Thanks for the information on the wheels.
That is a nice paperweight. The Bipolar is such an impressive and imposing engine. I would like to see what the cab was like inside. It looks almost like there is room for living quarters or something, but I doubt that. Perhaps one of the books on the Milwaukee Road has pictures or a description. It is interesting that the bipolar design was not very powerful as the engine gives a visual impression of great power.
UPDATE: Well, ask and the internet provides. I found these pictures of the interior. My imagination of some sort of roomy comfort was all wrong. As I've seen in most locomotives - strictly utilitarian. The center section housed a boiler for heating the train.
Also I learned that the Bipolars were considered to be powerful at the time and were used in the mountains where steam locomotives required double-heading.
The engine frames were hinged in several places. I wondered how it would negotiate curves otherwise.
There are lots of scale models of this engine (Lionel, MTH, HO, brass etc.) Flyer's model has to be the simplest and most impressionistic but, in my opinion, a really creative effort.
Craig
Craig,
Unfortunately, I cannot provide a source of parts for this item. You may try Eric Trickel of Trickel Cast Parts. I believe that he has made similar wheels that have a steel gear mounted to the back of them.
Personally, I have been buying used motors and scavenging them for this type of wheel (wheels with open spokes and cast gears). The wheel you have looks like a spoked wheel with open spokes, which would be for an early type XX motor that shared the same cab as the 401. The wheels like you show were used on several engines, but they did not always have the square boss on them. I know that later type XX locomotives had simulates spokes, but no openings between the spokes.
NWL
The examples that you have of the 3116 actually look to be pretty nice. Most of these toys are closing in on the 80 year mark and have seen a lot of life and been loved as playthings. Not many of the items in my collection are collector quality. I have purchased the best example that I could afford and frequently the quality is not excellent by any stretch of the imagination. I bet your better example will clean up nicely, and I look forward to seeing what a 3116 looks like in Milwaukee colors.
I am not much help when it comes to finding parts. I haven't moved into that aspect of the hobby yet. I bet that when Nationwide Lines reads your post he will have some suggestions of sources for the wheels.
The Milwaukee Road has several iconic engines. The Hiawatha of course always jumps to mind, but for those of us who are fascinated by anything Milwaukee Road the BiPolars are another example. Even the Milwaukee Road understood this and used the images of their engines to their best advantage. Here is a paperweight immortalizing the BiPolar.
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Alas, Northwoods, the photo of the 3116 I used is not mine - it is originally from the internet, not sure where. I used it because it was a better example than the ones I have.
Here are mine:
One is in pretty good shape, missing only a pantograph; the other is in need of re-wheeling, lights, etc. You can also see that I doubt we are bidding against each other, as I tend to buy "less than collector quality" items. I am considering repainting one of them in Milwaukee Colors along with a set of 8" lighted wide body cars that are currently all red,
I'm sorry if using the "internet" photo caused any confusion.
I passed on a Potomac passenger car set at a reasonable price a few months ago. Dumb.
I would love to see pictures of the factory Milwaukee Road set you and NWL are talking about.
On a completely different subject. I am looking to re-wheel a steamer (I think a 401). It appears though, as if the wheels are unique in having the square boss for the outer valve gear. Here are a couple photos to illustrate.
You can also see that rather than a press on gear like the electrics, these wheels have a gear as part of the wheel (I think).
I contacted TTRP, who informed me that their replacement wheels did not have the square boss. Any ideas where I could find replacements? Actually the drive wheels with the valve gear connection are usable, so I just may need two other wheels of similar appeaance.
Northwoods Flyer Schuweiler mentions in his book that there is a factory prototype of a passenger set in Milwaukee Road colors that exists in a private collection. It uses a #3020 locomotive and 2 - 9 1/2 inch cars. I agree that a set in Milwaukee Road colors would have been spectacular. Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
Schuweiler mentions in his book that there is a factory prototype of a passenger set in Milwaukee Road colors that exists in a private collection. It uses a #3020 locomotive and 2 - 9 1/2 inch cars. I agree that a set in Milwaukee Road colors would have been spectacular.
