Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

[Nationwidelines]

In reviewing the photos that I posted of these type XII engines, I noted that there are 3 different variations of side rods used on the engines I have.  Possibly the side rod variations are due to varying production dates.

[Nationwidelines]

I am not really sure how elusive that variation of the type XII locomotive is.  I counted 4 of them in my train room and I have many more electric sets than windups.  The 4 I have, differ in wheel color, window outline color, and color below the windows.  I have these with 3 various sets in my collection, including a Nation Wide 5.5 inch freight set (yellow window trim version with red wheels), a set with 518-519 AF cars (yellow window with black painted wheels), and a set with 1107/1108 orange Jefferson cars (red stripe below window), with the 4th engine being with a 509 road name tender (red stripe below window).

 

[AF53]

Gary - Very nice, maybe the next one that comes along I'll have less competition in the bidding process? 

Ray  

[overlandflyer]

AF53

The Type XII has one more number which I'm still hunting for and that's number 11.

Ray

...you mean this one?

#11 Type XII(c) (ca. 1931-32)

an elusive version of the Type XII, the last casting change included a small firebox w/ rivet detail, slots below the cab windows, modified cylinder wrappers and cast-in handrails.  again as with Type XV, no plate was ever installed in the cab slots.  this example pictured even has some of the original paint filling up one of the slots that i'm carefully leaving alone. the small firebox slightly hid the rear motor mount, but the change to the cylinders & handrails looks to be purely for a cosmetic upgrade.

i will admit i poached this motor off a Type XIV for the photo.  the motor i received along with this casting was a real *cough* beauty with three different types of wheels; only one original.  and though this motor matches the documented (c) variation, installing a motor similar to Ray's example above would be just as valid making this a #11 Type XII(b).

i included the non-key side as an interesting feature of all Type XII castings.  the sides are close to mirror images, but notice that the casting key clearance on the left side is actually quite larger than the right side.  was Flyer originally planning a left-side key motor for this type?

cheers...gary

[AF53]

Back a few pages on March 11th I showed a photo of a Type XII Locomotive # 2 (or number 12). Another Type XII is below, it's numer 1 (or number 10). Again American Flyer used the same casting with different numbers. Number 1 was cataloged between 1922-24 and number 10 was cataloged between 1925-26. What makes this different from numbers 2 or 12 is this has the stamped-steel wheels and no side rods or brake.

The Type XII has one more number which I'm still hunting for and that's number 11.

Ray

[Nationwidelines]

Caboose Oddity

Although I hate the prospect of a repainted item in my collection, I did purchase the following item recently.

 

The un-trained (pardon the pun) eye could mistake this item as not being original (in fact it was advertised as having altered handrails).  I know the very first one of these rare cabooses I spotted, I thought it had altered hand rails.  However, I was quickly corrected by an old-timer TCA Past President (who has a TCA number that is less than 100).  He asked me not to bid on that first one, as a friend of his was bidding on it.  I kindly let the item go to his friend and began looking out for one of my own.  That must have been 7 or 8 years ago now and this is only the 3rd one I have seen since that first one I saw.  In fact it is only the 5th one I know of.

Additional proof to its originality can be found in the 1928 American Flyer catalog, which shows the following picture.

I believe the catalog artwork for this odd caboose contiued throughout the 1930s for individual sale cars and was shown in sets in the early years.  I know that my 1931 catalog shows the more common variation of the caboose in the set artwork, but still shows the odd hand rails in the single sale caboose artwork.

One might ask "Why is this caboose so rare?"  The obvious answer is it must have been very time consuming to put together.  The hand rail is a one-piece brass wire that runs from side to side on either end of the caboose, wrapping around the two posts at the rear. 

I would guess that these hand rails were much like the 5 window standard gauge caboose, the idea looked good on paper, but was a production nightmare.  Oh, and there are 5 window standard guage cabooses out there.  I have seen one or two.

Here are some more pictures, with the red caboose being a later variation from 1928.  One interesting thing that I noted is that the later 1928 caboose has holes punched in the floor for the two posts on either sides of the end of the cars. 

