Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

[mersenne6]

The American Flyer 3-Piece Bridge No. 112

 

   Flyer introduced the 3 piece bridge in the 1925 catalog.  The bridge consists of a lithoed center span and two lithoed approaches.  Three rail track sections are riveted to each bridge piece.  The track itself is banked with ties that set each rail at different height.

  The catalog cut for 1925 is small (#112 is at the top of the catalog cut) but it does indicate that the center span was orange (Figure 1) and the indistinct markings on the bridge do suggest a pattern which matches the bridge in Figure 2. 

 

Figure 1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Figure 2

 

 

 

In 1927 the catalog used the same printing cut from the earlier catalogs but the color of the center span changed to bright yellow (Figure 3).  This catalog illustration, without changes was shown in the yearly catalog until its last cataloging in 1932 and the center span color matches the bridge in Figure 4.

Figure 3

 

 

 

Figure 4

 

 

 

Thus, the catalog evidence would suggest that for the first two years of its manufacture the No.112 bridge center span was orange and carried an ad for the CM&St.P  Pioneer and Olympian passenger trains complete with Milwaukee Railroad Heralds and that for the rest of its production run it was bright yellow and carried an ad for American Flyer Trains.

  It should also be noted that the bridge could be purchased with clockwork track and it was listed in the catalog as item No. 123. The 1927 price difference between the two was $1.25 for the three rail track and $1.00 for two rail clockwork.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Double Header Set  -1939  - Addendum

There are many sets that American Flyer produced that I like.  I would have a hard time selecting one set that I would call my favorite.  However, I do like this set a lot. 

I have been working at assembling a Double Header Set since I first saw it in the 1939 catalog.  I set my goals fairly high after I aquired the two engines and tenders. 

The individual cars are not that difficult to find, but I decided I wanted to have the original boxes with the cars.  Recently I reached my goal.  I have the three cars that came in the set in their original boxes.

 

There are additional entries about the Double Header set back on pages 15, 33, and 53. 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

Wide Gauge St Paul style Electric outline Locomotive #4637  - addendum

Back on page 77 I added a post about the #4637 and promised to post photos when I finally owned one.  Thanks to a reader of the thread I have been able to add one of these magnificent engines to my roster.  Here are the photos of a fairly recent addition to the Northwoods Flyer Collection. 

 

 

 

I have quoted the original posting on page 77 below:

 

 

Northwoods Flyer

Wide Gauge St Paul style Electric outline Locomotive #4637

The next number in the sequence of St Paul style electrics that American Flyer cataloged is #4637. Unfortunately I don't have an example of this locomotive in the Northwoods Flyer Collection, but here is a photo of page 21 in the 1929 American Flyer Catalog.

The #4637 first appears in the catalog in 1929 and runs through 1933. As the page heading proudly boasts, there are "32 Points of Superiority". 

 

The engine has a ringing bell and a remote control reversing motor.  The color scheme of Green and "Rookie Tan" (as Flyer called it) is very attractive and when the 4637 heads up the Pocahontas set or one of the other sets of matching green and tan cars it is impressive. Notice that the cab has 6 ventilator openings per side where the other St Paul type engines only have 4 per side.

 

The 4637 is one of my collecting goals and as soon as I own one I will edit a photo of it into the thread.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

NWL,

Thanks for the added information on the Empire Express wide gauge sets. I'd love to have either set in my collection.

410 Variations

Sometimes variations turn up in unexpected places. I was going through some of the items that I have stored and I came across something that I had not noticed before.

I have two versions of the # 410 tank car.

 

There is an obvious difference between them.  The domes are different.  The car on the left has a brass colored dome.

 

 

 

The car on the right has a nickel colored dome.

 

 

 

 

 

The really interesting thing was what I discovered on the boxes.  I am fortunate enough to have the boxes for both of them.

 

I was surprised to see what are basically identical cars labeled differently.

 

The car on the left  has 410 Oil Car stamped on the box

 

The car on the right has 410 Tank Car stamped on the box.

 

 

I know that the 410 was cataloged in 1939 and 1940 so I checked out both catalogs and found that the car was called by different names each year.

 

In the 1939 catalog the 410 is called a Tank Car.    It is included in the Double Header Set, the No. 19 Train Set - which is an O Gauge Switcher Set, the No. 318 Train Set, and it was available as a seperate sale item.

 

In the 1940 catalog the 410 is called an Oil Car.  It was cataloged in only one set -  The No.4014 Train Set.