Northwoods,
The set that Alan mentions in his book is quite spectacular as I have seen it in person. It does not use a 3020, but rather uses a 3020 frame on which a machined brass bi-polar cab rests. The engine cab is unpainted. The cars are common Illini / Columbia cars (a baggage and a coach) that have been hand painted in the Milwaukee Road colors. Specifically the cars feature orange bodies and frames with a red stripe along the top of the car and red painted doors and window frames at either end of the passenger coach. The cars also have a red painted roof. Both cars are hand lettered "Chicago, Milwaukee, & St. Paul" across the top and the baggage is lettered "US Mail - 1801 - Express" and the coach is lettered "Butte"
You picked up a nice example of the #3116. Its a bit scary, but I think you and I might be bidding on the same auctions. I already have a #3116 but finding one in a nice box with the original tape is a real bonus. Now all you need to do is find the matching cars and you will have:
The Potomac
The #3116 was cataloged in 1928 and 1929 and then again in 1931. In the first two years it was paired with the 3180 series of cars in a set called The Potomac. It was also available for seperate sale. The #3116 is a center cab locomotive and is referred to as a St.Paul Style by Flyer, which gives further evidence that it is modeled after the Milwaukee Road's Bipolars.
Thanks for the information M636C.
Yep, a lot of imagination required with the "selective compression" of the wheels.
Thanks also for the mention of the book. I'll check it out. For me, the Milwaukee is a fascinating railroad.
I don't think tyhat there can be any doubt that the American Flyer 3116 is indeed based on the Milwaukee Road class EP-2 locomotive. The distinctive arched hoods were not used on any other major electric locomotive, and the arrangement of windows and doors in the cab section and the deep grooves representing the articulation of the centre section leave little doubt as to the intended prototype.
However, a two axle model of a locomotive with twelve driven axles and two trailing axles is an all time high in selective compression...
I don't have details of these locomotives except those provided in Jim Scribbins' excellent "Hiawatha Story" which states that 5 units, numbered E1 to E5 were built in 1919-1920. It has some nice B&W photos of these units.
These were known as "Bipolars" since the motors were rigidly attached to the axles and two field poles were fixed to the locomotive frame. While simple, the large magnetic gaps made these motors relatively inefficient, hence the need for twelve motors producing just 3180 continuous HP.
M636C
I recently bought an AF 3116. I wondered which locomotive the 3116 was modeled after, and think it might be the GE EP2. It looks pretty close, but I don't have any documentation that is the case. Anyone have more information or insight?
A 3116 in CM&SP colors might look good.
The photo definitely helps me figure out the placement. Thanks Gary.
Northwoods Flyer
The car you illustrate is from the second, 1937 train. The shape of the original clerestory can just be made out in this photo.
I didn't know that car had been preserved.
The original train had a more rounded observation:
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=ZavmIIRE95QC&pg=RA1-PT69&lpg=RA1-PT69&dq=B%26O+Royal+Blue+Train&source=bl&ots=DgghsfbfS-&sig=jVItuWHHXdPtjTsy6BUqWSprBuI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9UquT9aoEcShiQePt7GJCQ&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBjgU#v=onepage&q=B%26O%20Royal%20Blue%20Train&f=false
The link should be to page 101 of "The American Passenger Train".
The upper photo shows the former 1934 Royal Blue operating on the GM&O as the "Ann Rutledge". One of these two observation cars is in the National Railroad Museum in St Louis.
If you imagine this train in overall Royal Blue colour, that was the original streamlined "Royal Blue", which I think looks a lot like the Flyer models, apart from the windows.
The lower photo at the link shows the windows of the 1937 train, which are indeed in pairs.
here is the pilot of my dummy Type XX...
there are two 3/32" spacers under the coupler raising the top of the cruly-Q ~3/16" above the pilot deck. the attachment rivet is slightly flared beneath but left loose enough that the coupler turns very freely..
interesting that the hardrails terminate differently than yours, but without any holes in the deck , i've got to imagine this was how mine left the factory.
good luck; cheers...gary
overlandflyer Southern Colorado Marx Flyer: ... It is interesting that the geared drive wheels remain, though the main drive gear is not present. And apparently no coil, commutator, brush housing etc. The main thing I wondered about is whether the wheels and valve gear turn freely - it seems like maybe they would have a tendency to slide. ... in the example i have, aside from a few minor main driver wheel chips and one lead wheel with some rot, the chassis is in vg+ to exc condition and, though it could probably use a little more weight (and there is plenty of space for it), the basic mass of the locomotive itself is enough that the wheels and valve gear turn freely when being pulled. if you need any detail pictures such as the front coupler or trailing truck attachments, let me know. cheers...gary
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer: ... It is interesting that the geared drive wheels remain, though the main drive gear is not present. And apparently no coil, commutator, brush housing etc. The main thing I wondered about is whether the wheels and valve gear turn freely - it seems like maybe they would have a tendency to slide. ...