Another interesting note, and indication of originality, is that the holes for the handrails on the sides of the caboose are different than the holes for the handrails on the later variations of the cabooses.  The later variation handrail cabooses have diamond shaped holes punched out for the brass stamped handrails.  The caboose with the odd hand rails has a circular hole at the bottom, where the brass rod comes out of the side of the car and a square hole at the top (not punched in a diamond shape), where is mounting base similar to that used on electric boxcabs to hold the handrail in place.

Lastly, here is a more common variation of the 1928 caboose.

So, in light of this being only the 5th caboose with hand rails like this that I know of, I am more than happy to get a repainted one.

NWL

[overlandflyer]

i think i've gotten a problem with my photo editing identified and the transformation of Flyer red that was mysteriously turning into fluorescent shades seems to have gotten better.  still in the learning phase with my new camera.   apologize if some of the wheel-red in my previous photos is a little off.

 

so finally, ...clockwork Type XV, one of the least expensive cast iron locomotives with quite a few changes in its production run of close to a decade (1926-1934).  all Type XVs used the small economy motor which was inherited from the end of the Type XIII run, though the No. 35 bell ringer modified the motor with a mechanical clapper arm reaching back to a rear mounted bell.

 

Type XV #9a (1926-29) - this was the first design identifiable by the button-type dummy headlight and no firebox detail.  Type XV #4 locomotives were identical to #9 with the addition of a brake lever.

 

Type XV #9b (1930-32) - around 1930 the casting design was changed to feature a better looking square headlight and also added a firebox extension with rivet detail.  slots beneath the cab windows appeared for a short time, but were never populated with a nameplate as it might imply.  this detail was eventually  left off later models.  again, the identical Type XV #4b casting only has the addition of a brake.  neither casting up to this point had drive rod guides behind the cylinders.

 

Type XV #34a (1930-31) - drive rod guides were added to a 'high end' version of the Type XV in 1930 with straight drive rods having a profile unique to this type. the (a) version also included a brake lever.

 

Schuweiler notes this locomotive as a right side winder.  when the motor was adapted to the Type XV from the previous Type XIII, the key was changed from a left side solid post to a left side screw-in, however, if the key is missing from the newer motor, there is still a small square shaft on the right side.  my guess is that this stub may have been mistaken as the primary key winding location.  in any case, the Type XV shell is too small to contain a standard (larger) Flyer clockwork drive with its right side key.

 

Type XV #34b (1930-31) - pure speculation on my part, but with the covering over of the below-cab-window slots (the red paint isn't filling the holes, the slots are gone in this casting) and the change to an offset drive rod, my feeling is that this is the last version of the #34.  the brake was also eliminated from this version of the motor.

 

Type XV #35 (1932) - a mod to both the shell and clockwork motor accompanied the change to red livery in 1932 with this uncataloged version.  the inclusion of a bell mounted behind the motor required a lengthening  of the casting all done in the cab area.  a second mounting screw is also present on the right side close to the rear of the motor.  ...hang on, we're almost done.

 

Type XV #37 (1933-34) -perhaps it was the pressure from the Hafner 'Century' set in 1933 which started featuring a battery operated headlight that prompted a final change in the Type XV casting.

 

a front view more completely shows the casting change needed to mount a working headlight bracket.  a "Limited" Type VII tender held the battery hidden under a coal pile.  my only example of a #37 is missing the complete front end of the drive rod guides on both sides, though it's hard to tell whether this was the original design or, more likely, one side broke off for the original owner and to keep it symmetrical, the other was was ground down, too.  the edges seem too smooth for an undoctored break.  if anyone has an example with complete rod guides, i'd like to hear about it.

 

cheers...gary

[Penny Trains]

Thanks guys! 

I installed cardstock armchairs, a galley, partitions and curtains in the Junker to turn it from an air ambulance to a commercial airliner.

I also have a 3207 green gon, 3211 caboose and a blue and yellow boxcar (the number escapes me at the moment).  But the 120 tender tips with all that weight behind the drawbar.  So one of these days I'll have to get something better to pull those cars.  However, all 3 of those cars have latch couplers.    Horror of horrors! 

Becky

[Northwoods Flyer]

Penny Trains,

  Welcome to the thread.  Its nice to have you here.  I've read on other threads about your eclectic collection, and I have followed and admired your work on your Disney theme park and other themed layouts. 

