i don't have access to my clockwork version right now, but i do have an electric motor Hiawatha on my shelf and you're right about this model; it sure is purdy!
the good news is that there is no headlamp cowl missing from your piece. not sure if any of the c/w versions supported a battery/headlight, but on the electric version, there is merely a screw-base socket behind the hole and the globe of the headlight bulb is all that shows externally. if you had the headlight bracket, that hole in front would be filled with an attachment rivet.
with my electric version (a whistling motor), there is also a lead weight (marked "W.O. 6027") attached by yet another screw up front sadly detracting from that nice wing logo.
cheers...gary
In relation to AF streamlined steam, I recently acquired this O scale clockwork Hiawatha "Atlantic" that in my book rates among the most detailed American clockwork engine I have ever seen. Separately applied chrome handrails, domes and stack, four color lithography and the cab being molded to offset the outline from the rest of the body, as well as faux piston guides. It just confirms what a quality product AF was in that era along with my other acquisitions. The photos don't do the bright colors justice. I am keeping an eye out for the articulated cars. Looking at the front and how the headlight position was cut, I suspect I am missing a chromed cowling, maybe not.
.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
I loved the pictures of the three types of AF streamlined engines. I especially loved the shot of all three on different tracks. Nice!!
From photos I found on the Internet, it looks like they were patterned after the PRR S1 and NYC Streamlined Hudson (other than wheel arrangement of course).
They must have been something to witness.
miggy2007 I have an unmarked engine in rough shape that I was trying to identify. while this one looks like it with the accent copper pipes and all, I am missing the trucks in front and rear, with no markings. Looks lik AF underside with the motor pickups. I do not have, however, the front or rear car-connects, no do I have space in the front cowcatcher. http://s1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/frank77433/ Thanks for your thoughts. Scot
I have an unmarked engine in rough shape that I was trying to identify. while this one looks like it with the accent copper pipes and all, I am missing the trucks in front and rear, with no markings. Looks lik AF underside with the motor pickups. I do not have, however, the front or rear car-connects, no do I have space in the front cowcatcher.
http://s1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/frank77433/
Thanks for your thoughts. Scot
Scot, what you have is an uncataloged American Flyer Type XX locomotive from ~1935. the good news is that you are not actually missing the trailing truck for this was made as a 2-4-0 with the whistle mechanism taking up so much room, a trailing truck was not put on this version. some further bad news, however, is that you seem to be missing both the main drive rod and side rod from at least the side you show.
the whistle motor is not extremely rare, but it is nice if you have a functional one.
Scot - Welcome to trains.com!
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I will post photo: whoops, I dont have a photobucket account.
Type XXI Steam Locomotive
(Pennsylvania Locomotive) 1936 - 1939
In 1936 American Flyer introduced the Type XXI Steam Locomotive that was patterened after Pennsylvania streamlined locomotives.
The locomotive has a sheet metal body and a die cast boiler front. The wheel arrangement is unusual in that it is an 0-4-2.
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Thanks for the coupler information.
From your descriptions I can see how the link pins could be remotely uncoupled. There are a number of AF uncouplers on eBay, but all look to be for 2-rail (S) track. As a matter of fact, it isn't clear to me how an uncoupler with solenoid controlled arms would work with 3-rail track as the middle rail would be directly below the links. I suppose if I saw a picture - I'll look for one.
Found one:
It looks like the entire middle rail section lifts.
Also, maybe it is just an adjustment, but on the cars I have if the link pin coupler is not coupled, it hangs low enough to contact the center rail with predictable effect.
I have some prewar Lionel passenger cars with several different types of couplers (1938-1942). None of these will hook up with the curly-Q. Postwar Lionel knuckle couplers, however, hook up fine as overlandflyer stated.
Northwoods Flyer ... I have read that (the curly "Q" coupler) will also couple with a Lionel knuckle coupler, but I have never tried it personally. ... Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
... I have read that (the curly "Q" coupler) will also couple with a Lionel knuckle coupler, but I have never tried it personally.
...
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
i tried this today and they mate almost perfectly. odd since i didn't think the Lionel knuckle coupler was produced until well after 1938(?) the earliest L catalog i have with automatic knuckle couplers is 1946.