It is interesting that the geared drive wheels remain, though the main drive gear is not present. And apparently no coil, commutator, brush housing etc. The main thing I wondered about is whether the wheels and valve gear turn freely - it seems like maybe they would have a tendency to slide. ...
in the example i have, aside from a few minor main driver wheel chips and one lead wheel with some rot, the chassis is in vg+ to exc condition and, though it could probably use a little more weight (and there is plenty of space for it), the basic mass of the locomotive itself is enough that the wheels and valve gear turn freely when being pulled.
if you need any detail pictures such as the front coupler or trailing truck attachments, let me know.
cheers...gary
Hey Gary,
Thank you for your offer. A close-up picture of how the front coupler is attached to the dummy would be helpful.
Here is what I am working with:
I am most likely going to use a tab and slot coupler instead of the curly-q as this is what is on the tender of the lead engine.
Based on your comment about weight, I decided to leave in most of the innards of the motor.
Neither the lead nor trailing trucks have weights. Do you think they need them? I can get replacement trucks with weights from TTRP. I would need to buy truck wheels as it is. I will be ordering replacement main wheels from them as it stands now, so maybe the weighted trucks would be a good plan.
Thanks again for your willingness to help.
M636C,
Thanks for the information on the Royal Blue. I did some hunting with Google and came up with this photo. I assume it is of the observation from the Royal Blue that you mention in your post.
Here is the passenger coach from the Royal Blue set by Flyer. Does the window arrangement follow the pattern of the later cars?
And the baggage.
I thought I might one more point regarding the B&O "Royal Blue" and reproducing the photo one more time makes it easier to explain, if those not interested will forgive me for this failure of forum etiquette.
There were TWO streamlined Royal Blue trains at this period, one built 1934/35 and the one illustrated, dating from 1937.
The earlier train was built by American Car and Foundry in St Charles MO and was one of a pair of experimental trains, one made from aluminium alloy and one for Cor-Ten steel. The two trains were used initially for the "Royal Blue" and the "Abraham Lincoln" on the Alton Railroad, then controlled by B&O. The two trains looked the same, and I'm not sure which was steel and which was aluminium.
Both of these trains ended up on the Alton, which became part of the GM&O and later ICG. The observation from one of these trains is preserved in the museum in St. Louis.
The later train was rebuilt from heavyweight Pullman built cars, and this is the train illustrated with 5304 on the viaduct. The later train introduced the blue and grey colour scheme illustrated.
The earlier train consisted of lower profile eight wheel lightweight cars with shallow skirting. While the leading car on the second Royal Blue train was a combine, the earlier trains both had a full mail/baggage as the leading car. And the colour of the two earlier trains wasRoyal Blue, with just a gold stripe.
Hopefully, the point I'm making is becoming clear...
The earlier trains were very similar to the New Haven type cars modelled in both HO and 3/16" by the Gilbert controlled American Flyer. The windows on the B&O and Alton coaches were evenly spaced, not in pairs, and the ends of the cars were flat and not rounded. But the prototype cars were blue overall and very similar in style to the cars in the AF Royal Blue set.
I don't know if 5304 ever ran with the earlier set of "Royal Blue" cars although they would have been around together, and it would logically have hauled them on the "Royal Blue" if it was complete before the later set of cars was complete.
So not only was the locomotive a remarkably accurate reproduction of the prototype, but the cars in the set were a good representation of a a B&O train of the period.
I hope this is of interest.
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer ... It is interesting that the geared drive wheels remain, though the main drive gear is not present. And apparently no coil, commutator, brush housing etc. The main thing I wondered about is whether the wheels and valve gear turn freely - it seems like maybe they would have a tendency to slide. ...
Thank you for the great pictures Northwoods Flyer. They are very helpful.
It is interesting that the geared drive wheels remain, though the main drive gear is not present. And apparently no coil, commutator, brush housing etc. The main thing I wondered about is whether the wheels and valve gear turn freely - it seems like maybe they would have a tendency to slide.
The engine appears to be a 401 judging by the single rectangular window square window - though AF may have produced other models with that window design - and by the style of valve gear.
