Here is a set from 1939. Its been featured a number of times on the thread.
Double Header Set from 1939 - Narrow Gauge (O gauge)
This is early in the Gilbert era of production. For several years they were using up the existing stock from the Chicago era.
The Double Header Set, also known as the Mountain Red Ball is shown on the cover of the 1939 catalog with double the number of some of the cars that actually came in the set.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Oh...No....Dangit!
Everytime I'm very close to bidding on the last parts of this set I need in an eBay auction Something brings more attention to this wonderfull set.........Hopefully I still have a chance at completing my set....(I'm Kidding)
I'm working on a Double headder set that just needs a trailing truck and correct tender for the dummy, and also a set of side rods for the lead locomotive.
I have the original boxes for the cars and dummy locomotive, I'm going to post photos after I get it all cleaned up and finished.
My engines were sold as a pair but were missing both of the tenders, my freight cars came as a set & had an empty box for the dummy engine, Hope I can track down some boxes for the tenders and lead locomotive, the boxes are all in rough shape but its still neat to have them.
I wonder how many production variations there are of this set, I guess it would be hard to tell since it was sold from left over stock over the year.
I've noticed that some redball sets have the gold decals on the tenders some are stamped in silver, I have also seen a set with mixed trim, copper on the dummy and nickel on the lead engine, I always figured gilbert was cleaning out the existing stock when they released this set, This is one of my favorite sets of all time, prewar or postwar, Flyer or Lionel.
Does anyone have a copy of the paper work that came with the set? I'd love a copy or good scan of the original instruction sheet for the Double Header set.
I'd love to see more photos of the double header set. Thanks for sharing it again!
-Jason
Hi Jason,
I hope you have gotten the pieces of equipment to complete your doubleheader set by now. I also hope this post doesn't create additional interest and competition.
Lets play "Let's Pretend". Afterall, isn't that what "playing" with tinplate trains is all about?
So, its 1940. Gilbert is still trying to sell off the leftover stock from the Chicago era production.
The Mountain Redball "Double Header" set sold well last year
But they still have a large inventory of unpowered engines sitting in the warehose, and there are oodles of #420s sitting around too. A clever young guy in the marketing department suggests that they put a "Heritage Line" in the back of the catalog and sell off the Chicago Flyer stock. It will be one page and the top of the line offering will be:
"The Heavy Hauler" - Triple Header
I'm putting it on my "must have" list for Christmas 1940.
Northwood and Company,
Fun news. I stepped into the world of tinplate with a Marx set, which I recently followed with a prewar Lionel set and an Ives 70 baggage car. The baggage car was equipped with prewar AF slot and tab couplers. Any idea as to A), how this might have happened since this car was produced years before the Ives bankruptcy, and B), where I might be able to acquire a set of these couplers?
Tinplatacis,
Congratulations on adding some pre war trains to your collection. There is no going back now.
I am not particularly knowledgeable about Ives trains but I do have a few in my collection. The Ives Train Society has a very good web site where I have done reading and research. It has a wealth of information. Your #70 baggage car likely comes from 1923-1925 from the brief reasearch that I did. Here is a link to an entry about the #70.
http://www.ivestrains.org/CD/O_Gauge/passengercars/60series/HTMLfiles/No60_6.htm
My guess is that a previous owner exchanged the original Ives coupler on your car for an American Flyer tab and slot coupler to allow it to run with their American Flyer trains. (There are several variations of tab and slot couplers that Flyer used. Schuweiler chronicles them in his Pre War O Gauge book)
I'm not sure which dealer has the reproduction tab and slot couplers for sale, but they show up on eBay quite frequently. You might even consider buying a junker car to get the couplers that are of the same vintage. Better yet, why not get some original or reproduction Ives "snake pull" couplers, which are also available on eBay, and add an Ives passenger consist to your collection.
Thanks for the information. I actually went for it because it had slot and tab couplers, am going to run it with my grandad's 495
Accessories - Automatic Danger Signals
Some time ago I received a question through the message system here on the site about the variety of automatic Danger Signals that American Flyer produced. I had to do some digging throught boxes but I pulled together some representatives.
The first example is the 2016 Automatic Danger Signal
This version was cataloged from 1922 through 1927. Schuweiler lists a second version of the 2016 that is the same except for the color which is orange.
The 2116 (A) Automatic Danger Signal was cataloged from 1928 through 1939.
Schuweiler shows this version in the Greenberg Guide, and also a version with a green standard. My example has a solid standard.
The same number is used in the 1936-1939 catalogs, but the Automatic Danger signal has been completely re-designed.