I like link couplers as they will couple on curves and straights equally well. The die cast prewar ones on the heaver truck frame are more reliable the the post war plastic ones that become sticky and not drop down consistently. They couple the cars closer together that earlier tab couplers (pre war) or later knuckle couplers during the post war era.
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer There seem to be three different types of couplers with O gauge cars. I am assuming the tab-and-slot couplers came first, then the curly-q, then the link couplers. I don't know, however, what AF was thinking in this progression (if indeed that is how the progression occurred). What advantages did the later couplers convey? I don't think any of them are capable of automatic uncoupling, though I think the curly-q and link couplers could be coupled automatically. Perhaps the curly-q looked more prototypical than the tab-and-slot? The link couplers seem to be the most secure - almost needing explosives to separate them. I can't imagine that any were cheaper to manufacture than the tab-and-slots.
There seem to be three different types of couplers with O gauge cars.
I am assuming the tab-and-slot couplers came first, then the curly-q, then the link couplers. I don't know, however, what AF was thinking in this progression (if indeed that is how the progression occurred). What advantages did the later couplers convey? I don't think any of them are capable of automatic uncoupling, though I think the curly-q and link couplers could be coupled automatically. Perhaps the curly-q looked more prototypical than the tab-and-slot? The link couplers seem to be the most secure - almost needing explosives to separate them. I can't imagine that any were cheaper to manufacture than the tab-and-slots.
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer;
American Flyer used the tab and slot couplers for a long time. Schuweiler identifies eight different variations of the tab and slot coupler that were used from 1907 until 1939. The Wide/Low Profile cars that you have shown were cataloged from 1930 through 1939.
The sheet metal knuckle coupler was used in 1938 and 1939 and is actually a design introduced by Gilbert when they took over the company in 1938. "The curly Q" coupler can couple remotely if you push the cars together just right, but it does not uncouple remotely. I have read that it will also couple with a Lionel knuckle coupler, but I have never tried it personally.
The "automatic" link and pin coupler is also a Gilbert design that was introduced in 1939 and was used on the O gauge line until production was shifted to war work in 1941. This type of coupler with a few changes was used on the S-gauge line after the war. The link and pin coupler does couple when two cars are pushed together - just right. It also uncouples remotely with a special track section. When the couplers are positioned over the track section the operator pushes a button that energizes a solenoid (I think) and two long pieces of metal pop up and push the two links upward off of the pins. Its simple but it does work
overlandflyer Northwoods Flyer: I would like to know if anyone else has a variation like this, or if they have it in a set. The ultimate would be if someone has it in a boxed set that would help in documenting it. I have a feeling that it was used in an uncataloged set, and perhaps for a department store account. could it have been as simple as the original owner finding an extra (or salvaged) Type XX electric motor and swapping the original frame out? why not have a fully functional loco. i'm sure at the time they may not have thought about their tossing out a future collectible. cheers...gary
Northwoods Flyer: I would like to know if anyone else has a variation like this, or if they have it in a set. The ultimate would be if someone has it in a boxed set that would help in documenting it. I have a feeling that it was used in an uncataloged set, and perhaps for a department store account.
could it have been as simple as the original owner finding an extra (or salvaged) Type XX electric motor and swapping the original frame out? why not have a fully functional loco. i'm sure at the time they may not have thought about their tossing out a future collectible.
Gary,
I think it is a possibility that a swapping could have occured. The engine looks like it is all original. I was just wondering if anyone else has seen an engine like this, and if there was some verification that it was original. There are still a few factory original items that are variations that have come to light.
When I match this powered engine up with the dummy from the Double header it makes a nice double header with two Type XX steamers.
The curly-q coupler on the double-header locomotive is also on a passenger car I have.
I have been picking up AF enamel "wide" passenger cars here and there and now have an assortment of couplers and trucks on these cars.
overlandflyer a page from the 1928 consumer catalog... and a graphic Flyer unfortunately mislabeled for quite a few years, i am most interested in item 8 (referring to illustration point #9), Black Japan Finish. this seems to be a corrosion resistant paint also used on some period hand tools and very well suited to cast iron. just wondering if anyone has already done the legwork (investigation) on this. original formula? modern substitute availability? cheers...gary
a page from the 1928 consumer catalog...
and a graphic Flyer unfortunately mislabeled for quite a few years, i am most interested in item 8 (referring to illustration point #9), Black Japan Finish. this seems to be a corrosion resistant paint also used on some period hand tools and very well suited to cast iron.
just wondering if anyone has already done the legwork (investigation) on this.
original formula? modern substitute availability?