I recently picked up an engine that looks to be the right type (or close) and also looks to need quite a bit of repair (e.g. wheel replacement).
I'm hoping it still has the necessary parts intact. I won't worry too much about the trailing wheel configuration. I'll try getting away with removing as much of the innards as I can without breaking into the case and see what happens. And of course I'll have to figure out the coupling. Might be a fun project.
Thanks again for the pictures and your effort in making them.
Northwoods Flyer If I post some photos of the other steamliners that Flyer produced - Zephyr, Hiawatha, UP....etc., I wonder if we could come up with some additional prototype photos, information, and actual running footage. ... Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
If I post some photos of the other steamliners that Flyer produced - Zephyr, Hiawatha, UP....etc., I wonder if we could come up with some additional prototype photos, information, and actual running footage. ...
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
just Googling "Otto Kuhler" brings up a lot of his designs.
Thanks again for the information on prototype engines that Flyer used as a basis for their streamlined steamers. I went looking around the internet to see if I could find a film clip to link to of the real Royal Blue. I haven't spent much time looking, but so far I have been unsuccessful. I wonder if there is some news reel or archival footage languishing around somewhere.
If I post some photos of the other steamliners that Flyer produced - Zephyr, Hiawatha, UP....etc., I wonder if we could come up with some additional prototype photos, information, and actual running footage. We did that back on pages 4 and 9 with the Comet.
It looks like NWL has pretty much provided you with the information you were looking for. The example back on page 53 is indeed missing its rear truck. As far as alternatives to the actual dummy locomotive from the Double Header set I would imagine that any engine could be made into an unpowered engine by stripping out the works and figuring out a way to mount wheels so that it was more of a push/pull toy.
Here are a few more of the Type XX Dummy. I thought I would try to give you an idea of what Flyer did with it - without actually disassembling it.
Northwoods Flyer The prototype was designed by Otto Kuhler and must have been wonderful to see racing along the track. Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
The prototype was designed by Otto Kuhler and must have been wonderful to see racing along the track.
It appears that Gilbert, like the earlier Flyer, chose their streamlined prototypes poorly and B&O 5304 pictured above with its bullet nose was a one-off (like PRR 3768) and only lasted from 1937 until 1940 in its streamlined form. To add insult to injury, B&O 5304 was streamlined again post WW II to a different and somewhat more conservative design.
This may have influenced Gilbert in using the dies for "Freelanced" designs post WW II and not issuing the matching blue passenger cars post WW II. Of course B&O obtained the very first EMD E units for their crack passenger trains in 1937 and by 1946 these trains were predominantly diesel powered.
However, the reproduction of the streamlined Pacific was quite accurate, even if not widely used as an example of accuracy, like the NYC Hudson or the UP FEF.
Many early streamliners were like this, and the NYC 5344 "Commodore Vanderbilt" used by Lionel as a streamliner (and as the prototype for their 1/4" scale Hudson in non streamlined form) was re-clad like the later Twentieth Century streamlined J-3A which was the prototype for the later Flyer 2-4-4 streamliner.
Thanks again NWL.
I wondered what the extra screw holes were for. Now I know. I have a 420 coming. I'll have to see how she pulls without the extra weight.
The pictured 2-4-0 from page 53 must have been missing the rear t ruck.
No the weight you have is the standard weight for the trailing truck. See the photo below for the extra cab weight that I have seen with the correct 420 for the double header set. There is a screw on either side, below the cab window that holds this weight in place. I do not have the correct screws in mine, but the weight is original. I suspect that additional weight was required in the cabs of these engines, so that the weight of the larger double header set could be pulled.
As for the dummy engine, it should be a 2-4-4 configuration.
Thanks for the information NWL.
I know this is not the correct tender for the double header, but on the 420 engine, is this the trailing truck weight you referred to?
As for the dummy, going strictly by pictures in this thread on page 33 it looks to be a 2-4-4 . . .
, , ,while the one on page 53 looks to be a 2-4-0. . .
Maybe there was more than one wheel arrangement for the dummy?
The dummy locomotive is a frame, wheels, axles, power pick up, headlight, and leading and trailing trucks. There is no guts or armature installed in the frame. ie no windings of any sort or armature.
The first dummy engine that I purchased confused me as I bought a double header set minus the 420 locomotive and I could not figure out why there were two tenders and an engine with no guts in it.