 

I agree with gary, you have assembled a nice mixed freight, and the 3195 looks great as your motive power.  I use mine to pull my Iron Horse set.

 

Thanks again for posting.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[overlandflyer]

Penny Trains

...  3195 and 120 tender.  Behind them are a Dorfan gondola, an AF 1112 Automobile car, an Ives 63 gravel car and a 4 wheel Ives 67 caboose.  ....

Becky

truly a mixed freight, i was going to question whether they would all couple gracefully, but i gathered a similar consist to check and sure enough, it worked out just fine.  not an "American" flier, but nice Ju-52.

cheers...gary

 

[Penny Trains]

Got mine out yesterday for a tune-up and gave her some break-in runs today.  3195 and 120 tender.  Behind them are a Dorfan gondola, an AF 1112 Automobile car, an Ives 63 gravel car and a 4 wheel Ives 67 caboose.  My 300AC is what you see in the distance.

Becky

[overlandflyer]

trying to sort my severely disorganized photo/scan collection, i came across this one...

years ago i picked up a Flyer cash register that seemed like a bargain and  later discovered the fun money inside was the less common version of the two styles.

 

(1936 Catalog cover)

 

borrowed from a previous post for comparison, the central bill graphic is a copy of the 1936 catalog cover.

cheers...gary

[Northwoods Flyer]

strainst

 

At the same time I was able to pick up a 3017 caboose with a green base.  When i first saw it, i thought someone had repainted the base until I turned it over.  This car also has its number stamped in black.  Has anyone ever seen this variation?

Here is the bottom with the number.

 

strainst

    3017 (I)

strainst,

Along with your blue 3046 you also snagged an interesting 3017 caboose.  I have never seen this variation and Schuweiler doesn't mention it in his book either.  He does list 8 different variations of this 8 wheel caboose.  I think we might just be able to add this to the list as variation (I).  It would be interested in seeing if anyone else has this variation.  I don't have it in my collection. 

 

Here are the 3017s that I have for comparison.

 

 

 

Here are two examples that have the reverse of your caboose.  Green roofs with red frames.

 

 

 

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[overlandflyer]

Nationwidelines

As for the re-used metal on the small NWL car, I have seen examples of the smaller cars both NWL and American Flyer cars, with re-used litho flooring.  Most of the time the re-used metal is facing up into the car and is not visible.  I suspect when it is visible that possibly someone saw it inside the car and turned it out so that it was visible.

it was on the inside of the coach,  i just popped it out for a proper portrait.

Hafner and Marx were also big users of recycled tin.

btw, Kenilworth is also a northern NJ town.

thanks again for the updated tender info.  cheers...gary

 

[AF53]

NWL - Pinehurst is in Atlantic County and Lakewood is in Ocean County. Both are in southern New Jersey.

Ray

[Nationwidelines]

As for the tenders, I have tenders with Hancock on both sides, Madison on both sides, and one with West Point on one side and American Flyer on the other side.  I think it is just a matter of what the people assembling the tenders had for plates to put on the tenders.

I believe I have also seen tenders with Adams on them and do not recall about the other names.  I suspect there could be variations with all of the nameplates on them.

As for the re-used metal on the small NWL car, I have seen examples of the smaller cars both NWL and American Flyer cars, with re-used litho flooring.  Most of the time the re-used metal is facing up into the car and is not visible.  I suspect when it is visible that possibly someone saw it inside the car and turned it out so that it was visible.

NWL

[overlandflyer]

Nationwidelines

This is interesting as I did not know about the West Point and Hancock county coincidences.  Obviously the Hancock, West Point, Madison, Academy, Annapolis, Army-Navy, and Adams plates that may or may not be found on these 3196 tenders result from their being extra plates produced for the standard gauge President's Special, Legionaires, and Flying Colonel sets and not likely from these towns in western Illinois.  ...

well, there's a fact that isn't really mentioned in the PrewarO text.  i have seen some Wide Gauge President's Specials up for sale in the past, but have never been curious (or rich) enough to look that closely and notice the name plates.

are other tender examples known?  are they typically on one or both sides when found?

though sometimes you just have to make due with what you have on hand...