Gary
Coal is one of the primary ingredients.Looks difficult if not impossible to duplicate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_black
Northwoods Flyer I would like to know if anyone else has a variation like this, or if they have it in a set. The ultimate would be if someone has it in a boxed set that would help in documenting it. I have a feeling that it was used in an uncataloged set, and perhaps for a department store account.
i could see my dad doing something like this to "make it better". frankly, if he was still around to find out what i paid for a motorless engine, i'm sure he would have quickly found another use for the word 'dummy'.
Northwoods Flyer For some reason the Double Header Set is one that has always fascinated me. Nice find on the box. Did your Dummy Loco come in that box? I wish that the stamping on the box was legible so that we could actually figure out what the number for the Dummy Loco is. I wonder if it actually was available for separate sale. I bet it would be listed in a dealer's catalog or price list if it was offered for separate sale. It sounds like an opportunity to do some research. ...
For some reason the Double Header Set is one that has always fascinated me. Nice find on the box. Did your Dummy Loco come in that box? I wish that the stamping on the box was legible so that we could actually figure out what the number for the Dummy Loco is. I wonder if it actually was available for separate sale. I bet it would be listed in a dealer's catalog or price list if it was offered for separate sale. It sounds like an opportunity to do some research.
=============
yes, it was the box that came with the Type XX dummy i have and when purchased, came with the Type IV, curly-q coupler tender. a nice find together and why i thought it might be the correct tender for a separate sale dummy loco.
but once again pictures seem to be more effective than real life. giving the box photos another look (make that a rather long, intense look), i have started to see a "42_" detailed in the user-enhanced picture below...
(added a copy of the original undoctored scan to compare)
two other things worth mentioning... the "428 " written above the printed text is an old pencil mark, not mine, and there is no listing in the Schuweiler book for a prewar #428. also looking at the surrounding catalog numbers, #427 (the last number assigned to the Type VI w/ vandy tender combo) and #429 (the first number assigned to the renumbered Type XVI 0-6-0 switcher), both were 1939 models as was the dummy Type XX.
it would be nice to have a more clearly printed example, but it's interesting to see how the mind seems to work to fill in the blanks. ...time to walk down to the ocean and see if i can catch the green flash. :)
overlandflyer,
For some reason the Double Header Set is one that has always fascinated me. Nice find on the box. Did your Dummy Loco come in that box? I wish that the stamping on the box was legible so that we could actually figure out what the number for the Dummy Loco is. I wonder if it actually was available for seperate sale. I bet it would be listed in a dealer's catalog or price list if it was offered for seperate sale. It sounds like an opportunity to do some research.
There are postings for the Double Header Set at several locations on the thread. You mention the first post on page 15. Some additional posts continue on page 16. I did a post on it for the Christmas Wish List 1939 on page 33. On pages 53 and 54 there are several entries by MomsFlyer about his mother's train and identifying it as The Double Header Set.
I don't think that you will have any trouble finding that fourth part of the double header set. The powered Type X locomotive will be much easier to find than the Dummy Type XX.
Somewhere back a number of pages I posted some photos of an unusual Type XX. It has the curly "Q" sheet metal knuckle coupler, but it is a powered unit. Schuweiler doesn't list it and I haven't seen any other examples of it.
i thought i had noticed a posting of the #437 double-head engine-tender combination set earlier on and sure enough it was posted at the bottom of page 15 in this string. but i got to thinking about the dummy locomotive as a separate sale item; after all, on the 1939 catalog page it states, "Total cost of above units if bought separately".
although the two locomotives in this set are different, the tenders are both Type IV, but with different couplers. the front tender coupler matches the curly-q coupler on the dummy pilot, but the rest of the train, including the tender behind the dummy, has automatic link-pin couplers.
now if you wanted to run this set as with a single locomotive, the natural procedure would be to remove the dummy locomotive and tender, but that would leave the front tender with the curly-q coupler mismatched to the link-pin couplers of the consist.
to me it makes more sense that the correct tender for the dummy locomotive should be the Type IV tender with the curly-q coupler. this would allow the powered Type X locomotive to work alone with the Type IV link-pin coupler tender which, when separated from the dummy loco, would be the correct tender for the powered unit.
i don't save or even go out of my way to collect many boxes, but this is one i thought interesting enough to hang on to. unfortunately i've stared at the leading characters under different lighting for a while, but still can't decipher the faded text, but clearly "DUMMY LOCO" is the correct contents.
currently i'm in that same "3/4 complete" club, but at least my 4th, a good, powered Type X, should be a little easier than obtaining the dummy loco.
