Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

[Nationwidelines]

 Major,

 

The extra clip for the 4th rail power is only found on curved pieces.  The three rail track that you mention, which is also on the fiberboard base, was only sold in 1936 as a separate sale item and is fairly difficult to find, as is the whistle track. 

 

Additional items that are difficult to find on the fiberboard are half sections of track, which came in both straights and curves and I believe are found in both 3 and 4 rail versions.  I have a number of the half sections of 4 rail whistle track.

 

The track mounted on fiberboard does show up on ebay occaisionally in both 3 and 4 rail versions and is most often seen as 4 rail versions.

 

NWL

[Major]

Thanks for the photo. None of the 14 pieces of curve or 18 pieces of straight that I have include that clip on them.  I did notice that a couple of the straight track are made with only three ties instead of the normal four ties. I did not see any of this track at York nor have I ever seen any at other train show I have attended.

[Nationwidelines]

Major/Northwoods,

 

That is the piece of track that I was referring to relating to the whistle power.  I checked the instruction sheet I had, but unfortunately, it was relating to the operation of the whistle motor / lubrication and did not contain any wiring instructions for the track. 

 

I have never actually run my whistle trains on the special track either, but I have tested the whistles and the sound is similar to the billboards.

 

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

Major

Great information on this thread and I read every post.   I finally got enough 4 rail flyer track to make a large oval however I have a question. How was the fourth rail connected to the whistle control button. I do not have any catalogs from the years that the four rail track was made so I am not able to see what was for sale.  Finally my City of Denver and Hiawatha will be able to have their whistles blow while moving.

Major,

Thanks for the compliment Major.  I'm always glad when someone can find useful information on the thread.

I believe that this is the piece of track  that Nationwidelines is talking about.

 

 And this is the track connection for the 4th rail that activates the whistle in the whistling cars/tenders.

 

 

 

 

I have never actually seen a train running on this type of track, nor have I heard one of the whistling tenders.  I just recently got one to go with my hudson.  I think that Natiowidelines is correct in his assumption that it may be a bakelite door bell that is used as the activation button, like the ones used with the billboards.  I'm guessing that you run a wire from the accessory post to the button and then on to the fahnstock clip. When the 4th rail is energized the special sliding shoe on the bottom of the whistling car/tender completes the circuit to the ground.  I'll be interested to see what Nationwidelines finds out when he looks at the instruction sheet.

 

Congratulations on finding enough track to make an oval so you can run your Hiawatha and your City of Denver.  I hope you will post a video when you get them running.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

Charles also sent some photos of the Wide Gauge cars that have couplers painted to match the color of the car that he mentioned in this post.

Mtlowefan

Recently discovered another coupler oddity--couplers painted body color on two wide gauge freight cars (caboose and gondola) I found.  I haven't seen this variation before.

 

 

 

 

 

Chas. Seims

 Thanks again for sending the photos Charles.  I'm sorry for the delay in posting them.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

MtIowefan sent photos to complement this entry that he posted earlier.  Its taken me a while to get myself organized, but here they are finally.

 

 

Mtlowefan

Hi there--I am new to your Flyer website and I enjoy it very much.  I'm not new to train collecting howver, having bought my first Flyer wide gauge car 50 years ago--still have it.  In 1952 Santa brought me a slightly used O gauge Steel Mogul set, and I have loved all Chicago Flyer ever since.

I would like to bring to your attention an interesting variation of your beautiful  Shasta loo.  Several years ago I bought a Cal Stewart in Pasadena a BEAUTIFUL restored set of three Legionaire cars.  I didn't have a 4687 at the time but eventually found  a tired one on eBay--paying too much, of course.

  It had the front and rear couplers like yours--they stepped up as they exited the underframe.  Well, much to my surprise, the loco would not couple to my cars.  The couplers were too high.  The ONLY way to make them couple was to flop them over, so they stepped DOWN, then reattach the tang on the lower side.  I was quite surprised to have to do this, but a friend who has a huge eFlyer collection has several of these locos, and on some the couplers steped up and on others it stepped down. I guess it depended on what cars the loco came with from the factory. 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

Ever heard of this?

Regards, Charles Seims

 

 

Thanks Charles.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

[Nationwidelines]

Major,

 

Some of the curved sections have connecting pins/tabs from the 4th rail that one can attach wires to.  I am not sure what type of button was used to power the whistle.  I have never seen any sort of button associated with the whistle cars/track.  It may in fact be a doorbell style button similar to what came with the Hudson billboard whistle.

 

However, I do have operating instructions for the whistle cars that may show something, as sometimes the instructions have diagrams on them and I know the instructions show all types of whistle cars.  I will look at them on Sunday after I get home from York.

[Major]

Great information on this thread and I read every post.   I finally got enough 4 rail flyer track to make a large oval however I have a question. How was the fourth rail connected to the whistle control button. I do not have any catalogs from the years that the four rail track was made so I am not able to see what was for sale.  Finally my City of Denver and Hiawatha will be able to have their whistles blow while moving.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Accessories

233 (B) Arc Light - Addendum

I am always surprised and delighted when I find an original American Flyer box.  When you consider how old this pre war cardboard is I think it is amazing thta it has survived.  I now have 2 boxes for the 233 Arc Light.

 

 

Does anyone recognize the name Kern's, and do you know where the store was located?

 

 

Of course as much fun as finding the boxes might be, its even more exciting to examine what is inside of the box.

 

 

In this case it happens to be the blue version of the 233(B) Arc Light - the most recent aquisition and variation.  Now all I have to do is find the lighter green version and I will have the entire family.  It would even be greater to find one in a box.

 

Here is what I have assembled so far:

 

 

 Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

 Northwoods Flyer

 

 

[Nationwidelines]

Nationwidelines

Northwoods Flyer

 

I haven't done any additional research on this set, but I would love to know where it is now. (I have never been to the TCA Museum, but I wonder if it has ended up there.)  I will have to do some reading in the TCA Quarterlies from the past.  I think it is fascinating that special orders were filled.  I know that NationWideLines has a number of Odd Ball pieces in his collection,  So NWL do you have any additional information about this set?

 

 

 

Northwoods,

 

The blue shasta set is not in the TCA museum.  However, this unusual red shasta is in the TCA Museum.  Note that it is not the shorter st. paul engine.

 

 

As for the Blue Shasta, I have heard rumors that at least the engine is in a collection in the NYC area.  I am not sure that the set remains a set as pictured in the Russell Parks guide. 

 

NWL

 

 

Back on page 77 I posted a picture of this engine, which is in the TCA museum.  Yesterday I visited the TCA museum and took another look at this engine.  The museum has changed the lighting and display for this engine and it was displayed on a lower shelf with better lighting.  In the better lighting I was able to identify this as a repainted engine due to visible brush strokes on the engine shell.  The shell appeared to be mounted on a very nice original frame, which makes it harder to determine that it is a repaint, when looking through display case glass at a distance.

 

Overall I was disappointed with the quality and display of prewar flyer items in the museum.  Although I realize that the items are donated, many of the prewar flyer items on display were in very poor condition, were labeled incorrectly, and were displayed in a hodgepodge fashion.  There were items that were displayed as sets, that were mismatched items that were from different eras and were never, ever sets.  To think that a museum operated by the TCA cannot display items properly was very disappointing.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Accessories

Crossing Gates  -   236 Crossing Set

I was looking at some other items in my collection the other day and I noticed something about one of the accessories that Flyer put together.  Its interesting to see what they did to combine existing accessories into something new and different to bring to the market.  There wouldn't be much expense in creating something new, and I would assume that it would use up existing stock.  The item that I noticed specifically was the the #236 Crossing Set.

 

It was cataloged from 1933 - 1935.  Its made up of a combination of a #214 Watchman's Tower, a #206 Danger Signal with a light added to it and a blue standard; and what caught my attention was the use of the #2021 Crossing Gate. All of these are mounted on a red base.  I thought I had posted photos of most of the common crossing gates using this style, and then I recognized the #2021 in use here.

 

 

 

 

The # 2021 is a common accessory and it is used here in combination with several other common accessories to make a toy with plenty of play value.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

Crossing Gates

NationWideLines,

Thanks for the clarification on the Crossing Gates.  I went back to the catalogs and to the examples in my collection to see if I could do a better job of identifying and showing the different crossing gates.

This is the accessory page from the 1925 catalog

 

This is the #2022 crossing gate with light.    It is cataloged from 1925 through 1927.

 

 

 

 

 

This is the #2021 Crossing Gate.  It is cataloged from 1925 through 1933

 

 

My 1925 catalog only has black and white illustrations.  The cover is in  color.  I'm not sure if that is original or if I have a reproduction, the catalog isn't marked as a reproduction.

 

In 1926 the illustations of the accessories have tinting added.

 

 

This is the #2022 from my collection.

 

 I left the christmas tree bulb in it because that is the way I bought it, and because it makes me smile.

 

This is the #2021 in my collection.

 

 

This is the #2021 variation in teal (blue green) that I have.

 

 

And a side by side view.

 

 

In 1928 the #2222(A) appears in the catalog and will continue to be cataloged through 1934

 

Please  notice that the placement of the light has changed.  It now is perpendicular to the arm, rather than parallel to the arm.

 

 

 

I don't have an example of this crossing gate with a red base in my collection yet, but I do have an example in the same teal (blue green) color.

 

 

 

 

I examined it more closely and discovered that it has been rewired.   So I changed the position of the lamp to being above the arm from below - as I photographed it in the previous posting.

 

In the 1936 catalog Flyer introduced a crossing gate with a different design, but they used the same number.  This is the #2222 (B)  New Crossing Gate with Light that was cataloged from 1936 through 1939.

 

 

And the example that I have in my collection.  Notice that the light has moved below the arm.

 

 

I think that this now correctly identifies the different crossing gates.  As soon as I find a #2222 (A) with a red base I will post it.

 

Its amazing to see the number of changes that a simple accessory went through over the years that it was cataloged.  I also wonder what the story is behind the teal colored variations.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Charles,

In order to post photos to the thread you will have to open an account with an online photo hosting site like Shutterfly or Photobucket.  (I use Shutterfly)  Once you have uploaded your photos to a hosting site you can then post them here on the thread. With Shutterfly its as simple as copying the photo and pasting it into the body of your post.

If you prefer, you can send the photos to me by email and I will post them. I have sent my email to you through the message system here on the site.

I have never seen couplers that match the body color of the car.  I assume they must be green and red. The cars were usually painted seperately and hung to dry or put on racks before they were assembled. I would be interested in seeing photos.  The only time that I have seen something painted to match the body color of the car is on the Pocahontas cars where the trucks are painted green to match the color of the roof.  I have seen photos of several America and Pleasant View passenger cars that used the same green trucks.

Thanks for posting,

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Mtlowefan]

I will take some photos in the next day or two.  I don't have a layout but will set some track up so there isn't an issue with flange depth.  What address do I use to forward photos?

Recently discovered another coupler oddity--couplers painted body color on two wide gauge freight cars (caboose and gondola) I found.  I haven't seen this variation before.

Chas. Seims

[Northwoods Flyer]

Charles, 

Let me offer my welcome to the thread.    I'm glad that you are enjoying it.  Its always good to have another Flyer enthusiast join the ranks and share their experiences and observations about American Flyer.

You have made an interesting observation about couplers.  I have not paid much attention to them prior to this.  I know that different coupler heights are typical on certain series of cars in Lionel Standard Gauge engines and cars, but I had not noticed that in Flyer Wide Gauge.

I took a look at the pieces in my collection.  I have not had access personally to other collections nor have I seen many pieces in person that are not in my collection, so keep that in perspective in regard to my responses.

All of my electric outline Wide Gauge engines have two male couplers (one on each end), as illustrated below by one of the  #4644 engines  in my collection.

 

 All of the passenger cars and freight cars in my collection have a female coupler on one end and a male coupler on the other.

The engines all have couplers that step up once they have cleared the the frame of the engine. Just as you noticed on the Shasta.  I did notice that many of the cars have couplers that were bent out of alignment which I think comes from storage or handling.

What I did discover was that the step up that the male coupler takes varies among the types of cars.

 

     The male coupler on my Golden State Tender (from my Warrior set ) has a very minimal bend to it.

 

     The passenger cars on my 1928 President Special Set (the 19" cars in Rookie tan) also have a minimal upward bend to them.

 

      The one passenger car that I have from the 1927 President's Special (the 19" cars that are blue and lithographed) also has this same minimal bend to them.

 

I'm not sure why your Legionaire Cars (they are 19" in length aren't they?) would not mate with the Shasta.  There is a spacer or support on many of the passenger cars on the bottom that places the coupler at a different height.  Could it be that the spacer was left out when they were restored?  I don't doubt that there are different heights of coupler, especially if you have observed them in your friend's collection.

 

As far as reversing the coupler.  I have seen examples on eBay where the tang of the coupler is facing up instead of down, but I just assumed that someone had reassembled it that way in error.

 

You have raised an interesting question.  Does anyone else have any insight into Charles observation?

 

Is there any chance that you can post some photos of your cars and engine?

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Mtlowefan]

Hi there--I am new to your Flyer website and I enjoy it very much.  I'm not new to train collecting howver, having bought my first Flyer wide gauge car 50 years ago--still have it.  In 1952 Santa brought me a slightly used O gauge Steel Mogul set, and I have loved all Chicago Flyer ever since.

I would like to bring to your attention an interesting variation of your beautiful  Shasta loo.  Several years ago I bought a Cal Stewart in Pasadena a BEAUTIFUL restored set of three Legionaire cars.  I didn't have a 4687 at the time but eventually found  a tired one on eBay--paying too much, of course.  It had the front and rear couplers like yours--they stepped up as they exited the underframe.  Well, much to my surprise, the loco would not couple to my cars.  The couplers were too high.  The ONLY way to make them couple was to flop them over, so they stepped DOWN, then reattach the tang on the lower side.  I was quite surprised to have to do thi, but a friend who has a huge eFlyer collection has several of these locos, and on some the couplers steped up and on others it stepped down. I guess it depended on what cars the loco came with from the factory. 

Ever heard of this?

Regards, Charles Seims

 

 

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

 

To further distinguish the 2022 from the 2222 crossing gate, the catalog artwork shows the variation you show in red, which has the light socket mounted above the arm, as the 2022 and the variation you show in blue, which has the light socket mounted in the arm, as the 2222 crossing gate. 

 

NWL

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

 

The early versions of the 2222 are identical to the 2022 crossing gate produced from 1925-1927.  I have a boxed example of a 2022, with the box label showing a picture of the crossing gate.  There is also the 2021 crossing gate, which is similar to the early version, but it is non-lighted and does not feature the shorter arm.  The 2021 was cataloged from 1925-1933.

 

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

Thanks Nationwidelines,  I am always willing to be on the hunt for another variation. 

Accessories     2222 Crossing Gate    Addendum

Back on page 30 there are a number of postings about accessories.  One that we covered was the 2222 Crossing Gate.  Schweiler documents two versions of the crossing gate in Greenberg's Guide to American Flyer Wide Gauge

2222 (a) is cataloged from 1928 - 1934  (Correction Edit - This is actually a photo of a 2022 crossing gate cataloged from 1925 - 1927)

(You have to love those Christmas tree bulbs)

 

2222 (b) appears in catalogs from 1936 to 1939

 

 

I became aware of another variation through Nationwidelines.  He posted a variation on another site several months ago.  I have been looking for an example since then, and I finally found one.

 

Lets call this  2222(C)

 

 

As you can see it has the same shape as variation (a) but the color is blue green - actually closer to teal.  This is the third example of this color crossing gate that I have seen.  The color is very close to a set of passenger cars that I have.

 

 

 

And here is the whole 2222 family

 

 

I wonder what time period it comes from?  I'm guessing that it is from the same 1928 - 1934 time period as version (a)

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

 

Version B comes in 3 variations.  There is blue, the green you show, and then a light lgreen version that appears to be the later version.

 

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

Accessories

233 Arc Light

There are two double lamp posts that use this number.

Version (A) was cataloged from 1933 - 1935

 

 

This version is blue and 7-3/8" tall.  It is made of stamped steel with a  2-11/16" circular base and a flat upright..  It is blue in color.

 

 

It is described as having brass bulb holders and shades, but my example has nickle plated bulb holders and shades.

 

 

Version (B) was cataloged from 1936 - 1939.

 

 

It comes in green or blue.  It is 8-1/8" tall and has a 3" square stamped steel base.  It is described as having nickel bulb holds.  (This makes me wonder if my blue version (A) might be a transition piece.)

 

 

Version (A) and Version (B)

 

 

I'll be on the hunt for a blue example of Version (B)

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

 

[Southern Colorado Marx Flyer]

Thanks Northwoods.  A triple-header?  Yes!!!  Be sure to post that if you do.

I'll see how this project goes.  You may remember that I am not really a collector nor do I have an interest in restoring these trains to their original appearance.  I just enjoy cleaning and fixing them so that they function and kinda like the scratches and dents.

In re-looking at this project I can surely see why I put it all in a box.  There is much to do.

The cars all are in need of cleaning and maybe some straightening here and there.  But they do look to be pretty much intact.  I don't think the gondola was part of the set, but it looks to go well with the other cars.  I also have a Borden car with the right couplers.

I thought I had both tenders, but see now that the second (dummy) tender has 3/16" trucks.  I just found one that will work if I put a truck with a link coupler on the rear.  Not sure the truck styles would match then, but I'll see what I can find.

The lead 2-4-2 locomotive is in pretty good shape.  The wheels are all good.  Right now it just hums, but I have usually been able to get the motors to work.  I haven't pulled it apart yet.  I don't know yet if it is the problem, but I am not a fan of American Flyer e-units.  They are often balky if they work at all.  I sometimes just bypass them.

The trailing (dummy) locomotive looks to me from your pictures and from the advertisement to be a  2-4-4 (401?).  Here are the suspects I have for that locomotive (and a lot of work to do here).

Pretty much all of them need pilot wheels and some need drive wheels. Pretty easy to find.

The top two are most likely the ones I will choose from.  The top one is missing one of the linkages on one side.  Neither one runs at the moment, but will not need to.  Both have freely turning drive wheels.  I think all I really need to do is remove the double gear that meshes with the drive wheels.  One of the pictures on your thread shows that the dummy still has brush tubes - though I will pull out the brushes.  I have a curly-Q coupler that I can mount to the front of the locomotive.  Dare I use both to triple-head?  I may wait to see if you try it, Northwoods. 

The third from the top is interesting.  It runs well and has a whistle that blows when it is running.  I think that would drive me crazy after a while.

The bottom one has a gutted motor which is fine, but the drive wheels aren't matched and it is missing all of its drive linkage. It is least likely to be useful.

So, I'm going to have to order some parts and get to work on it.  I'll try to update as I go.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Southern Colorado Marx Flyer,

Its good to know that I'm not the only one that is attracted to the Double Header set. I've even considered picking up another dummy and tender so that I can have the world's only Triple Header set.  .  I hope that you will post some photos of your repair/restoration work on your set.  Your other repair postings have been very helpful.

Flashing Signal #203 and #223     Addendum

Back on page 70 NationWide Lines posted some photos of the #203 and #223 signals when we were cataloging wide gauge accessores.  I recently aquired a #223 in blue so I thought I would post it with my #203 Flashing Signal

The #203 without the operating lever is on the left in green and the #223 with the operating lever in blue is on the right.

 

A few more photos of the #223

 

 

 

 

 

This leads me to believe that the #203 probably comes in a blue version as well, particularly when the catalog shows the Flashing Signal in blue

 

 

I've re-posted NationWide Lines' entry from page 70 below to keep the information together.

 

                                                         +++++++++++++++++++++++

Since Northwoods brought up the difference of the banjo signal with and without the operating arm, I thought of the following similar accessory, which was marketed as the 203 Flashing Signal (without operating lever) and 223 Flashing Signal (with operating lever).  Like the 202 and 222 Banjo Signal, this item first appeared in the 1930 Flyer catalog.

There are significant differences between the 203 and 223 versions of this accessory.  The 203 version does not have the moveable arms inside the top and the rear of the top is not punched out.  I have shown closeups of the 203 and 223 versions to show the operating mechanism.

 

223 on the left and 203 on the right in photo below

 

 

 

 

Front of 203

 

 

Rear of 203

 

 

Front of 223

 

 

Front of 223 with flashing arms half closed

 

Rear of 223 with arms up

 

 

Rear of 223 with arms down

 

 Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Southern Colorado Marx Flyer]

I just love that double-header set.  I picked up several of the pieces of it quite a while back, then got sidetracked and put them in a box.  Some of it needs repair if I remember right and the "dummy" may just be a regular 401.

Your re-posting of this set has lit a fire for me to get back to fixing it up.  Thank you.

I don't recall seeing the bridge and approaches before.  I am curious how well they worked as they look a bit steep.  Were the trains able to negotiate the bridges? 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Great documentation on the lithographed bridges folks.  I have had both bridges in my collection for a while.  Neither of them came with track, so I am assuming that previous owners removed it.  I have not been able to find a set of approaches to go with either bridge.  - or I should say I have been out bid on the sets of approaches that I have seen on ebay.    I haven't posted photos of them because I wanted to be able to show what the entire bridge ensemble looked like.   Is there any variation in the brickwork lithographed on the bridge?  Thanks mersenne6 and AF53 for posting the photos.  Here are a couple of shots of the Milwaukee Road version of the bridge on the Blueboard Central.

 

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[mersenne6]

Thanks NWL - it just goes to show that sometimes even when you read something you don't get it right. 

[Nationwidelines]

Ray,

 

It is banked because Flyer was only making banked track.  Why would they make special track just for the bridge?  You are not thinking in terms of cost effectiveness, after all Flyer was cheap.

 

NWL

[AF53]

I've often wondered why the track on this bridge is banked. Just doesn't make sense. Any ideas as to why?

[Nationwidelines]

mersenne6

The American Flyer 3-Piece Bridge No. 112

 

 

 

  It should also be noted that the bridge approaches could be purchases separately and were listed in the catalog as item No. 123. The 1927 price difference between the two was $1.25 for the three piece and $1.00 for just the approaches.

 

Mersenne,

 

Actually, you are mistaken about what Catalog # 123 refers to.  It does not refer to just the bridge approaches being sold separately.  Rather, it refers to the same bridge as the 112 bridge, but with 2-rail O gauge wind-up track instead of 3 rail O gauge electric track.  The 1927 catalog artwork that you show even denotes that fact as it states "For Mechanical Track Only, Cat. No. 123"

 

NWL

[AF53]

These are great pieces! I happen to buy this set last year and was thinking how this really represents American Flyer in that time period.

"Sold & Known Everywhere East-West-South-North And Foreign"