One additional thing I have discovered is that the correct 420 for the double header set will have a big lead weight mounted above the trailing truck. This is something that not all 420s have.
Wonderful posts Northwoods Flyer. Terrific pictures and descriptions.
I am trying to keep up with you - to the extent of my interests - and find this thread to be the definitive source for Pre-war American Flyer information. I must say you have had a major impact on my wallet, but I am in no way complaining. I love this stuff.
I recently picked up an AF 420 and Vanderbilt tender from eBay. I had been looking for the tender and found one too pricey for my taste, then happened upon an engine and tender for a fraction of the price I had seen for the tender alone. eBay is interesting to say the least. Of course now I am interested in the double-headers. You have posted before on these so no need to repeat what you have posted before. I am interested in the "dummy" engine." I may not be able to find one in my price range on the internet, so would be interested if there are possible substitutions. The "dummy" obviously does not have a motor. How did AF accomplish this? Did they use a normally motored loco and disconnect the drive? Could you provide more detailed images on the dummy? That would be very interesting to me.
Thank you again, for this thread, and your continued contributions.
Thanks for the photos of the prototype engines folks. I like seeing how closely toy train manufacturers modeled the real thing.
Since we are on the topic of streamlined steamers; Gilbert had a streamlined steamer that they introduced into the product line in 1940. There were actually two streamlined steam engines introduced into the 3/16" O gauge line that year.
The #556 Royal Blue appeared in the 1940 catalog.
[quote user="M636C"
While there is no doubt that the NYC streamlined J-3a was the prototype for the later version of the Flyer streamliner, the PRR S-1 was only introduced in 1939 at the New York Word's Fair and could not have served as the prototype for the earlier Flyer streamliner.
There was an earlier PRR locomotive, a K-4 Pacific numbered 3768 (I think) which was streamlined by Raymond Loewy using the same basic styling as he later used on the much larger S-1. In particular, the Pacific had the Keystone emblem with wings either side on the domed nose as reproduced quite accurately on the Flyer streamliner, and had the multiple fine striping on the tender.
It was painted a dark metallic bronze colour, and the original black is probably the closest Flyer came to the real PRR colour. The gunmetal grey was always the colour of the NYC locomotive that the later version represented.
[/quote]
Aha!
Then it was this one then:
I sure can see now how that is much closer. Thanks for the correction and information.
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer I loved the pictures of the three types of AF streamlined engines. I especially loved the shot of all three on different tracks. Nice!! From photos I found on the Internet, it looks like they were patterned after the PRR S1 and NYC Streamlined Hudson (other than wheel arrangement of course). They must have been something to witness.
I loved the pictures of the three types of AF streamlined engines. I especially loved the shot of all three on different tracks. Nice!!
From photos I found on the Internet, it looks like they were patterned after the PRR S1 and NYC Streamlined Hudson (other than wheel arrangement of course).
They must have been something to witness.
overlandflyer i don't have access to my clockwork version right now, but i do have an electric motor Hiawatha on my shelf and you're right about this model; it sure is purdy! the good news is that there is no headlamp cowl missing from your piece. not sure if any of the c/w versions supported a battery/headlight, but on the electric version, there is merely a screw-base socket behind the hole and the globe of the headlight bulb is all that shows externally. if you had the headlight bracket, that hole in front would be filled with an attachment rivet. with my electric version (a whistling motor), there is also a lead weight (marked "W.O. 6027") attached by yet another screw up front sadly detracting from that nice wing logo. cheers...gary
i don't have access to my clockwork version right now, but i do have an electric motor Hiawatha on my shelf and you're right about this model; it sure is purdy!
the good news is that there is no headlamp cowl missing from your piece. not sure if any of the c/w versions supported a battery/headlight, but on the electric version, there is merely a screw-base socket behind the hole and the globe of the headlight bulb is all that shows externally. if you had the headlight bracket, that hole in front would be filled with an attachment rivet.
with my electric version (a whistling motor), there is also a lead weight (marked "W.O. 6027") attached by yet another screw up front sadly detracting from that nice wing logo.
I suspect you are right as after reading your comment I turned it upside down and there is no evidence of the rivet holes on both the body and the frame had ever being used for anything. I suspect that the rivet holes were put in all and depending on what was produced, added or subtracted, they were used as in your example and in mine, as a less expensive clockwork..nada.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
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