Northwoods - Congrats and welcome to our world! It's nice to have more competition!
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
re: Type XV, #35 a nice find with the working bell (or working period). mine is very finicky with the clapper gearing a little wobbly and sometimes stalling the engine completely when it hangs up. you definitely started with one of the harder to find Type XV's. cast iron clockworks disappeared from the Flyer catalog completely by 1933, so this was always noted as uncataloged. i've got to imagine that some stores still liked the small express-type sets and wanted to continue those to perhaps even chew up remaining stock, though a complete overhaul of the Type XV casting seems a bit extreme for something with such a short expected lifetime(?) anyway, you could probably judge accordingly, but i would think the 518/519 passenger/ club cars would be just about as big as you'd want to not dwarf this loco. the #515 size cars would look a little better, though probably a little late for those to be accurate. i have a Type XI in red, your Prairie State loco, but i have a feeling it is an old restoration (not totally convinced, but skeptical). i have seen a genuine red Type XI and the highlights that you would think should be gold (as they were with every other Flyer CI loco up to this point) are actually silver on that particular locomotive. as an interesting side note, i recently discovered a collection of G. Sommers & Co. catalogs in Minnesota that i'm having someone research for me. in a few weeks i may have an answer to your consist question.
Here is a 1/2 page newspaper advertisement from the November 19, 1926 Denver Times. The ad idicates that the Denver Times will give the pictured set away to those who sign up new subscribers. Unfortunately, the ad does not mention how many new subscribers are needed to win the set.
The set shown, which is reported to be an "Actual Photograph of this fine Electric Train and Transformer", is a 1218 boxcab locomotive, a 1205 Milwaukee Road baggage, a 1206 Seattle - Chicago Milwaukee Road coach, and a 1207 Chicago - American Flyer Lines coach, and transformer.
overlandflyer:
Because of you I'm afraid that I am going to have to stop coming here and reading the entries on this thread. You have become a very bad influence on me.
After reading all the entries that you and several of the other folks have made about the Cast Iron windup engines I was tempted beyond endurance. I gave in and purchased my first clock work Flyer engine.
I intended to purchase a matching engine for my Prairie State cars and #19 tender at some point. While checking the listings I came across a red engine that I thought was the correct one. Instead I came up with this:
Here is one more episode in the saga of my neighbor's train set. Back on page 61 I posted some information on the two additional boxed cars that were in the same set box as his Set # 1346 Jeffersonian.
Northwoods Flyer Gary, You have done a great job of providing information on the Cast Iron Wind Up engines. Thanks for your invaluable contributions to the thread. Are there more photos of engines to come? What about the cars that go with the sets? Can we look forward to seeing those items from you too? ... Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
You have done a great job of providing information on the Cast Iron Wind Up engines. Thanks for your invaluable contributions to the thread. Are there more photos of engines to come? What about the cars that go with the sets? Can we look forward to seeing those items from you too?
well i went through the past 6 pages and see there are only a few cast iron types left to show but unfortunately 3-4 of them still elude me in a search for a decent condition piece. there are still the sheet metal clockwork Types i could contribute when i locate a few strays in storage somewhere.
though i've purchased many groups of Flyer pieces, i'm not that much of a complete boxed set collector and i've had some doubts in the past about auction house lots being actual sets.
here's one that, if it wasn't an actual set, at least matches up closely in years of production...
soon to graduate into the century collection, this little consist is one of my favorites both with the simulated wood sheathing and the Union Pacific roadname.
still tweaking the lighting system. it's frustrating balancing well lit pieces without incurring reflections. i also need to finish a much larger setup to handle more than a few individual pieces.