2116 (B)
I have a second example that came to me in an original box.
.
Notice the label on the box shows that it was made by A.C. GilbertCompany in New Haven Conn.
The Automatic Danger Signal also appeared in the Wide Gauge line from 1928 through 1936. (The 1936 catalog calls it the "New Automatic Bell Danger Signal".)
This is the 4116
The label on the box lists the company being in Chicago on Halsted Street.
The only real difference between the Narrow Gauge and Wide Gauge offerings was that a narrow gauge or wide gauge piece of straight track was included with the signal.
I assume that the 1936 version of the 4116 is the same as the 2116 with the rectangular base. I don't have a boxed example to verify it however.
Here is a family photo of the Automatic Danger Signal.
Greg,
I really enjoy looking at the photographs of your collection! It is like a museum of classic toy trains. I often go back through your pictures for research and entertainment. It is like a Smithsonion museum in your basement. Please continue!
Jim
Northwoods Flyer Accessories - Automatic Danger Signals The first example is the 2016 Automatic Danger Signal This version was cataloged from 1922 through 1927. Schuweiler lists a second version of the 2016 that is the same except for the color which is orange. Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
Northwoods,
Your post got me to thinking and I had to root around in the train vault to find this, but here is the orange version of the 2016.
Switching gears slightly, here are some unusual colored lithograph cars c. 1918. 1108 baggage, 1107 American Flyer Coach, and 1107 B&O coach, all in a grayish-blue color. Very unusual coloration and the thought is possibly there was some sort of error in the coloration / lithograph process on a run of these cars.
For your viewing pleasure
NationWideLines,
Your post prompted me to go back and take a closer look at my examples of the signal.
Here are three of them:
The signal on the left is the one that came in the 4116 box. I was mistaken about the standard of the green signal on the right in the earlier post. What I thought was a solid standard is actually pierced on both of the examples.
The boxed 4116 on the left has a larger bell.
All of my examples of the bell, no matter what the size are marked
1877
Edwards
The green standard example has the solid standard on two sides, but the smaller bell. Oh how I wish we could ask someone how decisions were made at the factory.
My understanding is that the bells are door bells from the 20's and 30's. This likely explains why the different mechanisms, as Flyer was limited to what they could get. Not sure why the difference in the masts.
I think we found the source of the bells for the signal.
Apparently they are still in business:
https://www.edwards-signals.com/index.cfm?Level=50&PG=21
vintage flyer,
Check on eBay. There is one there right now. It isn't cheap, but it looks like it is almost the same bell.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Edwards-13-2AB-Lungen-Bell-General-Door-Office-Signaling-Bell-Chime-1-3-4-/221763318636?hash=item33a21fb36c:g:E9sAAOSwrklVOTuM
I would guess you could check old hardware stores for old stock, but that could be a long shot.
I want to congratulate you, even if it is a bit early. Nearly 8 years have gone by since your first post on January 22, 2008!
By the time American Flyer celebrated its 8-year anniversary in 1915, the company had experienced many changes: they had recently relocated to their 3rd location, a factory on South Halstead Street, where they would remain until they sold out to AC Gilbert in 1938; WO Coleman II was running the company, having recently taken over from his father; and they were into their second generation of lithograph cars, having eliminated the "Chicago" cars from their lineup in 1914.
Yet there were still many milestones to come for American Flyer during the prewar era: 1918 would see American Flyer start producing electric powered trains; 1925 would see them introduce Wide Gauge (Standard Gauge for all you Lionel readers); they would celebrate their 20th Anniversary in 1927; and they would produce some of their most desired trains (by at least collectors today) in the 1928-1932 era, including the Flying Colonel, Legionaires, and Mayflower sets. They would also experiment with many different items such as: floor toy airplanes; toy typewriters; toy cash registers; and for many years would be the distributor for Structo Toys (which WO Coleman reportedly had some ownership interest in???)
I see the future of toy train collecting as potentially troubling times, as many of the older collectors are passing away and significant knowledge is being lost to future generations. This blog is one of the ways to keep this knowledge fresh and available to newer collectors.
Congrats!
Here are some pictures of the 1915-1916 era items from American Flyer
Thank you for the good wishes. It has been a great time hosting this thread. Your contributions have helped to preserve the information that you talk about in your post and we have discovered some new information too. This thread is what it is because of the contributions of many people.
I am continually amazed by the variations and examples of equipment that you find. The photos just above are good examples. To think, they have been around for a century.
Thanks for reminding me that the 8th anniversary of the thread is fast approaching. I'd better start working on the entry for that day.
Thanks Again
American Flyer Narrow Gauge
1932
Set #1350 The New Paul Revere
The set has a #3316 Engine and Tender combination, 2 #3171 Pullmans and a #3172 Observation.
I was fortunate to get the boxes with the cars
That is a nice representation of the set, but I think your engine dates to a couple of years later, as evidenced by the tall drivers, which were also used on the 1936 Hudson. The earlier engines in 1932 would have had the smaller drivers, which were found on all of the engines of that era.
The cars with the brass plates look very nice.
NWL
Northwoods Flyer Hi Jason, I hope you have gotten the pieces of equipment to complete your doubleheader set by now. I also hope this post doesn't create additional interest and competition. Lets play "Let's Pretend". Afterall, isn't that what "playing" with tinplate trains is all about? So, its 1940. Gilbert is still trying to sell off the leftover stock from the Chicago era production. The Mountain Redball "Double Header" set sold well last year But they still have a large inventory of unpowered engines sitting in the warehose, and there are oodles of #420s sitting around too. A clever young guy in the marketing department suggests that they put a "Heritage Line" in the back of the catalog and sell off the Chicago Flyer stock. It will be one page and the top of the line offering will be: "The Heavy Hauler" - Triple Header I'm putting it on my "must have" list for Christmas 1940. Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
That Tripple Headder is too cool! Thanks for posting it.....You might even want to think about putting a big hudson at the front...WOW! would that be something to see run with a long string of cars behind it!
Yes, I finally aquired the last tender, trailing trucks & misc. parts I needed to complete my double header set, I also found a decent 420 from the right year with the correct details to go with my set. I paid alot more than I wanted to but it was worth it to end a long frustrating search for that engine.
I still have a lot of cleaning, straightening de-rusting to do to make up a presentable set, I'm trying to uses as many unrestored original paint parts as I can, I have some freight cars with very nice original paint but rusted worn trim, trucks & wheels and i have some badly dented & scratched up cars with nice trim and trucks, I still need to get the correct AF rivets before I open up tabs, to swap arround and re-assemble one nice clean car from a few different parts cars. .....Its a long term project but at least I now have all the missing pieces to the puzzel.
I did notice 4 things about my original 401 dummy engine that will help spot a fake or recreation of this engine from a more common 410.
1. On my original there is no hole in the top of the boiler shell where the small rectangle weight is rivited to the underside of the boiler shell
2. There is no cast weight welded inside the steam chest, it is hollow.
3. The pin for the tender draw bar is mounted facing up for the correct tender's draw bar. The 410 points down, the 401 faces up
4. The chassis for the 401 dummy frame is rivited together without the laminated plates for the field part of the motor, a real dummy should have no sign of ever having a motor installed or rivits removed.
It would be a heck of a trick to fake a 401 shell & frame with out welding up the extra holes, removing the cab weights and swapping the riveted tender pin upside down, and removing the motor from the frame.
Hope this helps anyone looking to identify an original dummy if they want to build a red ball double header set from parts or are looking at a set for sale.
January 22, 2008 - January 22, 2016
Celebrating
8
years
Pre War American Flyer Pictures
It amazes me how quickly the time passes between these annual entries. As I look back at all of the posts that have been made to this thread during the year I am greatful to everyone who has taken the time to make comments, ask questions, answer questions, add information and most of all post photos. I am even more amazed when I look back over the wealth of information that we have gathered here over the past 8 years. Each time that I think we are running out of things to post I find something new to post, or someone asks a question that sends me off to do research. I can always count on one of the frequent contributors to find something new to post. Again, let me offer my thanks.
Most of all I want to thank Classic Toy Trains and Kalmbach Publishing for allowing this thread to run for so long.
Now, on to a new year of photos and shared discoveries and information.
One of the challenges in collecting American Flyer equipment is discovering and recognizing variations. So to give you a little practice in sharpening your powers of observation, here are photos of 8 variations of the 9 1/2 inch Narrow Gauge tank car. There are 8 here and amazingly there are many more - but those will have to wait for another year.
The Discoverer - Re-Discovered!
The Discoverer set from 1930 has been re-discovered!
The Discoverer, set 1324, was cataloged in 1930 and 1931; however, the set underwent a significant change between the two years. In 1930 it came with the short-lived 3109 engine that has the die-cast hoods on each end and in 1931 the set came with the 3116 engine with sheet-metal hoods on each end.
Although the catalog artwork for 1931 shows the same artwork shown below, it specifically lists engine 3116 instead of engine 3109.