 

Without their original boxes I would not have realized that there were two "different" cars in 1939 and 1940.

 

Enjoying the Worlds Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

 

It is my understanding that the Empire Express standard gauge set was sold in two versions, there is a version with engine, coach, and observation, as shown in the toy train treasury book and there is a version that features engine, two coaches, and observation car. 

 

I have seen two of the versions with the extra coach in them and to my knowledge they both were legitimate sets that did not have an extra coach added.

 

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

dad4685,

to the forum.  I'm glad you made your way to this thread.  I hope you have found some of the information that you were looking for. I am assuming that you have your father's #4685 St. Paul locomotive from your forum name.  You didn't mention which engine you have.  Just a point of information -  when you reply to any entry  (which I think is back on page 77) in the thread it is automatically  posted as the newest entry at the end of the thread.  To include information from the original entry you have to use the Quote option available.  I was able to figure it out.

The #4685 was cataloged in 1929 and 1930 although an illustration with that number is not actually shown either year.  In 1929 it headed up a freight set named "The PATHFINDER"

 

You have to look at the information in the red outlined box to find it however.

 

It heads up the set with a remote control reverse unit.

 

In 1929 it also heads up the passenger set known as "The LONE SCOUT", but again it is only mentioned in the descripion in the red outlined box under the artwork as being available in a seperate set as a remote control reverse model.

 

 

 

In 1930 it again appears in the freight set "The PATHFINDER".  In fact I think that the same catalog art is used - except the price has been reduced from $35.00 ($38.00 for western price) to $33.00 ($36 for western price).

 

It also appears as a seperate sale item.  Again, it isn't pictured, but it is mentioned in red below the seperate sale #4635 which is a manual reverse version.

 

 

It does not appear in a passenger set in 1930.  "The LONE SCOUT" set has been renamed "The NEW LONE SCOUT"  It has a new manual reverse engine - the #4633 in 1930 ( It was the #4635 in 1929), and the #4683 now heads up the remote control reverse engine,

 

That is probably more information than you were looking for, but I like to be thorough.    I hope it helps.

 

Do you have any cars or other equipment?

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dad4685]

Northwoods Flyer

 

Many thanks for your work here.  I am new to this stuff and own the above train set (my dad's - one of the few gifts he received during the Great Depression years).  I searched Google and found your blog and your picture which confirmed my model and some related details.

 

How do I find out more about this train, it's accessories and value?  This is starting to get fun!

 

Thanks.

 

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

 

NationWideLines,

Thanks for the information on the Empire Express set. I re-read Schuweiler's information about the #4753 and he mentions that the set is pictured in Toy Train Treasury Vol. 2   -  The Shempp Collection. I went looking through my library and came across a copy of the book.

 

There is a great two page photo of the "Empire Express" set in the book.

 

And here is an exerpt of what the authors say about it:

 

"The one (set) pictured, sometimes referred to as The Empire Express, was created by American Flyer in the late 1920's for the J.C. Penney Co.  Although not bearing the Penny name it is readily determined to be a "Special" by the locomotive number - #4753 (regularly cataloged models of this type were the #46(00) series; the names of the cars, Knickerbocker and Henry Hudson - which were never assigned listed equipment - and finally by the tomato red color scheme not otherwise used."

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

 

Spankybird,

Thanks for posting the photos of the Wide Gauge electric engines. You filled in some of the missing entries from the preceeding listings.

The 4644 with the red cab and the black frame is Variation B from the New Haven Style Box Cab engines listed back a page. It is in great shape. Is it in original paint?

The 4678 is the engine from the Hamiltonian passenger set. It is an example of the New York Central Style Box Cab electrics.

The blue engine is from the Presidents Special. It is a New York Central Style as well, with pony trucks added. The identifying eagle from the Presidents Special sat on the pedestal on the front truck. It looks like someone has been restoring it. Is there any information on the brass tags on either side of the cab?  I can't make them out from the photos. 

You have some great examples of American Fyer's Wide Gauge production. 

Thanks again for posting the photos.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[spankybird]

[Nationwidelines]

The set was not marketed through Macy's.  The early empire express items were exclusive to JC Penney and were done prior to Penneys having the Nation Wide Lines items be their store brand for a few years in the late 20s / early 30s..  American Flyer tended to name their cars/sets after historical references, often relating to the revolutionary war or other early american figures / events.

