AF53
Ray,
Thanks for posting the photos of your train. The pieces are in remarkably good condition. I enjoyed seeing the video of the train running. Its always nice to see these 80+ year old toys still operating.
I think that you met your collecting goal quite well. If you were hoping to have a train from each decade of American Flyer production, you certainly picked a beautiful train as an example from the 1930s. I think you also found a way to show many of the variations in options that were available in Wide Gauge all in one train. The styles of car are good representations, you have brass air tanks and truss rods, flex trucks and fixed trucks, brass tags and decals all represented. You covered just about all of it.
Now if you decide to expand your Wide Gauge collection you have the beginnings of a Pocahontas set, a Warrior or American Legion Set, and a Late Warrior set. I look at my collection as a way to educate others about American Flyer production and you have a nice way to illustrate many of the variations. Just be careful that you don't end up like I have - collecting one of everything. That isn't how I started out, but it sure seems to be the way I am heading.
I think that you should do a post with all of your examples in chronological order. And we have to find a new American Flyer collecting goal for you don't we? I have a few ideas.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
I base my information as to your cars being a mix of Pocahontas and early Warrior cars on personal observations over the years. I have a Pocahontas set and the cars have air tanks, green truck frames, and Pocahontas plates above the windows. I have also had an early Warrior set and that set of cars differed from the Pocahontas set due to the gray truck frames and different style of trucks (look at your cars as they have different truck styles), trusses instead of tanks, and American Flyer plates above the windows.
As for the 1932 Century set, I am going to have to check with a friend who is more into standard gauge and get back to you. In reviewing the 1932 catalog description I see that it describes the 4340 series of cars, but not a color. I also see that the 1933 catalog description, it states "latest color is light blue and red roof" but shows the same artwork. I can tell you that the original flyer catalog artwork was often used for several years and the actual word description can be more accurate than the catalog artwork. I know I have seen a 1933 century set with the blue cars and red roofs and that is the set I was familiar with.
Nationwidelines Ray, I browsed through the Doyle book when it first came out and decided not to buy it because it was a very poor quality reference for pre-war items, as far as information quantity and quality. NWL
I browsed through the Doyle book when it first came out and decided not to buy it because it was a very poor quality reference for pre-war items, as far as information quantity and quality.
NWL
If I could add my 2 cents.. I would agree that Doyle's book is a big disappointment as far as Prewar American Flyer. Especially the Gilbert O. They could have done so much, but ended up offering very little and what's there is sometimes inconsistent with the facts. Prices are not realistic either. I wonder where he got his price references?
Lover of all things Gilbert, truly a man ahead of his time.
NWL - Thanks for the info. Can I ask what is your source of reference? We all know the Flyer info from the early years has been known to be contradicting at best.
I don't have the Greenberg Wide Gauge book so maybe someone else has more details as all info is helpful.
I looked through my catalogs and the 1930-31 "Lone Scout" and the 1931 "Stadium" sets both had the aqua blue cars with red roofs.
I agree somewhere along the way there was some restoration with two of my cars. I did think it was interesting that the #4341 Pullman car was stamped on the bottom.
After further review, the stamped #4341 is the only car that has no plates. You have to look close but they are transfers?
All of the bottoms have identical holes and slots making it easy to replace or repair the air tanks/trusses and the grey/green trucks. I'm tempted to leave it alone since they do look good, but someday you never know.
The catalog from 1929-30 had the Warrior set and the cars are shown with air tanks. The first year I can see when the passenger cars have the trusses instead of air tanks is in 1931.
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Your passenger cars appear to be mismatched and I am not sure that they would be from the Century set. The baggage and observation cars are from a Pocahontas set, as evidenced by the green truck frames, air tanks, and Pocahontas brass plates. The other two cars would be from an early Warrior set, as evidenced by the gray trucks, trusses instead of air tanks, and American Flyer plates above the windows.
I believe that the Century set came with 3 cars that are finished in an aqua blue color with red roofs.