(Nationwide coach floor)

 

(electric Type VI locomotive, Type III (119-style) tender, express style coach)

cheers...gary

[Nationwidelines]

mersenne6

   This wouldn't be the only set carryover from 1931 with no listing in 1932.  I have another set which exhibits similar characteristics.

In hindsight, I guess it should be noted that the catalogs typically came out late in the year, so it would make sense that the sets would have been sold/produced well into 1932.

I also have some late production sets from the 1930-1931 era that have unusual engine/motor configurations in them.

Mersenne, I find your description of the set box most interesting in that it was flat with no room for a tunnel and that it had space for the log car.  Obviously, your set must be some sort of uncataloged Railroader set that featured the Railroader set tag.  Too bad the whole box did not survive.  I know from reading various wholesaler catalogs showing flyer sets, that some of the wholesalers were selling sets 1 to 2 years after the sets being discontinued from the Flyer catalogs.  Specifically, I recall a Clipper set in a 1933 wholesaler's catalog, but the set last appearing in the Flyer 1931 catalog. 

I also did not note the decals on the engine/tender until you mentioned it.

 

NWL

[Nationwidelines]

Overland Flyer wrote

"now, in Greenberg there is a 3196 tender shown with "Hancock" plates which up until now, i would have thought might have something to do with John Hancock, but interestingly there just happens to be a town in western Illinois by the name of West Point, which is in Hancock county. coincidence? it was rumored that Louis Marx had big buyers in Bogota and Montclair, NJ. i wonder is William Coleman made some similar pieces for his local business contacts."

This is interesting as I did not know about the West Point and Hancock county coincidences.  Obviously the Hancock, West Point, Madison, Academy, Annapolis, Army-Navy, and Adams plates that may or may not be found on these 3196 tenders result from their being extra plates produced for the standard gauge President's Special, Legionaires, and Flying Colonel sets and not likely from these towns in western Illinois.  The entire grouping of plates seem to be more in the American History/Military theme than being related to small towns in Illinois.  Obvious references include West Point (army academy), Annapolis (navy academy), Army-Navy, Academy, Hancock, Adams, Madison (Revolutionary War figures (John Hancock, James Madison, John Adams) / US President's (Adams and Madison).

However, the initial question by Overland Flyer does bring up the references to where some of the names that Flyer and other manufacturers used.  I have always wondered about Bing, with some of its named cars including Kenosha, Waukegan, Rockford, Rochelle, which are cities/towns in the overall larger Midwest/Chicago area.   Bing's Pinehurst and Lakewood cars have been mysteries to me, but I believe that Pinehurst may be a NJ reference.

I know that Flyer used Glyn Ellen, which is a suburb of Chicago.  I have also heard that there was a Terminal Station in Chicago somewhere.  The Central and Union Stations are common enough names, with Chicago still having a Union Station.  Kennilworth is also a suburb of Chicago, which was near where WO Coleman lived, so that makes some sense also.

Not sure about any other references by Flyer, but there are likely more of them.

 

NWL

 

 

 

[mersenne6]

  Thanks for putting the pictures up Northwoods.  For whatever reason the only way I can now  get to this forum is through Firefox and it will only allow me to post messages.  I sent an e-mail to CTT so I'm hoping they will be able to tell me about some kind of workaround otherwise my contributions to this thread are going to be severely curtailed.

  The version of the Railroader I have was in a flat box and all that was left of the box when I got it was the remains of the bottom half and a piece of the top with the set ID.  The bottom part had places for each of the cars, a space for what I'm sure was the station and some of the track side accessories (missing) but no room for a tunnel.

  As for the issue of decals it isn't just the flat car that has them.  The engine and tender both have decals instead of brass plates.  As I detailed in the series of posts I did on the #3190/3180 I think the engine itself is the last of the leftover parts type #3190's and given that it has the 1932 motor I think it is a 1932 product even though it was only cataloged in 1931. 

  This wouldn't be the only set carryover from 1931 with no listing in 1932.  I have another set which exhibits similar characteristics.

[overlandflyer]

occasionally i'll join that group who, sadly, require a 3rd rail.

likely in the 3192 class (electric Type III loco + 3196 tender), here's a curious one...

left side view, "American Flyer" plate on the loco, "American Flyer" Plate on the tender.

right side view, "3195" plate on the loco, "West Point" tender.

now, in Greenberg there is a 3196 tender shown with "Hancock" plates which up until now, i would have thought might have something to do with John Hancock, but interestingly there just happens to be a town in western Illinois by the name of West Point, which is in Hancock county.  coincidence?  it was rumored that Louis Marx had big buyers in Bogota and Montclair, NJ.  i wonder is William Coleman made some similar pieces for his local business contacts.

for comparison, two pictures of my other 3195 (slightly different motor, Flyer plates on both sides) in contrast to its parent, clockwork Type XI casting.

though it went through a major redesign to incorporate the electric motor and working headlight, its clockwork heritage is still clearly evident in the electric Type III casting.

cheers...gary

[Nationwidelines]

Here is a scan of the 1931 catalog showing the Railroader set

 

This is a photo of my Railroader set from 1931.  Although I did not acquire this set with a box, everything shown in the photo, except the crossing gate, came in a single purchase from a private party.  Therefore, I concluded that it was the railroader set and added the missing crossing gate.

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods/Mersenne,

I suspect Mersenne's 1317 Railroader set would have to be a very late 1931 or early 1932 set, as 1931 was the only year that the 1317 Railroader set appeared in the Flyer catalogs. 

I would also suspect that the blue log car was added to his set at some point, maybe added by the original owner during the year following their initial purchase of the set.  I conclude to this because the catalog description for the 1317 Railroader set does not list a log car as a component of the set.  An additional factor that lends some support to the log car being added to Mersenne's set after it being sold, is that his log car has decals on it and the other cars in his set have the heat stamping / rubber stamping lettering.

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

3046 (f)   blue variation - continued

strainst,

You snagged a very nice example of the 3046. From the number of examples of the blue 3046 that have been posted it appears that it is not as uncommon as I thought it was.

 

I received an email from Mersenne6 a few days ago.  He is having difficulty posting photos to the thread. He sent the following photo and commentary to me so that I could post it.

 You will notice that the set pictured has a blue 3046.

Mersenne6 says: 

 "Attached is a photo of a "leftover" 1932 set - it is the #1317 Railroader but the engine is the "leftover" 3190 which I mentioned in the electrified cast iron section of the thread way back when.  The engine is #3190 shell with the motor from the 1932 #3307 and the new for 1932 version of the 3199 tender.  All I had (they crumbled) were a few brittle fragments of the set box which is why I know the set is #1317. "

 

Thanks Mersenne6.

 

This is the 3046 that I have in my collection.  In room light it appears to be almost black.  It appears dark blue in the photograph.

 

 

 

And just for good measure here are the 3046 siblings that I have in the collection.

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[overlandflyer]

Ray, thanks again for the post.  it's really nice getting some other opinions on CI clockworks.  other places i've posted strings, i've been averaging ~0% feedback.  ok, so let's go with Type IX, then...

it was nice to see your cast iron wheel version, for i now feel this is legitimate.

here is the left side of a mate to yours, with one odd addition.  the front wheel looks original, but it also looks like it is aluminum(??)  very hard to tell except for the color and texture without removing (and it's only on the left).  i can't seem to find the reference, but i thought i had also read somewhere that Flyer at one point made cast iron drive rods which turned out to be very fragile and the reason some are missing.

Type IX's also seem to have had the most cab embossing variations.

Type IX - "A.F."

 

Type IX - "A.F.10" - the more conventional version

 

Type IX - "A.F.11" - note the smaller lettering

and one that isn't mentioned in the text...

Type IX - "A.F.1"

the "A.F.10" variation definitely looks like an addition to the plain "A.F." embossing, but the "A.F. 1" is centered differently which i feel makes it unique rather than a mistake with a casting void.

the short-lived Type IX (1920-22), replacing the 2nd generation Type VI and subsequently being replaced by Type XII as the "small, better quality" class, is much more commonly found with the 8-spoke, stamped drive wheels w/ no brake or side rods as shown.

cheers...gary

 

[AF53]

Well Gary, since I don't have any Type XV's yet (because you have them all), I thought I might go with....