[Northwoods Flyer]

New Haven Style Box Cab Electrics

4743 and 4753

As I was doing some research on the New Haven Style Box Cab Electrics in the Wide Gauge line I came across two numbers of engine that I had forgotten about.  Both of these engines were in uncataloged sets according to Schuweiler. I believe that they each came with two passenger cars. I have seen them referred to as "Knickerbocker" or "Empire Express" sets.  

I did some sleuthing on the internet and came up with some photos of a set that was sold at auction.  I'll include them here just for reference.  They are not a part of my collection, but I wish there were. 

This is the 4753. It has a numbered tag on one side

And a tag with Empire Express on the other.

 

The set came with a 4141 Pullman with "Empire Express" in the top letter board and "Knickerbocker" below the windows, and a 4142 Observation with the same "Empire Express" in the top letter board and "Henry Hudson" below the windows. Schuweiler lists the two passenger cars as being from 1927.

 

These are the only photos I have seen of this engine and cars.  If anyone knows anything more about this set please post the information here. The Greenberg guide suggests that the set is reported to have been sold by J.C.Penney.  With all of the references to New York I wonder if it was marketed through Macy's?

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

New Haven Style Box Cab Electrics

4684

The next number in the sequence of New Haven Electrics is the #4684.  It appeared in Flyer catalogs from 1928 through 1931. It is very similar to the 4644 and the 4654 except that it has a remote control reversing motor. Schuweiler lists 5 variations.

This is variation A

Green cab with black frame

Notice that one end has a rod with protruding from it which activates the remote control mechanism.  It should have a knurled nut on it, but that is missing.

 

Variation B

Red cab, black frame

 

Variation C

Green cab, gray frame

 

Variation D

Red cab, gray frame

 

Variation E

Orange cab, bluegreen window frames and doors

 

 

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

New Haven Style Box Cab Electrics

4654

The next engine in the numerical sequence was cataloged from 1928 through 1931.

 

It has an orange cab, gray frame and the accent color of the windows and cab doors has changed to a light blue.  It also has brass flag holders and there are two identifying brass tags on each side; one "4654" and one "Built by American Flyer Lines"

 

 

One of the sets that the 4654 headed up was the "Frontier Town".  It came with quite a few accessories.  I have an entry about that set back on page 74.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

New Haven Style Box Cab Electrics

4653

This number of the New Haven Style appeared only in the 1927 catalog.

 

 

Its a bright orange color with redish orange windows. It has one brass plate per side with black lettering which is common for equipment from1927.

 

Schuweiler describes the 4653 as having black sand barrels which are integral to the frame.  Mine has brass flag holders, which makes me question if this is a marriage of frame and body.  Anyone else have a 4653 with brass flag holders?

 

 

The 4653 is matched up in the catalog with two Bunkerhill pullmans and a Yorktown Observation, which also have red frames around the windows, in The Commander set.  The catalog shows the black sand barrels on the frame

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

AF53,

You have a nice looking set. The pieces are in great condtion.  I was looking through the 1933 catalog and your set looks similar to The Highlander set.  The illustration is different but the description is very similar.  I don't question NWL's identification of a J.C. Penney set since it comes in its original boxes, which are always helpful in identification. Flyer was always willing to package equipment for big accounts that differed from their cataloged sets. How great to be able to identify a store special.  Nice work guys.

New Haven Box Cab Electrics

4644 R/C

The next number in the lineup was cataloged from 1931 through 1933. Its very similar to the 4644 with the addition of a remote control reverse motor.

It must look like the red version of the 4644 above. I don't have an example in my collection

[Nationwidelines]

I guess I should clarify that the setbox that came with my set is marked with a set number that is consistent with several JC Penney sets I have, which is why I believe it is a special set sold through Penney's.

[Nationwidelines]

I picked up a similar set in its original box about a year ago.  I believe that it is a special set that was sold through JC Penney's about 1933-1934.  I am not sure that it matches up to a cataloged set.

I date the set based on it having decals instead of the heat stamped numbers as on the earlier sets. 

 

NWL

[AF53]

These are some items I picked up recently.

I will describe them to the best of my ability, but of course, please make any corrections that are needed. As we all know American Flyer made many uncatalogued sets in the 1930's and so far this looks like one of those.

3309 Locomotive-Tender Combination.

Type X Locomotive 7715 (1934).

Tender Type V Tender (1931-1935)

3150 (c) Baggage Car (1930-1933)

3161 (c) Pullman (1930-1933)

3162 (c) Observation (1930-1933)

I just can't put my finger on a set from the catalogs, maybe someone can help with this? Front and trailing trucks will be replaced soon.

