press on and I have found that the axle hole diameter is too small. Therefore, I drill approximately half way through the wheel (from the back side of the wheel) with a drill bit that is the same size as the axle. This allows the wheel to be mounted more quickly and straighter than if you are trying to press it on entirely without drilling the hole out.
2)I first press the axles on to the wheels that have the gear hub. Afther the gears are pressed on, I recommend pounding a chisel against the backside of the wheel at the hub/axle hole. This should tighten the wheel up to the gear and prevent it from coming loose later.
3) Press on the wheels using the arbor press. I recommend checking the wheel as it is going on, because you need the wheel to go on straight. I often end up pulling the wheels off halfway through the process and trying again, because they are not going on straight.
Thank you for your VERY helpful reply strainst. What a great resource for parts. I'm not sure why I hadn't run across them in my Internet searching. A great feature of that site is the part pictures.
For instance, while I can turn the 3107 wheels by hand, they do not turn freely. The way it is now would put a lot of strain on the motor. So I'm thinking the (remaining) wheels are too snug, the axle is bent, or there is some other source of binding. I will need to get some form of wheel puller (auto parts store) to see if the problem is too snug wheels. I checked out the TTRP site and saw that they had three types of axles (slip fit, press fit, and "regular') for "O" gauge AF - none of which look like the axles on my motor. So I checked the picture of the AF Wide Gauge axles and sure enough there they were.
Now I don't know if there is a difference in diameter between Wide Gauge and "O" gauge axles, that would make them too snug in the bearings, but that may be the problem. Also you can see that the drive gears appear to be epoxied to the axles. Again looking at the TTRP part photos, it looks like that may be how the gears are attached as the center "hole" is triangulated. The epoxy job on my gears is a little rough and may need smoothing if indeed the Wide Gauge axles are not the problem.
I didn't see which of the three "O" gauge axles were appropriate for the new wheel set, but I can email them to find out.
In any event I believe I will no doubt become a regular customer.
With regard to my previous post, I rewired the 3011 engine using different diameters of heat shrink tubing and ran a jumper from one brush to the motor frame and that engine is running well. So the simple wiring diagram looks to be accurate.
A further note on the 3107 motot. Even with the drive wheels not engaged (idler gear removed) the motor would barely turn when I applied current. This engine and accompanying cars had a lot of rust. I bought a gallon of Evapo-rust for the cars and I'll post on the rust removal of the cars later. So I decided to just soak the motor in the Evapo-rust, which I did for about an hour. After rinsing and thorough drying, I applied current and the motor spun beautifully. I don't know if this will become a regular treatment for gunky engines, but it sure produced amazing result with this one. If I can figure out the drive binding issue, I'll get a new wheel set, rewire the motor and be good to go (I hope).
You may want to check out Evapo-rust. It is non-toxic and biodegradable it does remove rust. I bought mine locally at O'Reilly Auto Parts. They didn't stock it but had it in the next day.
Thanks again for your help.
For a replacement wheel, go to Toy Train Restoration Products. There web address is ttrponline.com. They sell the wheels in complete sets for $36.00. The part number for the wheels is AO1000.
I found a table of contents for the Complete service manual and see that there is little if anything on prewar trains. So I will keep up my search, but with dwindling hope. I spent several hours yesterday looking for a simple wiring diagram for a prewar AF AC motor. Not much.
This looked useful (minus the jumper):
So here are the two motors I am needing to rewire. First a 3011 motor:
Then a 3107 motor:
I don't know if either is functional, but won't until I wire them properly. Hopefully I am on the right track with the diagram above. Any information you might add will be appreciated.
I am also wondering about replacing the insulation on the wires. The 3011 has a beaded-type arrangement and the 3107 some very hardened material. Would shrinktube - maybe several layers - be a suitable replacement, or should I look for something more substantial?
Finally one of the drive wheels on the 3107 is bad (actually two of them). I'm hoping to find a source for a replacement. I think a possibility is George Tebolt train parts, but I didn't see any illustrations to confirm, and it looks at first glance like the way to communicate with him is with a SASE letter.
Here's the bad wheel.
Thanks for any help you can offer.
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