Here is a Type IX Clockwork Locomotive number 2 (ca. 1920-1922). Number 2 came in 3 variations, however none mentioned "ten-spoke red die-cast drivers with side rods and "A.F. 10" below cab window. Making me believe it's a number 2(a) shell with a number 2(b) motor. Or, we just may have stumbled across a new variation, 2(d)?  

Type IX came in two versions, 1 and 2. The only difference being that number 2 has a brake. This one is missing it's side rods. Notice the "A.F.10" below the cab window. Alan Schuweiler gives R. Trickel credit noticing that "it appears as the number is an afterthought because it is not always centered."  

Ray

 

[overlandflyer]

Ray, a nice example of a "premier" Type XII loco.  Type XII's are much more common with stamped drive wheels and no side rods or brake.  i've never been able to definitively calculate the years that straight drive rods were used, but my feeling is that it was after 1922 since the only examples i have are on Types XII, XIV and XV motors, but later Type XV's (the bell and headlamp versions) went back to offset rods.  straight rods were longer on the Type XIV and slightly different on the Type XV, so it's also hard to fake this type by swapping the motor without it being noticed.

always handle cast iron driver locos carefully.  i can attest to the fact that it doesn't take much of a fall to shatter the spokes out of a wheel.  luckily it was only a one-time occurrence.

time to cover Type XV?

cheers...gary

[AF53]

Here is a Type XII Clockwork Locomotive number 2 (or number 12). At times American Flyer used two catalog numbers for the same locomotive and this is one of them. Besides having some slight different lettering/numbering under the cab window, it is identical to the numbers 1, 10 and 11 of the Type XII loco's with the main difference being the die-cast wheels, side rods and brake.

The  number 2 was cataloged from 1922-1924 and number 12 from 1925-1930.

Ray

[overlandflyer]

AF53

Here is a Type V Clockwork Locomotive number 15 variation D, ca. 1919-1920. With a length of 7 3/4" it was American Flyers largest cast iron Clockwork ever.

Ray

=============

along with defining Types, Schuweiler also classified four groups of Types and for nearly two decades, a top-of-the-line, large cast iron class of clockwork locomotive was always listed starting with Type V (1914 -20), Type X (1920 -22) and finally Type XI (1922 -26 & 1929 -32).

(l to r) Clockwork Types V, X & XI

and the largest locos also held the largest c/w motors.

the brake lever rod also had a slightly different function on these motors.

the front of the motor contained a track trip lever which could be used with a special track piece to 'put on the brakes'.  after activated, pulling back the cab lever arm resets the track trip which sends the train on its way again.  this mechanism changed in design with the last Type XI, but functionally remained the same.

getting the most bang for their buck, Flyer also used these three basic large shell types (with some mods, especially to the Type XI) as their first three electric motored, cast iron, steam locomotives.

cheers...gary

[strainst]

Northwoods Flyer

 

3046 Log Car

 

This variation of the 3046 is not listed by Schuweiler in the Greenberg Guide.  He lists 5 variations (A through E) of the 3046 cataloged between 1930 and 1935.  The dark blue color is what makes this car unique.  I am going to propose that this is actually variation (F).  The Type VIII trucks were used from 1933 through 1938 so I would guess that this variation appeared in 1934 or 1935 (the 3046 was not cataloged in 1933).  The fact that the box is labeled and is priced individually indicates that it was available as a seperate sale item.

 

And just to be certain that this is a 3046 we can look at the bottom.

 

 

I have an example of this blue car in my collection, but the color is so dark blue that it appears black.  Under very strong light you can see that it is blue and it also has a yellow 3046 rubber stamped on the bottom.  In talking with NationWideLines I believe that he has a car similar to this one.

 

 

 

Here is an example of a blue 3046 I picked up a couple of weeks ago.  The condition is not as nice as the one from your neighbor, but I was thrilled to get it.  This one has Lionel couplers on it and is stamped in black on the underside.  I see how the original couplers were mounted on your neighbor's car, so now I know what I need to do to attached the correct couplers.

                 

As you can see, I need to do a little work on the brake wheel stand.

 

 

 

At the same time I was able to pick up a 3017 caboose with a green base.  When I first saw it, I thought someone had repainted the base until I turned it over.  This car also has its number stamped in black.  Has anyone ever seen this variation?

Here is the bottom with the number.

 

strainst