Accessories
4 Rail Whistle Track
In 1936 American Flyer marketed an odd looking 4 rail track that was used to activate the whistle in a number of its engines. The reason that Flyer came up with this track is because of the patent that Lionel held for a whistle mounted in their tender. There was a law suit over patent infingement and Flyer lost. This track and the whistle it activated were Flyer's answer to finding a way to have a whistle on board their trains. The base of the track is masonite. The notches in the base are there so that a track clip can be attached to the track.
This 4 rail track comes in straight and curved track and also half curve and half straight. I have a full box of the straights which have a label identifying them as #601. This is not the best photo, but it does show that the track is super-elevated, or banked. This one is a bit better. In 1936 there were a number of sets that came with the track activated whistle that was housed in a tender or passenger car. It was included in the Union Pacific Streamliner, the Zephyr, the Hiawatha, and the Hudson. Each of the sets that included these engines came with what was called the new 40" Diameter High Speed Model Track. Page 20 of the 1936 catalog describes the new track and shows pictures. However the track that is shown only has 3 rails, and they are mounted to a roadbed which "makes the train practically noiseless". I have seen examples of this 3 rail track on eBay. NationWideLines has reminded me that the 3 rail track with the masonite base was only available as a seperate sale item in 1936, as the catalog states that is not included in sets. The 4 rail track is not pictured nor is its function mentioned. The numbers of the pieces of the New Road-Bed Model Track are: No. 600 Curve Roadbed Track No. 601 Straight Roadbed Track No. 622 1/2 Curve Track No. 621 1/2 Straight Track In the 1937 catalog Flyer introduced a new Remote Control Whistle in a billboard on page 3 of the catalog. The whistle is no longer housed in the tender or passenger car, but each set has a small notice in a red box that says "Add the Whiste Unit page 3". Set descriptions indicate that 40" diameter track is included. It appears that Flyer tubular track has changed from 30" diameter to the high speed 40" diameter. In the seperate sale section for track the No. 600 and No. 601 Roadbed Track are still available for "Whistle trains of 1936". In the 1938 catalog (which is the first Gilbert American Flyer Catalog) the Roadbed Track is not listed. Thanks to NationWideLines for help with additional information. Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
Page 20 of the 1936 catalog describes the new track and shows pictures. However the track that is shown only has 3 rails, and they are mounted to a roadbed which "makes the train practically noiseless". I have seen examples of this 3 rail track on eBay. NationWideLines has reminded me that the 3 rail track with the masonite base was only available as a seperate sale item in 1936, as the catalog states that is not included in sets. The 4 rail track is not pictured nor is its function mentioned.
The numbers of the pieces of the New Road-Bed Model Track are:
No. 600 Curve Roadbed Track
No. 601 Straight Roadbed Track
No. 622 1/2 Curve Track
No. 621 1/2 Straight Track
In the 1937 catalog Flyer introduced a new Remote Control Whistle in a billboard on page 3 of the catalog. The whistle is no longer housed in the tender or passenger car, but each set has a small notice in a red box that says "Add the Whiste Unit page 3". Set descriptions indicate that 40" diameter track is included. It appears that Flyer tubular track has changed from 30" diameter to the high speed 40" diameter.
In the seperate sale section for track the No. 600 and No. 601 Roadbed Track are still available for "Whistle trains of 1936".
In the 1938 catalog (which is the first Gilbert American Flyer Catalog) the Roadbed Track is not listed.
Thanks to NationWideLines for help with additional information.
only a few cast iron, clockwork types left to show and here is the last known, the uncataloged Type XVII along side it's electric version counterpart, the two electric Type VII castings.
this comparison photo illustrates the casting changes needed to modify the clockwork shell for the two types of motors installed in the electric versions. the first change required the right side air tank to be shortened to clear the motor brushes, and the second revision cut into the left side air compressors to make room for the outside gearing of the revised motor.
the larger change in these castings occurred up front. as with Type XV, a large mod was made in the pilot area to attach a working headlight bracket on the electric types. and although the inside gear electric motor has stamped drivers with rivet attached drive rods, the outside gear version with cast wheels had a threaded mounting attachment stud. hard to pick up visually from these pictures, but small hex-head shouldered screws were used to attach the rods.
well i guess maybe that explains why i haven't been able to recall where i saw that text i thought mentioned cast rods. perhaps it is in the electric section which i don't reference nearly as much as the clockworks.
i only mention the rods from my own observations. it seems like an inordinate amount of later clockwork motors (early 30's) are missing at least one drive rod or both with evidence they used to exist. though it also may have even been due to the attachment method to the driver which seems to vary a bit. only the last cast iron clockwork type i have, Type XVII, has threaded studs to secure the rods, all previous types were either riveted or pinned into the driver.
thanks for the info...gary
overlandflyer i believe at one point Flyer was using cast drive rods and either through metal rot or due to their inherent fragility, many of those are missing or have been replaced. for some reason the 14 spoke wheels era (early 1930's) seem to have the most causalities of this sort including many of the 3195 electric types also made around this time. i have no information on repro side rods ever being or even currently available.
i believe at one point Flyer was using cast drive rods and either through metal rot or due to their inherent fragility, many of those are missing or have been replaced. for some reason the 14 spoke wheels era (early 1930's) seem to have the most causalities of this sort including many of the 3195 electric types also made around this time. i have no information on repro side rods ever being or even currently available.
I do not believe that Flyer ever used cast side rods on their windup engines. However, in 1930-1931? Flyer did use cast rods on their O gauge electric steam engines and I believe that all of their standard gauge steam engines had at least some cast rod components. These rods are prone to metal rot and breakage due to their fragility and engines with original rods tend to attain premiums.
I beleive that the only casting problems Flyer had with their windup engines was related to the wheels experiencing metal rot, on versions that had pot metal wheels.
NWL
Nationwidelines I am not really sure how elusive that variation of the type XII locomotive is. I counted 4 of them in my train room and I have many more electric sets than windups. The 4 I have, differ in wheel color, window outline color, and color below the windows. I have these with 3 various sets in my collection, including a Nation Wide 5.5 inch freight set (yellow window trim version with red wheels), a set with 518-519 AF cars (yellow window with black painted wheels), and a set with 1107/1108 orange Jefferson cars (red stripe below window), with the 4th engine being with a 509 road name tender (red stripe below window).
I am not really sure how elusive that variation of the type XII locomotive is. I counted 4 of them in my train room and I have many more electric sets than windups. The 4 I have, differ in wheel color, window outline color, and color below the windows. I have these with 3 various sets in my collection, including a Nation Wide 5.5 inch freight set (yellow window trim version with red wheels), a set with 518-519 AF cars (yellow window with black painted wheels), and a set with 1107/1108 orange Jefferson cars (red stripe below window), with the 4th engine being with a 509 road name tender (red stripe below window).
nice group! well, i was careful not to say rare. i just tend to see more of the earlier "A.F.10" versions. Ray, see, it's not me hoarding this one! ...though if i see a red-stripe painted #11, i would probably consider it.
i always wonder about the motor history in these pieces and for that reason, i really put more effort in the casting and sometimes paint variations. with one screw, two at most, it doesn't take much effort to change a c/w motor in a cast iron AF loco and for the most part, there are very few that cannot be swapped around. i've even gotten more than one piece with a Hafner or Ives motor installed and fitting perfectly. i'm not sure if i've ever tried putting a Marx motor in a Flyer shell, but i wouldn't be surprised if it also fit.
side rods have also been a curiosity to me. i've seen too many of the straight versions in early 1920's pieces to not believe they aren't original, but a few of the offset examples i have seem to be replacements. as i mentioned earlier, i believe at one point Flyer was using cast drive rods and either through metal rot or due to their inherent fragility, many of those are missing or have been replaced. for some reason the 14 spoke wheels era (early 1930's) seem to have the most causalities of this sort including many of the 3195 electric types also made around this time. i have no information on repro side rods ever being or even currently available.
one thing to watch for in all clockwork motors is a mismatch of drive rod to the proper shell. the lengths do vary and an improper motor installed will sometimes either bind (rods too long) or result in the rods slipping out or the cylinder guides (too short).
this is a big pet peeve of mine with Hafner early 112 types.
as far as i can tell, the early 112 was the only Hafner loco with extra long drive rods but many are sold with a more common Hafner motor (lower). even though at full extension the bottom loco looks ok, the tip of the rod is barely contained in the cylinder whereas the proper length rod (upper photo) is still about 3/16" inside. a very hard detail to pickup visually, but extremely important in getting the proper original motor.
apologize for going a little off-topic, but again, Flyer clockworks can also be easily mismatched.
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