[Northwoods Flyer]

New Haven Style Box Cab Electrics

4644

This number of the New Haven style appeared in the catalog from 1928 through 1932.  I would call it the workhorse of the Wide Gauge Line because it was used in many sets. The Greenberg guide lists seven variations. Most of the variations are relatively minor.  I have three of them in my collection.

Variation A

This variation has a black frame and a green cab.

The primary differences from the 4643 are: (1) brass flag holders on each end of the frame, where the 4643 has black sand barrels that are integral to the frame; (2) a brass overlay on each pilot, where the 4643 is just black, and (3) the 4644 has gold painted windows and doors. This example is a part of a set that has been passed down through our family.  You will also notice that it has solid brass replacement wheels.  I wish I knew the story behind those, but it hasn't been passed down.

 

 

Variation B

 

Schuweiler states that this variation has a black frame and a red cab

 

Variation C

 

Gray frame and green cab

 

The 4644s have two brass tags per side.  They have now changed to a black background (most likely starting in 1928) with brass numbers and letters.

 

Variation D

Gray frame and red cab

 

One of the things that I discovered as I have produced this thread is that the items in my collection are not always as I remember them being.  Upon inspection I realized that this 4644 is a very good repaint - purchased early in my collecting career. It will give you an idea of what this variation looks like but it isn't exactly right.  It has two diecast healights (both reproductions) where 4644s commonly have only one.  This could be an upgrade by a previous owner, or an unusual factory addition.  For now it is a placeholder in the collection.

 

 

 

Variation E

 

Gray frame and green cab.  This variation has two brass plates per side that read "Built by American Flyer Lines"

 

Variation F

 

Gray frame and red cab. This one also has two brass plates per side reading "Built by American Flyer Lines."

 

Variation G

 

Now this one gets interesting.  It has a gray frame and a red cab.  It has two 4644 brass plates per side and one brass plate that reads "Nation Wide Lines" in three lines. I bet NationWideLines might have one of these.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

New Haven Style Box Cab Electrics

The second style of engines that American Flyer had in its Wide Gauge Line was known as the New Haven Style. This style of engine was frequently used in the lower priced sets and it shows up with quite a few different numbers and colors. Lets start with the numerically lowest number, the

 4643

 

The 4643 is an 0-4-0 Box cab as are all of the New Haven Electrics.  It was introduced in 1927 catalog.

The identifying tags on the engine are brass with black lettering, as are most of the tags that year.

 

 

 

 

The 4643 has very little extra trim,  It does not have any brass air tanks and the journal boxes on the engine are an integral part of the frame.  They are painted black like the frame. One of the most distinctive feartures is that it does not have a brass overlay on the cowcatcher.

 

 

The headlight is a removable shroud made of nickel. It has red and green inserts in the headlight, which are missing from my example.

 

 

The 4643 was only cataloged in 1927 in a set called The Eagle.

It included a 4141 Pullman and a 4142 Observation.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

More Odd Ball St Paul style engines

 

NWL,

Thanks for mentioning the Spiegel set.  It jogged my memory.  Schuweilier has a photo of one of the uncataloged Spiegel sets in The Greenberg Guide.  The engine isn't in very good condition but it does show that it is in a brown color that matches the early Presidents Special cars.

I don't have a scanner so this is the best I could do to get a copy of that photo.

     I also took some photos of the examples in the Park book.

 

Here is the brown St Paul engine in a Pathfinder  freight set.

 

 

It doesn't look like either example of the engine has number tags.

 

And since that one turned out pretty well, here is the blue shasta in the photo from the Park book.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

 

Another special color engine I have seen is a short shasta in green.  I do not recall the color of the frame on that one.  However, I do recall it being an original piece.

 

NWL

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

 

I have seen a brown short shasta.  I am not sure it had number plates on it, I just don't recall.  It was sold as a special set through Speigel's and came with the brown litho president special type cars.  I have not been able to get the owner to sell me the set.

 

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

NWL,

Thanks for the information on the blue #4637.  At least Flyer  was keeping the number tags true to the body style.  The blue and red #4637 follow the pattern of 4637's having six venilator openings per side.

The Greenberg guide says that the Park book shows a brown 4683.  The photo is very small and would be hard to reproduce here.  Have you seen that variation or photos of it?