Over the past half year I've set a goal to complete my goal in acquiring an American Flyer set from each decade. The only decade I was missing was the 1930's. I decided it would also be my first Wide Gauge set.
I normally buy the Locomotive first and then look to see what set(s) it belongs to. I found a Locomotive in nice condition, #4694 (Type IV) 1931- 1934 and was rubber stamped "4692XR/C on the underside of the pilot. It was accompanied with a #4963 Vanderbilt tender.
So, here from 1932, set No. 1492 "Century".
The tender is followed by #4340 Club Car.
Next is the #4341 Pullman Car.
Next is #4343 Dining Car.
Last is the #4342 Observation Car.
My only concern is on the cars #4341 & #4343. Although #4341 is stamped on the bottom, my only reference material is from Standard Catalog of American Flyer Trains by David Doyle. And in his book they should have a different name plate, color trucks and air tanks. My guess here is that somewhere down the road some restoration was done. The only thing I need do is to replace some interior lights, but it still looks great on the tracks.
Here's a video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_s_xagr6Ro
I would like to thank everyone who replied to my request for information on the American Flyer 4849 Train Set. In the replies, several questions were asked and I would like to answer them. 1.) Have I run the set? No, I am in the process of turning my second floor above my garage into my train room, two years running. Not much was done the first year, but this winter I have made good progress. I am hoping by the end of the years or by the end of next winter, it will be ready to have the trains un-packed and to start on building a small layout to run my trains on. Another comment was on the condition of the set. The set picture I took shows only one side of the set. The 1120 cars are the same on both side, but the locomotive looks to have been exposed to smoke on the other side. The stamping and trim paint is faint and black paint finish is dull. I thought I would try to work with it to see if I could clean and polish it up a bit. However when I was looking over the locomotive I accidentally scraped my thumb nail across the top of the locomotive and left a scrach on the top of the locomotive, so I think I will leave it as is for now. 2.) Do all three cars match? Yes, the wear and the age cracking of the lithograph decoration on the 1120 cars are the same on all three. Also the wear where the cars are stored in the box is the same. You can see where the couplers have worn and scraped the separators as they where remove and put back into the box. Thanks again to everyone.
strainst
Wide Gauge St Paul style Electric outline Locomotive #4635
The next number in the sequence that American Flyer cataloged is #4635
I guess the worst possible option, which I doubt is the case for StrainsT, is that an unscrupulous dealer found a nice set and put it with a box that had a number on it, not caring if it was correct or not.
I just state this, because I have seen it before. It is easier to tell when this occurs if the setbox has a regular Flyer cataloged set number and the contents of the box do not match the description. I have also seen sets like the Bluebird set, which come with a station, tunnel, and signal, in a flat setbox that fits only the engine and cars, with no number, yet the seller is calling an original boxed set.
Some of the flat out worst cases I have seen are a train in a setbox, but the train is comprised of a steam engine/tender from the early 1920s, cars from the early 1930s, and a setbox from the middle 1920s. This "original boxed set" was for sale with a crazy asking price.
I guess I am ranting, because I hate to see this practice. I have fallen for it before and I know that others have as well. It can be very difficult to tell in some cases and I always try to consult my list of cataloged sets prior to making a questionable purchase. However, in the heat of the moment, it is easy to make mistakes.
Northwoods,
One thing to remember about American Flyer, They often sold sets without transformers and sold the transformer as an extra, separate sale item. If you look back at the catalogs, the descriptions often have a recommended transformer or say transformer not included.
Therefore, I would not say that an extra car was inserted in place of the transformer in StrainsT's set. My 1101 set, which is a beautiful boxed set, does not have a transformer and never did.
I would also guess that Flyer did not package sets based on different regions in the country. Rather they packed them for what the buyer's wanted or simply packed special sets and then offered them to the buyers as is.
I know that the Wards catalogs for 1929/1930 differed between the different regions in the country, but that was likely due to what Wards was offering in those areas, rather than specific orders from Flyer for those regions.
StrainsT,
You have a great looking set there. I always wonder where items in this kind of great condition have spent the last 60-80 years. Nationwidelines has a great looking engine too.
Just a thought about your set being from Wards. I discovered something interesting about Wards when I was trying to find their catalog illustrations for the 7010 and 7011 (1929-1930). While Wards was a national retailer, they still produced catalogs for specific regions. I got a catalog for Wards from 1929, which upon further investigation is from Albany. I have seen other scans of the trains offered by Wards the same year from other distribution centers that have different train sets. So with the information from the Greenberg guide and Nationwideline's information about the type of numbering/identification system that Wards used, I would make an educated guess that your set is from Wards and from one of its regions. It appears to follow the numbering system that they used. Flyer might have provided different sets for different areas.
One thing that I found interesting is that your set has no transformer, but three cars. I wonder if someone added the third car in the place where the transformer should be. Do the cars appear to match as far as wear?
Doing research on the equipment in my collection is one of the things that I enjoy most about this hobby.
I have reproduction Wards 1922 catalog, which shows the set 48 C 10, but it only shows it with two cars and not the three like you have.
Another likely retailer would have been Butler Brothers, which was a wholesaler. They would number Flyer sets with their own numbers; however, I know that their numbering system does not match the number you have. In the 1920s, they were typically numbering their sets similar to this: 1F xxxx with the 4 x's representing a number.
Your set likely dates to 1923 and after, because the 1922 sets used a smaller motor that was installed in a cast iron frame and then used the same body.
I have a 1922 set that I purchased from the original owner's daughter. It is interesting in that it came with a blue 1107 and 1108 cars, both lettered for Baltimore and Ohio.
I also have a similar set to yours that came in a box marked 1101, with two green 1120 Seatlle cars.
Wow! Great find.
I have some info on this that may shed some additional light.
The catalogs from 1922-23 and 1923-24 show a set number "Train No. 1101" and describes it as "Electric Type Locomotive No. 1095 without headlight, length 6 3/4 inches, two No 1120 Pullman cars length 5 1/2 inches each, length of train 21 inches, eight pieces of track including on track terminal and Rheostat, length of track 82 inches.
The cars appear the same as your with the exception instead of "Seattle" it say's "Pullman".
These early Flyer sets were often pieced out and produced into different sets. I also have a set from 1926? that you won't find in any catalog but closely resembles one from 1926.
Have you had the opportunity to run this set yet? It looks in great condition.
Happy Fifth Anniversary Northwoods Flyer. I look forward to each and every post I get in my email.
I am looking for some information on a American Flyer train set I picked up this month. The train set consist of a Am Flyer 1101 A.F.M.C. locomotive and three 1120 Seattle passenger cars. When I looked up this locomotive in Alan Schuweiler's American Flyer Prewar O Gauge book, I found out this locomotive is listed as uncataloged, from 1924, and that it was included in a Montgomery Wards Catalog No. 100, in train set 48G 7. That set had a 1101 locomotive and two 1108(?) passenger cars. I wonder if he meant 1107 passenger cars as I am not aware of any 1108 passenger cars, just 1108 baggage cars. The lid on my train set just has an end label. Just to the left of the label is a faint stamp which looks like 4849. Is there anyone who follows this forum who has knowledge of Montgomery Ward train sets? Is 4849 a number they would have assigned to one of their train set? I seem to remember in some of the earlier posts, someone had some of the early Montgomery Ward catalogs. Have you seen this set in one of your catalogs? Of could this set be from another store like G. Sommers & Co.? Any information would be greatly appreciated.
This is the train set.
Here is the labeled end of the box.
A close up of the stamp 4849, it is not real clear but its the best I could get with my camera.
Remember when asked what his favorite train was that he owned, he answered, the next one I buy!
STRAINST
Wide Gauge St Paul style Electric outline Locomotives
We haven't had much Wide Gauge equipment posted here for a while so I thought I would revisit it. I picked up a few new examples to add to the Northwoods Flyer Collection so I thought I would do a few Wide Gauge posts. The #4006 a few posts back is one of the recent additions. There are a few posts back on pages 12 through 14 and scattered throughtout the thread.
American Flyer produced their Wide Gauge line of equipment for a relatively short time - roughly 10 years. They produced some memorable trains in that time
They introduced the St Paul style electrics starting in 1928 and during the run of this style of locomotive they cataloged 5 different engine numbers.
In 1930 and 1931 they cataloged the #4633
Greg - Thank you for starting this great thread and maintaining it. It's my favorite, and it's what inspired me to branch away from my roots as an "S Gauge" fan. Over the past few years I've collected more PreWar treats than I would have imagined!
Again, a well deserved thanks!
Happy Fifth Anniversary!
Well folks we have added 21 pages to this thread in the last year. I just spent a delightful time skimming through those pages to remind myself of what folks had contributed. Its an amazing array of information.
There are a number of new contributors, and once again let me say ! The postings this past year include: repair projects, sources for parts, documentation of variations and some very unusual items, loads of photos of #1107 and #1108 passenger cars, lighting projects, identification of the prototypes upon which engines and cars are based, excellent information on A.F. clockwork (pages and pages worth), a concentration of information on PreWar 3/16 O gauge equipment, accessory variations, and questions and answers.
I am amazed by the wealth of information that folks have contributed. I appreciate the willingness that folks have shown to share their knowledge and expertise in so many areas. More than anything I am gratified by the good will that is shown. It reinforces for me the belief that train folks of all kinds are some of the best folks around. I've had the priviledge to communicate with many folks through the thread. I look forward each day to see who has posted and what new question or contribution has been added.
Thank You again to all who contribute information or questions. And thank you to those who come to read. I hope that you find this thread as entertaining and as pleasent a way to spend your hobby time as I do. Many many thanks to Kalmbach for providing the forums and for allowing this thread to run as long as it has.
So lets get started on year 6. I can only imagine what visual delights are in store for us, and what new information will be added. I'm looking forward to making the aquaintance of new Flyer enthusiasts as well. I wonder what folks who discover the thread for the first time think of the challenge of reading 75 pages of American Flyer delights.
In honor of this fifth anniversary let me share a photo from the early days of the thread that shows 5 different sizes of enameled passenger cars.
You might have luck with a "closed frog" switch. On these, there are no narrow flangeways or guardrails that would interfere with the wide-wheel engines. A Lionel 1024 is one example. Hirth Hobbies made some wide-radius hi-rail-looking ones some years ago, too.
Northwoods, any positive contribution I could make to this thread is small compared to the great benefit and enjoyment I have received from it. It has been a wonderful wellspring of information, ideas and helpful folks.
In regard to switches, I hope to find a switch that will work for all of my tinplate. That includes American Flyer, Lionel, Marx, JEP, Hornby and Bing. My layout is O gauge Lionel track with a 42" min diameter curve. The Lionel 022 switches worked OK for the AF, JEP, Hornby and Lionel locomotives I ran, but stopped the pre-war Marx locomotives dead. I tried to modify an O22 switch by widening and lowering the "ramp" but it still had problems. The K-line switches (375, 376) seemed a little bumpier, and again would not pass Marx locos. I am going to try Marx and AF switches which will need a system of pin adaptation as these switches are O27 I believe - though I have read that AF at one point made O gauge switches. Once (and if) I find a switch that works, I will try a representative range of locomotives and report back on this thread.
KEV, my computer does not have a problem loading and navigating this thread. It may load a little slower on weekends, but that may just be weekend internet traffic. I use Mozilla Firefox if that has any bearing. A few years back I had problems with IE, but that may also have been my computer or service provider - both since changed.
UPDATE: Thank you Nickaix for the suggestion. I think I may have found the solution - at least for my set-up. My layout is comprised of two independent loops, each with two sidings. The sidings are not really part of an operational scheme other than to hold trains that are not running on the loops. I could just have track along the loops that are not connected with switches, but I wanted to see if I could find a switch that was functional, but would not interfere with the mainlines. So my main objective was a switch that would easily pass my range of locomotives. So far I have had success with the old-style Marx manual switch. I don't need remote as the remote control would only be a few inches from the switch, so it is just as easy to throw it by hand.
Since the Marx Manual switch is designed for O27, I had to do some slight modification. Several folks suggest using O27 pins and crimping the O gauge track. I thought this might weaken the electrical connection, so I used O gauge pins after carefully prying and enlarging the rail end openings on the switch. This was no problem at all. I also cut and placed a foam layer under the switch to bring it up to the height of the O gauge track. So far I have run an AF 3107, AF 1270, AF Hudson, AF 641, AF 9900 (cast), Ives 3250, Marx 999, several Marx Diesels, Lionel 249E, Hornby 8150, Hornby 9201, JEP 8001, and a small JEP steamer through the switch (set to straight). All passed through smoothly with no hesitation. I don't know the radius of the Marx switch turnouts and haven't run anything through the switch set to turnout, but this is not really a major concern for me - but I will try it when I get the sidings hooked up.
The lionel 1024 switch suggested by Nickaix might work as well, though it looks to me from the picture that there is a narrower space for the wide Marx wheels to pass through than with the Marx switch (and maybe a large center rail gap).
Lionel 1024 switches. I'll try them out when I get a pair.
Marx Manual switch (I think 608 and 609)
American Flyer #2 manual switches might work also, I haven't tried them yet. The earliest AF switches look to have too much of a gap for the center rail to work well.
So for my layout, I will go with the Marx switches on my main lines. There are also remote switches that may work, but I don't have need for remote operation.
Craig
Thanks for the answers,
I have original AF prewar track and switches but I don't run my 1935 AF train that much. It sits on a static display in the living room. I am in the process of adding an additional 6' x 10' to my layout and would like to lay something down on it that I can run anything on. The old Prewar AF, Marx, Post war Lionel and modern Lionel.
As of now I am running Lionel 027 profile with 042, 054, and Marx 034"R track with Lionel 027 42R switches.
Joined 1-21-2011 TCA 13-68614
Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL.
I have also had a lot of trouble with derailing of prewar trains on modern switches. I've had the best luck with old K-Line 0-42 switches (K-376 for the right hand switch). I found that both Coleman and Gilbert 3 rail switches tended to derail many locomotives (the front rollers sometimes caught on the switches, and they would rip off the sliding shoes on Lionel operating cars). I haven't tried the Fastrack switches since I wanted 0-42 track. But with all makes of American and European pre-war trains, the "0-gauge" is nominal at best. I can get most cars to go through the K-Line switches by cutting the proper length of plastic soda straw on the interior of the axles to keep the inner rims wheels at the right gauge to navigate switches (i.e., spread the rims as far apart as you can and still navigate the 0-gauge track, especially curves). You can cut the straw to length and remove the wheels to slip it on, or in cut to the right length, slit it down the length, and pop it on without removing the wheels. However, if the locomotive wheels are too close together, or if they are like some Marx locos with the wheel gears the same diameter as the wheels, you probably won't be able to find a "universal" switch or use a modern switch..
I experimented with switches on my first layout, on which I used Gargraves track. I found that the wider wheel flanges on most Flyer pre-war engines did not make it over the frogs on the switches, which are designed for narrow flanges. This limits out all Flyer pre-war boxcab electrics and early steam engines. The only pre-war engines that would go through the switches without derailing were the late, larger steam engines, which have narrow flanges.
Mind you, this problem only cropped up with the Gargraves style switches. I am guessing that original flyer pre-war switches should work with all pre-war flyer engines. So if you are using tubular style track similar to the pre-war track you should have no problems with switches.
When I rebuilt my layout at my current home, I removed all of the switches and built the loops without switches.
Thanks Northwoods I was afraid you were going to tell me something bad about switches. I want something I can run all of my trains on and don't want to have to build for each type. Starting to think I can't get there from here.
Kev,
I am one of the last persons who would know anything about how this site loads. It loads just as quickly on my PC as any of the other threads. Maybe one of the folks who keeps this thing running can answer your question. Sorry I can't be of help with that.
As far as PreWar Flyer running on Fastrack....All of my engines and rolling stock run quite well on Fastrack as long as there are no switches. Very few of the engines like the switches or any of the other special track sections, like the road crossings. The engines tend to hit and bounce when they go over the Fastrack switches often causing a derailment. That is one of the reasons that I designed the layout as a folded dogbone without switches. The Blueboard Central's main purpose is to give me a place to run the trains and display them in running action. I am not concerned about operations that might mimic anything prototypical.
Does anyone know why this tread almost always locks up and always slows down my PC?? Is it too big or long or something? It is the only tread I have this kind of issue with on the forum and it has been that way since I started reading it two years ago????
P.S. how do your pre war AF run on the lionel Fastrack? They don't work very well on my 027 track so I am looking for something they will work on other than their original track I have.
Tks,
Craig,
Thanks for giving such a great description and visual record of your work on these projects. Please keep us posted on any new projects and additonal progress on what you have already shared.
4006 Wide Gauge Hopper
The 4006 Hopper was cataloged from 1931 through 1936. It tends to be a bit more difficult to find than the other Wide Gauge freight cars.
Thanks NWL. That sounds like a good possibility. I'll give it a try.
UPDATE: Yep, just the screw alone did it. When I looked in the screw hole I could see bare copper. I pushed a length of heat shrink as far as it would go along one of the lighting wires. I also injected some silicone into the screw hole. So now I can use all three screws.
The rotting insulation on the internal motor wires makes further problems possible, but for now it is running. Thanks for your help.
The problem may be that the insulation on the wire from the power pickup to the bottom of the windings may have deteriorated and when the screw is inserted it touches bare wire from the power pickup.
I have seen this wire insulation deteriorate and break apart before. You may try taking the armature out and examining the lower part of the motor. I would take the armature out and then put the problem screw in without the brush plate and see if it rubs or makes connection with something.
Well y'all gave me motivation to keep working on this motor.
NWL I did bypass the reverse mechanism without luck. The problem is that there is continuity between the rollers and frame - so there is a short somewhere.
Thank you for the info on the armature strainst. The continuity is between the sections but not between the sections and the armature shaft. I checked my other 9900 motor (waiting to be rewheeled) and it is the same. That is a relief.
So, back to experimentation.
Here is the weird part. When the brush plate is removed there is no continuity between the rollers and frame. Put the brush plate back on and the continuity (short) is back. I had originally thought the armature was shorted and was allowing current to pass between hot (roller) and ground (frame). But this is not the problem. The armature is fine. I looked over the brush plate carefully and could see no obvious defects, but there must be. I then tried mounting the brush plate with just one of the three screws and found an interesting issue. If I don't use the bottom screw, the continuity is not present and . . .voila . . the motor runs when power is put to it. What a sweet sound! Put the bottom screw in and it is shorted again.
So now I have insulated the bottom of the brush plate with a piece of electrical tape, left the bottom screw out, and tightened the top two screws. I'll go to the hardware store tomorrow and see if I can find a nylon screw that is the right size to use on the bottom. The other possibility is that there is some piece of metal that has lodged at the bottom of the motor, and the bottom screw makes contact with it. I can't see in there and I'm not going to pull the motor case apart. I'll just use the nylon screw (voodoo) solution and call it good.
Thank you guys for your suggestions and encouragement.
Strainst, I may contact Mr. Hannon to see if he has any idea what is going on with this motor. Thanks for the link.
If the three lobes you are talking about are the three copper sections of the commutator, they should have continuity. What you don't want is continuity between any of the commutator sections and the shaft of the armature. That would indicate a short between the windings of the armature and the shaft. A good person to contact about motor problems is Bob Hannon at hannon@trainrefs.com. His web site is http://trainrefs.com.
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