According to the Greenberg's guide, the 3109 engines were "top-heavy and prone to tip over or yaw from side to side when rolling along". I cannot say I have ever had a problem with the 3109 tipping over or yawing when running, but they are prone to having their cast hoods decay and fall apart. Apparently, that is what happened to the original engine in this set, as the box has notes from 1959 indicating that the original engine had broken and an incorrect replacement engine had been put with the set.
I am fortunate enough to have a nice 3109 with original hoods to put back with the set, which I have done.
This set has answered a couple of questions about American Flyer that have nagged at me for a while.
1st - when was the transition from black trucks to gray trucks, and this set has both a gondola with black trucks and remaining cars with gray trucks, indicating that they must have been using up old stock in 1930 and transitioning to gray trucks and black framed cars.
2nd - Over the years I have seen Flyer curved track with both 3 and 4 ties per section. I have always wondered about the use of 4 ties per section. This set came with original track that is in mint condition that has 4 ties per curved section.
balidasHi guys! Did American Flyer ever produce 027 profile track or was it all O gauge? Is there any known issues with running prewar American Flyer on 027? Thanx.
American Flyer did not produce any O27 profile track.
I do not know of any issues with running Flyer O on O27 and for a number of years I ran mine on Gargraves O track (which is probably more similar to O27 than Flyer track) and the only issues I had were with switch frogs, but I do not think you would have problems if you are using Lionel switches.
Ok. I'll keep the possible issue with switches in mind. I figured that since all the pix show the various cars posing on Fast track & in my mind Fast track being fairly equivalent to 027, I didn't think there'd be any problems. Thank you.
The issue I had with the switch frogs, is related to the engines only, as the earlier steam engines and electric boxcab engines have wide flanges on the wheels, which modern trains do not have. The switch frogs on gargraves and ross custom switches (and I cannot honestly say I know about fast-track switches) were not made to accomodate such wide flanges on the wheels and the engines would de-rail when going through the switches. I ended up getting rid of my switches and then had no problems with the track with the prewar trains.
All of the track on the Blueboard Central is Fastack. The layout was intended to be a place to display the collection and give the trains a place to operate. Early in its development I had hoped to have a few sidings and at least one passing siding. I bought just one manual Fastrack switch to test how the pre war Flyer engines would handle the switch. As Nationwidelines discovered with the other brands of switches, the pre war engines don't like the design of Fastrack switches. Some of the steamers might handle them but the electrics take a hard bump going through and derail. Because I like Fastrack (no separations, no shifting in over 8 years even though the track is just laying on the styrofoam base, and good conductivity throughout the track) I decided to not use switches. The two loops are independent and have no sidings. That isn't a problem for me because I just run trains; I don't try to do any real operations, and I can't think of any pre war accessories that interact with cars sitting on a track. I liked the looks of the Fastrack grade crossing but I discoverd that the engines don't like that piece of track either; so back to the hobby shop it went.
Any of my photos here on the thread will show equipment on Fastrack even though I can't use any switches. Some day I might redo the layout so that I can have a loop of 5 rail dual gauge track so that I can run some Wide gauge trains in the collection.
I assume that the pre war O gauge engines work with orginal pre war tubular track switches. I have some, but I don't remember using them since I was a child and the O gauge ran under the Christmas tree. One of these days I should set up an oval with some switches to see how they handle it. Some of the larger Flyer engines like the Hiawatha and the Hudson needed wider radius curves (and 4 rail track if you were going to use the whistles) but to my knowledge they never produced switches for the 4 rail track. I wonder if the larger engines would go through the switches of the time?
Getting back to the question of track, like Northwoods indicated, I have found that I do not necessarily need switches on my layout either. Within the last year, I redid the track on my layout and got rid of the gargraves O gauge track and switched to Lionel tubular track. I am sure I could have put some switches in, but I like the trains to run and prewar trains do not uncouple easily, so there was no real reason that I had to have switches in my track plan.
I am currently running 1 loop of standard gauge track and 3 loops of O gauge track, with the curves on the wide gauge loop being 72" radius with a full section of straight track at the center of each curve, then 1 loop of O with 72" radius, a loop of O with 54" radius, and the last loop of O being the standard Lionel O radius track.
I do admit to liking the new Lionel track a bit better than the gargraves track, but the decision to re-do the track was really unrelated to the type of track and was related more to the age of the track I had and some other issues.
The Annual American Flyer Christmas story is posted eslewhere in its own thread, but as usual I like to add it to this thread too.
Danny loved everything about Christmas. He liked the preparations for the big day itself and he loved it when the preparations were all done and he could sit back and enjoy the way the house looked and smelled. This was one of those times.
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