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods Flyer

 

I haven't done any additional research on this set, but I would love to know where it is now. (I have never been to the TCA Museum, but I wonder if it has ended up there.)  I will have to do some reading in the TCA Quarterlies from the past.  I think it is fascinating that special orders were filled.  I know that NationWideLines has a number of Odd Ball pieces in his collection,  So NWL do you have any additional information about this set?

 

 

 

Northwoods,

 

The blue shasta set is not in the TCA museum.  However, this unusual red shasta is in the TCA Museum.  Note that it is not the shorter st. paul engine.

 

 

As for the Blue Shasta, I have heard rumors that at least the engine is in a collection in the NYC area.  I am not sure that the set remains a set as pictured in the Russell Parks guide. 

 

NWL

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

St Paul style Electric Locomotive - Odd Ball

Back in 1971 Russel C. Park published a book entitled American Flyer Wide Gauge.  For many years it was the best reference that you could find about American Flyer's Wide Gauge equipment manufactured in Chicago.

I remember the first time that I saw a copy of the book and I was instantly mesmerized.  Take a look at the front cover:

There you see a blue #4637 and a matching blue #4010 Tank car

 

In the introduction to the book Park says:

"Generally speaking whenever you run into "odd ball" combinations they show up in the Chicago area.  There was much research and model work done at the old Chicago plant. Many small changes or experimantal paint jobs were packaged in special sets and sold at the factory's Christmas retail store.  Many odd lots of surplus inventory were packaged and sold at the same outlet which accounts for the many uncatalogued varieties of trains."

 

On page 28 of the book he has a photo of the entire set which he identifies as a Mountaineer.

The caption reads:

"Blue Shasta...with black frame.  Note the matching color of the tank car.  Ths set was special ordered from the factory by the original owner."

 

I haven't done any additional research on this set, but I would love to know where it is now. (I have never been to the TCA Museum, but I wonder if it has ended up there.)  I will have to do some reading in the TCA Quarterlies from the past.  I think it is fascinating that special orders were filled.  I know that NationWideLines has a number of Odd Ball pieces in his collection,  So NWL do you have any additional information about this set?

 

A number of Odd Ball pieces have been discovered and posted in this thread, even this many years after production ended of Chicago Flyer.  There are still unique things to be discovered.  Its a part of what keeps me hunting.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Wide Gauge St. Paul style Electric outline Locomotive #4685

The final entry in the numbering system for St. Paul style locomotives is the #4685. It appeared in the catalog in 1929 and 1930.

 

It looks very similar to other examples in the series.  The main difference externally is the 4685 brass tag appearing on each side of the cab. Internally it has a remote control reversing motor, but no ringing bell.

 

It has a die cast light at each end, a brass bell, and a large brass pantograph on the top. The ends of the engine are ribbed and there is a brass door in each end.  The brass plate "American Flyer Lines" appears above the doors on each end.

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

Wide Gauge St Paul style Electric outline Locomotive #4683

Sadly I can't seem to find my example of the #4683.  Once I find it I will post a photo of it here.  I wanted to do posts of all of the St. Paul style electrics but there won't be a photo of this one yet, unless someone has an example to post.

The #4683 was cataloged in 1930- 1931, and again in 1933 - 1934. It comes equipped with a ringing bell and a remote control reverse motor.  It looks very much like the other St Paul style locomotives aready posted.  There are two versions, which are created by a very minor variation.  Variation (A) has one 4683 brass tag and one "Built by American Flyer Lines" brass tag per side.  Variation (B) has two "Built by American Flyer Lines" brass tags per side and 4683 R/C is rubber stamped in white on the underside. I'm guessing that Flyer ran out of 4683 brass tags by the time they were cataloging it in the later years. The 4683 was cataloged in quite a few sets during its run.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Wide Gauge St Paul style Electric outline Locomotive #4637

The next number in the sequence of St Paul style electrics that American Flyer cataloged is #4637. Unfortunately I don't have an example of this locomotive in the Northwoods Flyer Collection, but here is a photo of page 21 in the 1929 American Flyer Catalog.

The #4637 first appears in the catalog in 1929 and runs through 1933. As the page heading proudly boasts, there are "32 Points of Superiority". 

 

The engine has a ringing bell and a remote control reversing motor.  The color scheme of Green and "Rookie Tan" (as Flyer called it) is very attractive and when the 4637 heads up the Pocahontas set or one of the other sets of matching green and tan cars it is impressive. Notice that the cab has 6 ventilator openings per side where the other St Paul type engines only have 4 per side.

 

The 4637 is one of my collecting goals and as soon as I own one I will edit a photo of it into the thread.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer